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Family History Documents and Artefacts => Graveyards and Gravestones => Topic started by: LEMB on Wednesday 06 December 17 21:29 GMT (UK)

Title: Where would you find the grave
Post by: LEMB on Wednesday 06 December 17 21:29 GMT (UK)
Hi,

I'm going absolutely mad trying to find Thomas's grave!
I think I've found everything.. but the grave and it's really bugging me!!

I have attached Thomas Roberts burial image link,
Thomas was born in 1845, Water St Bangor.
Died 3rd May 1921 in Conwy and it was Edward Jones (Work House Master) who signed his death to say it was witnessed.

I know his little brother is buried in St Mary's, Conwy.. but where the hell is thomas  :(

It's driving me nuts!!!  :D

https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbprs%2fwal%2f4394848%2f00650&parentid=gbprs%2fd%2f895046160%2f1
Title: Re: Where would you find the grave
Post by: cemetery friends on Thursday 07 December 17 05:59 GMT (UK)
The workhouse master probably had an arrangement to bury inmates in a cemetery in the locality of the workhouse in what was known as a pauper's grave. Such graves were not allowed to show the names of the deceased on a marker.
Title: Re: Where would you find the grave
Post by: solidrock on Thursday 07 December 17 07:14 GMT (UK)
There are lots of Thomas Roberts buried in Conwy but can't find one that died in 1921.

http://www.gravestonephotos.com
Title: Re: Where would you find the grave
Post by: LEMB on Friday 08 December 17 18:42 GMT (UK)
The workhouse master probably had an arrangement to bury inmates in a cemetery in the locality of the workhouse in what was known as a pauper's grave. Such graves were not allowed to show the names of the deceased on a marker.

from the death certificate it states that the address is "12 waen terrace, Conwy, Caernarvonshire, Wales" and it sounds/looks like just a house? i can't believe there could be a possibility that he could have been buried with no mark or name :(
Title: Re: Where would you find the grave
Post by: LEMB on Friday 08 December 17 18:43 GMT (UK)
There are lots of Thomas Roberts buried in Conwy but can't find one that died in 1921.

http://www.gravestonephotos.com

i've seen some thomas roberts buried too but not exact to the dates this one died! :(
Title: Re: Where would you find the grave
Post by: cemetery friends on Friday 08 December 17 19:55 GMT (UK)
Workhouses were not identified as such on official documents such as death certificates but the street address was used to avoid a family being embarrassed by their circumstances, the same applied to a burial arranged by the workhouse. Sometimes the grave was marked with a wooden or brass marker with a serial number but often over the years these disappeared. I do not know if the address was a workhouse but in some cases a family would be paid an allowance to house a "half way" inmate. I think the fact the workhouse master was mentioned means there was a connection and by law the name of a deceased was not allowed on a grave marker.
Title: Re: Where would you find the grave
Post by: Elwyn Soutter on Saturday 09 December 17 05:22 GMT (UK)
In 1904, the Registrar General decided that where a child was born in the workhouse, there need no longer be any indication of this on the birth certificate. Instead, the place of birth could be recorded as an ordinary street address, either a real one or a pseudonymous one invented for the purpose. From around 1920, the same practice was later also adopted for the death certificates of those who died in the workhouse.

http://www.workhouses.org.uk/addresses/
Title: Re: Where would you find the grave
Post by: Guy Etchells on Saturday 09 December 17 07:09 GMT (UK)
The workhouse master probably had an arrangement to bury inmates in a cemetery in the locality of the workhouse in what was known as a pauper's grave. Such graves were not allowed to show the names of the deceased on a marker.

from the death certificate it states that the address is "12 waen terrace, Conwy, Caernarvonshire, Wales" and it sounds/looks like just a house? i can't believe there could be a possibility that he could have been buried with no mark or name :(

What was know as a pauper grave was simply a common grave, that is a grave not purchased as a private grave in which unrelated people may be buried.

