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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: bluesofa on Sunday 03 December 17 16:52 GMT (UK)
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I need help to find the marriage of David Clark(e) and Caroline Louisa Gee, which I think occurred around 1879-1880 in Liverpool. There's so many good records for Lancashire that I feel I must be missing something.
Caroline Clark is shown as a widow with her children in the 1901 Census. A mixture of Catholic and Church of England baptism records show the father to be David, and Caroline to be formerly Gee. The family can be traced back to the 1881 census shortly after the first child, Alexander, was born. However, I can not find a record of David and Caroline's marriage.
I've put references below, but some observations
- The census records suggest Alexander's mother Caroline was born 1859-1860 (i.e. approx 20 when Alexander was born), while David was born 1846-1850
- They also suggest the whole family was born in Liverpool, though family lore suggests they came from Scotland.
- The 1881 census records David as Daniel
- Alexander's birth was registered in 1879, while his Catholic baptism record shows (separately to the baptism) the birth year as 1880.
- The military service record of David and Caroline's youngest son Richard shows Alexander as a full blood relation (as are all the other brothers/sisters listed, though one brother isn't listed)
I guess it is possible Caroline was previously married before David, and used her previously married name. Alternatively, either David's and/or Caroline's mother may have remarried, and so different surnames were used at the marriage.
Any thoughts as to what I may be missing, where/how to look next, would be very much appreciated.
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Census Records (all born Liverpool)
- 1881 Census; 73 Prince Edwin St; Clark, Daniel (31 yrs, Coach Smith), Careline (21), Alexander (2); Piece: 3657; Folio: 9; Page: 11
- 1891 Census, 70 Shaw Street; Clark, David (44, Coach Maker), Caroline (31), Alexander (12), David (10), Arthur (7), Mary (5), John (4), Ester J (1 6/12); Piece: 2942; Folio: 121
- 1901 Census, 64 Shaw Street; Clark, Caroline Louisa (42, widow), David (19), Arth James (17), Marion (15), John (14), Edith (12), James Gee (9), Rd Frank (6), Alexander (22, married); Piece: 3480; Folio: 48; Page: 27
GRO References, Mother's Maiden Surname Gee (I haven't confirmed with certificates yet)
- Alexander Clarke Q2 1879 8b 527
- David Clark Q2 1881 8b 383
- Arthur James Clark Q1 1884 8b 300
- Marian Caroline Louisa Clark Q1 1886 8b 339
- No John Clark (who, of course, is the key ancestor, but consistent with family lore that his birth was not registred)
- Edith Julia Clark Q4 1889 8b 283
- James Gee Clark Q3 1892 8b 238
- Richard Frank Venables Clark Q4 1894 8b 288
Catholic Baptisms,
St Francis Xavier (Francisci Xavarii); Liverpool, Lancashire, England, after Ancestry.com
Parents either David/Davids and Caroline/Carolinae formerly Gee
- Alexander Clarke: b 11 Mar 1880, bap 23 Oct 1880, Godmother Elizabeth Nolan
- David Clarke: b 15 Apr 1881, bap 6 May 1881, Godmother Elizabeth Short
- Arthur Jacobus Clark: b 1 Nov 1883, bap 16 Nov 1883, Godmother Mathilda Heenan
- Maria Catherina Carolina Louisa Clark: b 25 Jan 1886, bap 13 Feb 1886, Godmother Agnes Neyland
- Joannes Clark: b 6 May 1887, bap 1 Jun 1887, Godmother Emma Benton
- Editha Julia Clark: b 3 Oct 1889, bap 14 Dec 1889, Godmother Brigitta Lythe
- No James Gee
- Richardus Franciscus Clarke, b 11 Nov 1894, bap 5 Dec 1894, Godmother Margarita Maria FitzGerald
Church of England Baptisms, after Ancestry.com
St Peter, Liverpool
- Arthur James Clark, bap 30 Dec 1883, parents David (Coach Smith) & Caroline Louisa, Everton
St Augustine, Liverpool
- John Clark: bap 29 Dec 1889, parents David (Coachmaker) and Caroline Louisa, 95 Everton Road
- Edith Julia Clark: bap 29 Dec 1889, parents David (Coachmaker) and Caroline Louisa, 95 Everton Road
- James Gee Clark: bap 8 Jun 1892, parents David (Coachmaker) & Caroline Louisa, 64 Shaw St, Liverpool
Military Service Records
- Alexander Clark, Royal Engineers, Reg/No 378864
- David?
