RootsChat.Com
General => Armed Forces => World War Two => Topic started by: yattonharry on Friday 08 December 17 15:10 GMT (UK)
-
Warrant Officer Class II
JOHN ALFRED MARTIN #1054535,
115 Field Regt., Royal Artillery who died age 38 on Monday 14 October 1940
John met his death on the 14th October 1940 aged 38 years at Warren Point, Isle of Sheppey.
He was the Son of Edwin and Emily Jane Martin of Kingston Bagpuize and husband of Margaret Alice Martin, of Peckham, London.
I cannot find anything else about him, such as what he was flying or how he was killed. Tried the kenthistoryforum, but not received a response at all and tried newspapers. Can any one here help please?
I have some detail of him here: http://kingston-bagpuize.com/war/martin.html
-
Death certificate for cause of death?
-
I see no mention of an air accident in the CWGC detail or in the link you posted. Warren Point Isle of Sheppey is also rather elusive?
MaxD
-
What evidence is there that it was a flying accident when he was in the Royal Artillery.
Are you sure it's not Warden Point Isle of Sheppey ?
-
Death certificate for cause of death?
Looks like:
Deaths Dec 1940
Martin John A 38 Sheppey 2a 3375
Can find nothing in newspaper archive on findmypast.
-
His service record will be held by the MOD; it might give details on his death.
-
Well eh! no to a death certificate as I have loads of other men and women to research for our village war dead. I was told that he was killed at Warden [ yes sorry typo -- oops have even got Warren in website!! :-[ :( ] Point, Isle of Sheppey by one person who should have known.
Thanks Milliepede for the death, even so. Thanks also Josey and Nanny Jan
What a great reaction though - this list is great for responses.
I'll alter facts to what I do know and can prove!
-
You would think that somewhere his death detail is shown. He was twice mentioned in Despatches.
???
-
His RA Casualty Card has a box for cause of death - empty! His entry in the RA Attestation book has cause of death (attached) but what the word in brackets is ?
His local newspaper, if published, rather than a Kent newspaper, would be one to seek out. His residence is given as Wantage on the card.
There is only one MID (Dec 40 published for Mar-Jun 40) to his name in the RA Honours and Awards and the Gazette.
-
Fld perhaps= in the field.
-
Of course.
I am a tad uncomfortable with my first guess so I have deleted it.
MaxD
-
Thank you so much MaxD. Not sure where this card was sourced which I would quite like to know and understand. What is an MID please? RA Attestation = Royal Air Force Attestation?
-
RA = Royal Artillery. He was in the army, not the RAF.
There are lists of wartime aircraft crashes on Sheppey here (http://www.kenthistoryforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=520.0). Nothing on 14 October 1940.
-
Many thanks for that information. Thanks I have scoured that site and as you did not find anything for that date.
http://www.kenthistoryforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=520.0
-
The RA Casualty Cards and the RA Attestation books (joining up details) are on FindmyPast. The latter shows he joined the army in 1922. MID is Mention(ed) in Despatches. They are published in the London Gazette and there is only one entry for him, in the list that relates to the pre-Dunkirk period. Only his record will show what he was doing on Sheppey in October 1940. His unit is given as 115 Field Regiment, the RA Museum and Library at Larkhill (sd@artillerymuseum.com) would be able, against a fee, search out where they were at the time. I would be wary however. Men very often changed units, particularly after Dunkirk and records didn't always catch up with the changes straight away. Only his service record (£30 from MOD) (or death cert £9.25 or £6 for a pdf) will, as said before, give the real story.
MaxD
-
The war diary of 115 Field Regiment for that period is at TNA http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C787583
-
What evidence is there that it was a flying accident when he was in the Royal Artillery.
Are you sure it's not Warden Point Isle of Sheppey ?
Warden Point, Isle of Sheppey had a Sound Mirror.
Regarding the Radar Early Warning (by wireless detection type means) that enemy aircraft were approaching this phrase banded about on TV gives the wrong impression for 1940 and is totally misleading.