Most cemetery regulations forbid the use of headstones on these common graves as only a few of the people buried in such graves had relatives who could pay for an inscription on the headstone.

The cemeteries also used these common graves to advantage by locating them between purchased plots, this gave the appearance that the cemetery was more spacious (or less packed) than was really the case.

You need to look in the plot register to see who was buried where.
I would also suggest looking in Bangor; many workhouses in a Union still used the policy of returning the body of the deceased to their parish of origin even though the Union was by this time considered to be “one parish”

Cheers
Guy
Title: Re: Where would you find the grave
Post by: BumbleB on Saturday 09 December 17 07:21 GMT (UK)
laurenbailey - you say that the death certificate gives an address of 12 Waen Terrace, Conwy.  You also attached a link to the burial register, where Thomas Roberts is shown as having lived at 12 Waen Terrace.  Did you not also notice that of the 16 entries on those 2 pages of the burial register, 8 of them had the address of 12 Waen Terrace?

Title: Re: Where would you find the grave
Post by: BumbleB on Saturday 09 December 17 07:25 GMT (UK)
If you use this link, and then choose C from the alphabetical list, you will see that 12 Waen Street, Conway was the address of the local Workhouse.

http://www.workhouses.org.uk/addresses/c.shtml
Title: Re: Where would you find the grave
Post by: cemetery friends on Saturday 09 December 17 09:53 GMT (UK)
See http://www.workhouses.org.uk/addresses/c.shtml which confirms the address was a workhouse.
Title: Re: Where would you find the grave
Post by: LEMB on Saturday 09 December 17 18:38 GMT (UK)
Workhouses were not identified as such on official documents such as death certificates but the street address was used to avoid a family being embarrassed by their circumstances, the same applied to a burial arranged by the workhouse. Sometimes the grave was marked with a wooden or brass marker with a serial number but often over the years these disappeared. I do not know if the address was a workhouse but in some cases a family would be paid an allowance to house a "half way" inmate. I think the fact the workhouse master was mentioned means there was a connection and by law the name of a deceased was not allowed on a grave marker.

i'm so gutted to hear that! his brother died young so he had a grave stone in St Mary's with poem on the head stone, it's been kept really well so i did wonder if Thomas would have had the same but i think by the time he died in 1921, his mum and dad had already died by that point so it wouldn't surprise me if he's been buried within the work house :(
Title: Re: Where would you find the grave
Post by: LEMB on Saturday 09 December 17 18:43 GMT (UK)
The workhouse master probably had an arrangement to bury inmates in a cemetery in the locality of the workhouse in what was known as a pauper's grave. Such graves were not allowed to show the names of the deceased on a marker.

from the death certificate it states that the address is "12 waen terrace, Conwy, Caernarvonshire, Wales" and it sounds/looks like just a house? i can't believe there could be a possibility that he could have been buried with no mark or name :(

What was know as a pauper grave was simply a common grave, that is a grave not purchased as a private grave in which unrelated people may be buried.

Most cemetery regulations forbid the use of headstones on these common graves as only a few of the people buried in such graves had relatives who could pay for an inscription on the headstone.

The cemeteries also used these common graves to advantage by locating them between purchased plots, this gave the appearance that the cemetery was more spacious (or less packed) than was really the case.

You need to look in the plot register to see who was buried where.
I would also suggest looking in Bangor; many workhouses in a Union still used the policy of returning the body of the deceased to their parish of origin even though the Union was by this time considered to be “one parish”

Cheers
Guy

thank you for the information, how do i look for a plot register? i didn't think it was possible!

thank you. :)
Title: Re: Where would you find the grave
Post by: LEMB on Saturday 09 December 17 18:44 GMT (UK)
laurenbailey - you say that the death certificate gives an address of 12 Waen Terrace, Conwy.  You also attached a link to the burial register, where Thomas Roberts is shown as having lived at 12 Waen Terrace.  Did you not also notice that of the 16 entries on those 2 pages of the burial register, 8 of them had the address of 12 Waen Terrace?