- John?
- James Gee Clark, Army Service Corps, Reg/No 049775
- Richard Frances Clark, Cheshire, Reg/No 10164
I've had mixed success at tracing the family forward in the 1911 census
- Alexander Clark m Ellen Parr (?) daughter Caroline Louisa Clark (b ) e.g. RG14-23106-149
- Arthur James Clark m Ellen Poole? (1910) e.g. Class: RG14; Piece: 17996; Schedule No 131 (same address as on Richard's military records)
I speculate Caroline may have remarried (Alexander Clark), Class: RG14; Piece: 22077; Schedule Number 148
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I've had a look at FreeBMD which covers BMDs in England and Wales. I cannot see a marriage between your two parties between 1875 and 1885.
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From freebmd
Births March qtr 1861
Caroline Louisa Gee West Derby 8b 289 mmn Howard
Marriages December qtr 1854
James Gee Liverpool 8b 279
Julia Ann Howard
Family Search shows 1.10.1854 at Our Lady & St. Nicholas & St. Anne Liverpool
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Death - David Clark aged 53 June qtr 1901 West Derby 8b 312
Only one Liverpool birth for a David Clark - March qtr 1847 on freebmd
Only one for a David Clarke - Sept qtr 1850
Scottish 1851 has 34 entries for David Clark born 1846-1850 and 3 for Clarke. A couple of others have middle initials
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If you believe she married in 1909 to Alexander Clark, then she married as Caroline Louisa Gee, which could imply that she had not been married before.
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She pretends to be younger in 1911 than she really was because her husband is younger?
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW3P-RHF
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www.cheshirebmd.org.uk shows it was a civil marriage so cannot be looked up
Have you tried researching Alexander as it seems rather strange her firstborn son is Alexander and she was with David Clark and marries an Alexander Clark
Could be that David and Alexander were related although there is quite an age difference - David 1848 and Alexander 1875
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Could be his birth
Births June qtr 1877
Alexander Clark West Derby 8b 432 mmn Craw (possibly Crow)
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I wonder if David Clark was already married. There is an 1871 census entry for a David ( transcribed as Davies on Ancestry) Clark age 24, a Coach Smith, born Liverpool with wife Mary E age 19 and daughter Abler? Age 24 mths. Matching marriage seems to be David Clark to Mary Ellen Squire in 1870 in Liverpool. Select marriages on Ancestry indicate marriage on 17/1/1870 with David's father being Alexander Clark and Mary Ellen's father being Walter James Squire. Don't see any obvious birth for the daughter under Clark(e) or Squire and no sign of any of them in 1881.
Isobel
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No Clark/Squire births but 2 Squire/Squire
ADA ELIZABETH ANN SQUIRE March qtr 1866 WEST DERBY AND TOXTETH PARK Volume 08B Page 345
LOUISA JANE SQUIRE March qtr 1867 WEST DERBY AND TOXTETH PARK Volume 08B Page 354
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Also Isabella Ritchie Squire 1869 West Derby.
Isobel
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I wonder if David Clark was already married. There is an 1871 census entry for a David ( transcribed as Davies on Ancestry) Clark age 24, a Coach Smith, born Liverpool with wife Mary E age 19 and daughter Abler? Age 24 mths. Matching marriage seems to be David Clark to Mary Ellen Squire in 1870 in Liverpool. Select marriages on Ancestry indicate marriage on 17/1/1870 with David's father being Alexander Clark and Mary Ellen's father being Walter James Squire. Don't see any obvious birth for the daughter under Clark(e) or Squire and no sign of any of them in 1881.
Isobel
Here is the 1870 marriage:-
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-896P-KDRK?cat=122430
Blue
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A great shame that bluesofa has not come back to this thread, even though he/she has been on-line since posting :'(
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Many thanks everyone.
CaroleW - it does look like you may have found the birth of "my" Caroline Louisa. I'm hoping to find the marriage record with David to confirm Caroline's father's name to support this.
I'm only speculating that Caroline re-married. Having her father's name from her marriage to David may also help to support or refute this.