The 1940 Summer files at TNA, Kew, indicate that only 50% of aircraft approaching the English coast (over the Sea) were actually identified.
In other words 50% of the time our UK Defences only detected AIRCRAFT WERE APPROACHING our coasts, some of whom were FRIEND (returning bombers, fighters, coastal and other friendly aircraft) and/or FOE.
Despite all this misleading radar hype that we knew who were coming (we didn't always know), I suspect that this Sound Mirror might still be in use in 1940 and/or the installation would be guarded.
http://www.andrewgrantham.co.uk/soundmirrors/
Even getting a Death Certificate might not explain, as some simply have "War Operations" for Cause of Death (which includes both friendly incidents and operational incidents and I don't always trust CWGC to be correct either, as official Unit records are occasionally contrary to CWGC), although a Death Certificate might give the nearest road name and say in a field, or so many miles and a compass bearing from a main town.
Sometimes, the only clue is the Informant. However, I have discovered that ground civilians killed by RAF aircraft crashing on their houses have been reported by relatives, despite the aircrew deaths and a civilian aboard the aircraft (in the same incident) being reported by the RAF Unit who held the 'aircraft on charge' to the Registrar of the England & Wales Registration District.
If you get a Fighter Command grid reference let me know, I hold some Geographical Section General Staff maps for England (basically 1" OS, but with the Fighter Command grid overlay printed).
These should still be in ZOS 3 at TNA, Kew.
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_cr=ZOS%203&_dss=range&_sd=1939&_ed=1945&_ro=any&_st=adv
Mark
-
Very informative, Max & Mark, thank you.
I didn't know about MID being in the London Gazette [will now look for my mother's cousin who didn't talk about this but it was mentioned at his funeral earlier in the year] or about Sound Mirrors or about the censorship on certificates. My new knowledge for today, thanks.
-
Searching for the exact phrase "John Alfred Martin" on ukpressonline.co.uk brings up just one hit: in the Kent Messenger for 9 November 1940, page 2. I don't currently subscribe so that's as far as I can go with it.
-
Shame - there are quite a few Kent newspapers on findmypast but not the Messenger.
-
Thanks to everyone for all the information. Shaun I have joined and used the phrase John Alfred Martin, Kent Messenger and the date and I have 'no records found'
Contacted ukpressonline.co.uk
Thanks.
-
Hi jim, That again is what I was told by someone also researching this chap. Yes it is WarDen Point. I made an error and tried to correct one of my posts, but it doesn't seem to have worked - ie carried forward.
-
have joined and used the phrase John Alfred Martin, Kent Messenger and the date and I have 'no records found'
Try just searching for the phrase "John Alfred Martin"
-
Hello
Something which appears to have been missed is WO. II (B.S.M.) J. A. Martin
http://kingston-bagpuize.com/war/martin.html
Battery Sergeant Major
1. Max and some of the other ex Army Military will be hotter on this than me, but does this mean he was attached to a Gun (or Gun Laying) Battery?
2. Burial looks to be at a Church, have you also checked the Churchyard / Parish Burial Register. Very occasionally they have extra words (above what IWGC / CWGC note in their records), like body from ___________ or found washed up at ____________ etc., or Abode might his Base or temporary residence.
The Church by 1940 were required to record the burial too.
Every record needs checking? Is it online anywhere and don't use full names.
-----------
Parish Burial Registers sometimes have additional snippets?
The Churchyard Sexton Book (if it survives) may say where the body was from?
Mark
-
The only unit information we have is given as 115 Field Regiment RA which was a regiment equipped with field guns that is those guns that were employed to support the infantry in the field as opposed to anti-aircraft, anti-tank, coast or mountain guns among others. As I suggested before, without seeing his record I would be wary of assuming he was on Sheppey with this regiment. I find no evidence of field regiments on Sheppey which did have coast guns and AA guns. The regiment was in the BEF and presumably he, but not the guns, were evacuated from France perhaps at Dunkirk. He could well, as suggested earlier, been re-assigned to another regiment.