Yes i did notice a lot of other people died at the same address and i had tried to find out if they had a grave at all even if thomas did not have one, but i had no luck in finding them :(
Title: Re: Where would you find the grave
Post by: LEMB on Saturday 09 December 17 18:46 GMT (UK)
If you use this link, and then choose C from the alphabetical list, you will see that 12 Waen Street, Conway was the address of the local Workhouse.

http://www.workhouses.org.uk/addresses/c.shtml

thank you! i'd not seen that before, thank you for letting me know :)
Title: Re: Where would you find the grave
Post by: LEMB on Saturday 09 December 17 18:46 GMT (UK)
See http://www.workhouses.org.uk/addresses/c.shtml which confirms the address was a workhouse.

thank you! i'd not seen that before, thank you for letting me know :)
Title: Re: Where would you find the grave
Post by: BumbleB on Saturday 09 December 17 21:29 GMT (UK)
You do also have to remember that Workhouse did not always mean just that.  A lot of hospitals were attached to a Workhouse, and it may just have been that Thomas was in the Hospital, rather than in inmate.

Title: Re: Where would you find the grave
Post by: Guy Etchells on Saturday 09 December 17 22:29 GMT (UK)

thank you for the information, how do i look for a plot register? i didn't think it was possible!

thank you. :)

You have to contact the owners of the cemetery (possibly the local council, through their crematorium office) who will hold the plot register.

Cheers
Guy
Title: Re: Where would you find the grave
Post by: LEMB on Sunday 10 December 17 13:02 GMT (UK)
You do also have to remember that Workhouse did not always mean just that.  A lot of hospitals were attached to a Workhouse, and it may just have been that Thomas was in the Hospital, rather than in inmate.

Yes i think it was used as a hospital at some stage :) when i have looked on the records, i think he was a Butcher there.
Title: Re: Where would you find the grave
Post by: LEMB on Sunday 10 December 17 13:03 GMT (UK)

thank you for the information, how do i look for a plot register? i didn't think it was possible!

thank you. :)

You have to contact the owners of the cemetery (possibly the local council, through their crematorium office) who will hold the plot register.

Cheers
Guy

what cemetery would it have been under if he was in the workhouse? thank you!
Title: Re: Where would you find the grave
Post by: BumbleB on Sunday 10 December 17 16:23 GMT (UK)
Your best bet is to contact Conwy Archive Service, based in Llandudno.   The burial register you found on FindMyPast does not indicate which church performed the burial service.

Title: Re: Where would you find the grave
Post by: clivejones on Monday 28 December 20 22:05 GMT (UK)
laurenbailey - you say that the death certificate gives an address of 12 Waen Terrace, Conwy.  You also attached a link to the burial register, where Thomas Roberts is shown as having lived at 12 Waen Terrace.  Did you not also notice that of the 16 entries on those 2 pages of the burial register, 8 of them had the address of 12 Waen Terrace?

Yes i did notice a lot of other people died at the same address and i had tried to find out if they had a grave at all even if thomas did not have one, but i had no luck in finding them :(


I think I can confirm that 12 Waen Terrace was some kind of institution as my Great-Grandfather also was registered at that address at his death and he went insane and was taken away from his family after he tried to burn the house down!
Title: Re: Where would you find the grave
Post by: Guy Etchells on Monday 18 January 21 17:33 GMT (UK)

thank you for the information, how do i look for a plot register? i didn't think it was possible!

thank you. :)

You have to contact the owners of the cemetery (possibly the local council, through their crematorium office) who will hold the plot register.

Cheers
Guy

what cemetery would it have been under if he was in the workhouse? thank you!
That depends on the workhouse, some buried people who died in the workhouse in the local cemetery or the churchyard of the parish church, others would return the deceased to their place of settlement.
Cheers
Guy