I hadn't tried to explore David's pre-Caroline life, as Isobelw suggests. Having a possible name for David's father, plus an occupation (thank you Blue70), may help in finding David's marriage to Caroline.
However, as BumbleB says, Caroline and David's marriage doesn't appear to be within freebmd (under those names at least). I guess Chempat could be right and they were not married. However, I'm still hoping a marriage record is there to be found somewhere...
P.S (while I've been online, I haven't had a chance to consider your responses until now - instead helping children to bed, making pack lunches and generally getting ready for the week ahead - please do not take it as a sign that I'm not interested or appreciate all your help)
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Could be his birth
Births June qtr 1877
Alexander Clark West Derby 8b 432 mmn Craw (possibly Crow)
But could this be that one's death?
Deaths June quarter 1895
Alexander Clark age 18 W. Derby 8b 334
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No Clark/Squire births but 2 Squire/Squire
ADA ELIZABETH ANN SQUIRE March qtr 1866 WEST DERBY AND TOXTETH PARK Volume 08B Page 345
LOUISA JANE SQUIRE March qtr 1867 WEST DERBY AND TOXTETH PARK Volume 08B Page 354
These two children are with mother Charlotte in 1871 3824/36/18
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Certainly could be his death - age fits
1891 has 2 x Alexander Clark entries born Liverpool (excluding the one born to David & Caroline)
1878 - parents John W & Grace
1879 - parents Cummings and Martha
Buying the 1909 marriage cert will confirm Caroline was a spinster and also her fathers name
It will also give Alexander's fathers name
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I think I may have to get the Alexander & Caroline marriage certificate, just to see if it contains any further clues. If I'm lucky it may say whether Caroline was a widow and if I'm really lucky her former name as Clark. That will help support identifying Caroline's parents, but I will still be at a loss for David.
Possibly there was a son (rather than daughter) of David and Mary?
CLARK, ALEXANDER SQUIRES, Q4 1870, West Derby & Toxteth Park 8b 419
I didn't find any other Clark/Squires births around this period in West Derby, plus a quick search didn't find this Alexander in the 1871 census (so perhaps he has been mis-recorded). However, there are also at least 2 deaths recorded for Alexander Clark, age 0, in West Derby in Q4 1870.
So perhaps David did name his first born son from each marriage Alexander. However, I feel like I need a stronger link between the David of David & Mary and the David of David & Caroline before drawing too many conclusions.
Many thanks for all your help,
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This death seems to fit for Caroline
December 1938 Wallasey 8a 696
Caroline L Clark 76 yrs
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Baptism of Alexander in 1870 with parents David and Mary. David is a Coach maker, so looks like a match. Don't think this is the child shown in 1871, who is listed as female and 24 months ( so born prior to the marriage).
Isobel
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There are two deaths shown in GRO for Alexander Clark, 0 yrs, West Derby
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The 1861 census has a David Clark born Liverpool 1847 son of Alexander, a Bootmaker born in Scotland, and Mary. Also in 1851 as David Clack. Not with the family in 1871.
Isobel
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Certainly could be his death - age fits
1891 has 2 x Alexander Clark entries born Liverpool (excluding the one born to David & Caroline)
1878 - parents John W & Grace
1879 - parents Cummings and Martha
Buying the 1909 marriage cert will confirm Caroline was a spinster and also her fathers name
It will also give Alexander's fathers name
Cummings Clark was a younger brother of the David Clark who was born in 1847 ( i.e. also a son of Alexander and Mary)
Isobel
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Many thanks for the suggestions and help. I've been trying to get this straight in my mind, here is my attempt.
Family Group 1
As Isobel identifies, a David Clark b about 1847 is with his family (father Alexander a boot/shoemaker born in Scotland) in the 1851 Census (2183/25/42) and 1861 Census (2680/16/36), but not in 1871 (3780/135/36).
David appears to have married Mary Ellen Squire on 17 Jan 1870; consistent address and father with the above census records - Alexander's occupation given as Toolmaker (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-896P-KDRK (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-896P-KDRK) - thank you Blue70)
David's occupation is given as a CoachSmith.