There are also problems with the bio information in the Kingston-Bagpuize piece. If he joined the army in 1939, then he re-joined as he had signed on in 1922 (RA Attestation register). He did not get two MIDs (or if he did they aren't both published) - the Dec 1940 LG reference is correct, an MID for "distinguished service in connection with operations in the field Mar-Jun 1940".
Again, as remarked before, apart from the title of this thread, nowhere does the fact that it was an air accident appear, not in the Kingston-B piece, not in the CWGC detail, not on his RA casualty card or in the attestation book. There are, for me at least, too many loose ends and unless the Kent Messenger comes up with something concrete, I would say, again, that without his record then I would prefer to leave speculation to others.
MaxD
-
Hi Shaun J
have joined and used the phrase John Alfred Martin, Kent Messenger and the date and I have 'no records found'
Try just searching for the phrase "John Alfred Martin"
Please see that I used the phrase "John Alfred Martin" : I have used onoly the date: I have used only the year - but I still get as attached.
-
I can see that the attachment shows Kent Messenger (WW1) is there simply a Kent Messenger or
Kent Messenger(WW2) ?
-
See below for the search parameters that I used and the result
-
Yeh! Great. I subbed incorrectly. Eyesight not what it was, I must have missed the option. Hopefully uknewsonline will change. :D
-
Hi Everyone who helped me over this. Thank you so much ShaunJ as I now have the article. Please see attached. I cannot get this any larger unfortunately.
Killed in a road accident! He has also been promoted.
Many thanks to you all.
-
Sorry attached did not seem to show.
-
Mark, Thanks,
My research has been quite thorough and John Alfred Martin is buried in our church nearby his family home.
2. Burial looks to be at a Church, have you also checked the Churchyard / Parish Burial Register. Very occasionally they have extra words (above what IWGC / CWGC note in their records), like body from ___________ or found washed up at ____________ etc., or Abode might his Base or temporary residence.
The Church by 1940 were required to record the burial too.
Every record needs checking? Is it online anywhere and don't use full names. ----------
Parish Burial Registers sometimes have additional snippets?
The Churchyard Sexton Book (if it survives) may say where the body was from?
-
No promotion. "Warrant Officer Class 2" is quite consistent with being a sergeant-major in the Royal Artillery.
-
Agreed, beat me to it!
Rank was Warrant Officer Class II (became WO2, Arabic numerals, in the 60s/70s if memory serves me right), appointment in that rank was Battery Sergeant Major, form of address, Sergeant Major.
Well done Yatton harry - evidence is all!
MaxD
-
Thanks so much ShaunJ and MaxD, You learn something new everyday. Old as I am, I didn't know these terminologies.
Sorry to have had the wrong info to start with even so.
-
How interesting!
I wonder who put forward the suggestion that he had poison in his stomach, requiring this adjournment and his stomach to be analysed?
It refers to a fatal road crash whilst motorcycling, but this adjourned summary doesn't say whether or not any other vehicle was involved?
----------
I went to an Inquest once and gave evidence, but another person was badgering me (in the intervals) to say he had illegal drugs in his system.
I refused to have words put in my mouth and refused to contaminate my evidence with such an unsubstantiated claim.
After the Inquest I was sent the PM and Toxicology Report which confirmed:- there was NO illicit or illegal substance in his body, only the correct amount of a prescribed medication.
----------
This makes me wonder why people turn up at an Inquest or inquiry and attempt to suggest something, proved by the evidence to be totally incorrect.
Mark
-
Hi Mark,
I thought that was an odd statement too. We shall never know, but can't help feeling that something else was going on here.
-
Hi Mark,
I thought that was an odd statement too. We shall never know, but can't help feeling that something else was going on here.
Unfortunately, we are not party to all the facts yet.
I suspect that some other party is involved in this fatal road crash, and/or involved in the payout of compensation and may be trying to suggest it was suicide?
The Coroner wanted to be quite sure it was Accidental Death, probably for insurance or compensation reasons.
Mark