David and Mary had a son, Alexander, baptised 21 Dec 1870 in Everton; father David, a Coachmaker; St. Peter's Church, Liverpool (thank you Isobel)
Alexander may have died before the 1871 census (thank you heywood)
In the 1871 census there is a David and Mary Clark with a 24m daughter (i.e. born pre-marriage of David Clark and Mary Squire). We are uncertain of who the daughter is, Ada and Louise Squire appear to be with mother Charlotte in 1871 (3824/36/18). Possibly Isabella Ritchie Squire (b 1869).
The fate of this daughter and Mary is currently unknown.
David's age is consistent with the David in family group 2, and his Scottish Ancestry with family stories.
Family Group 2
A David Clark married Caroline Louisa Gee and had the family as detailed at the start of this thread.
Freebmd doesn't appear to show the marriage record between the two parties (thank you BumbleB)
David died aged 53 Q2 1901 8b 312 (thank you Carole)
Family Group 3
A Caroline Louisa Gee married Alexander Clark in a civil marriage in 1909 (as shown at www.cheshirebmd.org.uk (http://www.cheshirebmd.org.uk), thank you Carole)
As Chempat describes, they appear in the 1911 census, age 46 and 36 respectively (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW3P-RHF (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW3P-RHF)) The children are consistent (name, age) with Caroline's younger children from family group 2.
Carole shows the 1891 Census only has two Alexander Clarks in Liverpool (excluding the one born to David & Caroline)
1878, parents John W & Grace
1879, parents Cummings and Martha
The second Alexander appears to be related to David Clark from family group 1. Cummings Clark married Martha Steward 30 Jan 1876 (Liverpool Registers after Ancestry), father Alexander Clark, Tool maker (i.e. same occupation as shown for David & Mary Ellen Squires). Cummings and Martha had a son in Q1 1879 (8b 416). Therefore Cumming's son Alexander is David's nephew (if I've followed Isobel's logic)
Caroline L Clark died Q4 1838, age 76; Wallasey 8a 696 (thank you heywood)
Please do let me know if I have got any of that wrong, and apologies if I missed anyone. Thank you all very much for your help. This is certainly great progress.
The ages of Caroline and Alexander in 1911 are not consistent with the other records, but as chempat suggests, that may be due to the husband being younger.
So I think I will purchase the 1909 certificate as a christmas present to myself and hope to find evidence to support Caroline in family group 3 being the same Caroline as in family groups 2, and also that Alexander is the son of Cummings Clark and therefore the nephew of the David in family group 1. Caroline's father's name in the marriage may also support her being the daughter of James Gee and Julie Ann Howard as identified by Carole.
If there was a marriage record for David and Caroline then the father's names and occupations may support/refute grouping these families together. I guess I was hoping there may be a source I hadn't searched, but perhaps I'm looking for something that doesn't exist.
I note David's signature when marrying Mary Ellen has a distinctive D, so if I could find a signature for the David who is with Caroline, and it is similar, then that may also support them being the same David.
Thanks again for all the help.
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It looks as though Alexander Stewart Clark, son of Cummins Clark marries Louisa Boase in 1900 and they are together in censuses.
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How very inconsiderate of him. Feel like I'm spiraling back.
Perhaps my best approach is still to try and confirm Caroline in Family Group 2 is the same as Caroline in Family Group 3, and then hope to find a link between Alexander and David.
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1909 marriage certificate is needed, just for some hard facts (we hope).
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The link below shows the burial of the Caroline who died in 1938. The address given is 50 Grosvenor Street Liscard (Wallasey CB). This is where an Alexander Clark is living in 1939. He was born in 1880 so quite an age gap between him and Caroline. There was an Alexander Clark (mother: Aitchison) born Q2 1880 in West Derby Registration District Vol: 8b Page 508.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-992H-FHLC?cat=1027047
Blue
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Thanks for this Blue70. I've found the probate record, but there doesn't appear to be a will (Administration 11 July 1939).
I will order the certificate of Caroline and Alexander's marriage and report back. Hopefully it will allow links to be made back to David and Caroline. In the meantime I will continue to try and find that elusive marriage record of theirs.
Thanks again to all.
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In the meantime I will continue to try and find that elusive marriage record of theirs.
There isn't one. The 1909 marriage shows her as Gee and that will be her fathers surname on the cert. If she had married David - she would have re-married as Clark and not Gee
Unless she lied - her previous marital status should be spinster - not widow
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?
Alexander Clark died age 77 in June quarter 1957 in Wallasey, Cheshire
Probate to Martins Bank
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In the meantime I will continue to try and find that elusive marriage record of theirs.
There isn't one. The 1909 marriage shows her as Gee and that will be her fathers surname on the cert. If she had married David - she would have re-married as Clark and not Gee
Unless she lied - her previous marital status should be spinster - not widow
I'm not certain this Caroline is the same Caroline who was with David, I guess that was what I was hoping to find some evidence for. I think sometimes a certificate can have both a maiden name and a former married name, but do you think, because this isn't shown in the cheshirebmd index, this isn't going to be the case here? It is perhaps a bit of a long-shot.
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There is only one birth for a Caroline Louisa Gee - see my earlier reply
Nobody who has read this post can find a marriage for a David/Daniel Clark or Clarke to a Caroline Louisa Gee so it's highly unlikely there was one
She married Alexander Clark as Caroline Louisa Gee - not Clark. Given she was with David for over 15yrs - if they had married I think it's more likely she would have married as Clark not Gee
The only way to sort it out is as advised previously - get the 1909 marriage cert and take it from there
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Okay. Thank you.
And thank you to everyone else for your replies. All much appreciated.
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The link below shows the burial of the Caroline who died in 1938. The address given is 50 Grosvenor Street Liscard (Wallasey CB). This is where an Alexander Clark is living in 1939. He was born in 1880 so quite an age gap between him and Caroline. There was an Alexander Clark (mother: Aitchison) born Q2 1880 in West Derby Registration District Vol: 8b Page 508.
Blue
Alexander Clark was born to John and Agnes Clark.
1881 3676/26/46
1891 2977/135
1901 3505/6/4. He is a Barman
There is a marriage 1910 - Agnes Clark to Thomas Ringland. They are in 1911. She looks to be mother.
Death 1937 Agnes Ringland, registered Wallasey.
Probate to Alexander Clark, Insurance Agent.
Agnes seems to have had a hard life with babies dying and husband at a young age.
Thomas Ringland dies 1918 so a shortish marriage there too. His probate indicates a tidy sum of money so hopefully she had a comfortable later life. This is just ‘by the way’ but interesting.
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Thank you heywood. It is interesting. I will get the certificate, and follow up on Alexander to see if I can find a link back to David.
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Certificate is back.
Alexander Clark; 38yrs; Bachelor; Assurance Agent; 63 King St, Liscard; father John Clark (deceased); Stonemason
Caroline Louisa Gee; 40yrs; Spinster; -; 63 King St, Liscard; father James Gee (deceased); Fringe and Tassel Maker (Journeyman)
Witnesses, John Robinson, Isabel Bauskill
So supports there is no marriage between David and Caroline to be found.
I'll follow the leads in above thread relating to Alexander and Caroline. The children in the 1911 census, as well as Caroline's name/age, suggest this is the same Caroline who was with David. If I believe that, then the certificate gives me a lead to her parents. I'll just have to try and find another way to identify David's parents.
Many thanks again everyone.
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I gave you Caroline’s parents in reply 2
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There is this couple and marriage. I haven’t read the rest of the thread to see what was decided though :-\ ::)
I wonder if David Clark was already married. There is an 1871 census entry for a David ( transcribed as Davies on Ancestry) Clark age 24, a Coach Smith, born Liverpool with wife Mary E age 19 and daughter Abler? Age 24 mths. Matching marriage seems to be David Clark to Mary Ellen Squire in 1870 in Liverpool. Select marriages on Ancestry indicate marriage on 17/1/1870 with David's father being Alexander Clark and Mary Ellen's father being Walter James Squire. Don't see any obvious birth for the daughter under Clark(e) or Squire and no sign of any of them in 1881.
Isobel
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I gave you Caroline’s parents in reply 2
Yep, thank you Carole, that's what I meant by following the leads in above thread relating to Alexander and Caroline. I'll also follow Heywood's posts which give Alexander's parents.
With regards to David, there is a possible previous marriage. That David's age is consistent with the David who was with Caroline, and his Scottish Ancestry is consistent with family stories. However, I'm not sure that is sufficient to be reasonably confident he is the same David.