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General => Armed Forces => World War Two => Topic started by: K8T on Monday 11 December 17 20:53 GMT (UK)
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There are a couple of items on a WW2 service record I need help with.
The first is written in the record:
"Receives pay of appointment wef 30-12-40 Vice Molyneux to Y List"
What would the Vice Molyneux to Y List mean?
The second is written in the record:
"Posted to 52nd Training Regt RAC on 6-10-42
Authority: Hofor 'A' T.P.M. A.5058
2-10-42"
I understand that Hofor = Home Forces, but what does the 'A' T.P.M. A.5058 mean?
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Many thanks
K8T
:)
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The first part means that he took the job of someone called Molyneux who had been placed on the Y List meaning he (Molyneux) has been posted away from the regular run of jobs for one of a number of reasons (most common were long term sick, transfer to another corps or job outside the regiment). Vice someone means replacing someone.
The second is undoubtedly the office reference on a letter dated 2 Oct 42 that provided the authority for the move. It is really of no significance.
MaxD
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What would the Vice Molyneux to Y List mean?
Molyneux is the name of the person(officer?) who has been placed on the Y list, so Vice Molyneux infers a vacancy has been created which has been filled by the holder of the service record you are looking at.
The Y List consisted of non-effectives: sick, detention, leave pending discharge etc
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Many thanks MaxD and tonepad, that's a great help.
Another point is 52nd Training Regiment RAC were at Bovington in October 42.
they 'Proceeded to Port of Embarkation to Join Draft Serial R W O G A' Is RWOGA the name of a place or an acronym? It then states 'Embarked UK & *TOS' The letter before the 'T' looks like an 'E' but the letter may have been moved up on a stamp and should not be there at all. I'm not sure.
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By the way, he disembarked in Egypt.
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Drafts (bodies of men moving abroad) were given 5 letter draft recognition codes, meaningless except at the time. There is a way of possibly identifying which ship the draft took (in his case) to Egypt. Do you have his date of departure from UK and/or arrival in Egypt?
Embarked UK = left UK [on the ship whatever_].
TOS - Taken on strength =- there should then be a unit or a force and a date which he joined (which he was taken on to the strength of) . Look for MEF or BNAF - Oct 42 was slap between the two (Middle East Force and British North Africa Force). Look out for disembarked,
Often best solved by posting a scan of the original.
MaxD
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He was at Bovington up until 25 October 1942. Doesn't appear to have a date of embarkation but disembarks in Egypt 2 January 1943. I would have thought the embarkation must have been some time after October 42 as it wouldn't take that long to get to Egypt.
It then states that he is in the Middle East and is Posted to 3rd County of London Yeomanry from XIVA on 12 January 1943.
I'll try looking for arrivals in Egypt on that date.
Thanks
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It looks as if there may have been a period away from his normal unit prior to posting to 3rd CLY. The X iv (a) (usual way of writing it) is another of these list accounting methods covering men moving from a depot or a training unit or sometimes from a spell in hospital.
You may have this already but you could dovetail him into the history of 3 CLY here http://www.warlinks.com/armour/3_cly/3cly_42.php
MaxD
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From the information you have it looks likely that the soldier in question (I didn't note a name) sailed on convoy WS24 which sailed from UK on 29th October and reached Suez via Bahia in Brazil and Durban in South Africa on various dates in January. One vessel from this convoy, The "Felix Roussel" left Aden on 28 December 1942 and docked in Suez on 2 January 1943. I have more information on the movements of this convoy if it is of interest. It a coincidence for me that this convoy included SS Aronda, the same vessel my father sailed in in April 1941 for Suez in convoy WS8A.
CP
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Thanks MaxD, I wondered what the XIVA meant. It was definitely written in capitals, but take note that it is not the usual way.
The history of 3CLY is very interesting a much appreciated
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Thanks CPercival. I would love to have more information on the convoy. He must have been on board that ship.
I haven't mentioned the soldier's name as he is a relative of a colleague. There are a few things I am trying to work out but have deciphered most of the abbreviations.
He appears to have been involved in Operation Husky - The Allied Invasion of Sicily. But he appears to have been moved from 'Manallel' Manquell' (writing is a little unclear) to Husky Force on 29 June 43. (The 'n' could be an 'r').
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If you want to post a scan of the bit that is unclear (plus a bit round it to see the context) we may be able to clarify.
MaxD.
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I'll try and scan it in and post as soon as I can.
Thanks
K8T
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Troop convoys round the cape 1940 - 1943. For most of the war transit of the Mediterranean was considered too hazardous for the transport of troops for the Middle East and Far East. They were therefore transported around the cape in convoys known as the Winston Specials. The subject of your enquiry seems likely to have travelled in convoy WS24. This was assembled as follows: Six vessels were assigned, "Athlone" and "Stirling Castle" sailing from Liverpool, "Empress of Scotland" from the Clyde and "Arawa", "Tamaroa" and "Largs Bay" from Avonmouth. They were joined by a stores ship, "Indochinois" from Newport. In view of the fact that our man was joining from Bovington it is likely that he embarked in Avonmouth on either "Arawa" or "Largs Bay". ("Tamaroa" was only going as far as Takoradi in West Africa). All together the convoy was carrying 18,213 troops. 7,525 for the Middle East, 4,017 for India and Ceylon and 2,948 for Iraq. "Tamaroa" carried just 1,755 for Takoradi and Freetown. Embarkations began at Avonmouth on 26 October and the vessels were under way on 28th. They joined up with the Liverpool and Clyde ships off Orsay and the convoy sailed on 29th.
Their normal first replenishing stop would have been at Freetown but, unlike the previous convoys in the series, WS24 was to use Bahia in Brazil almost certainly due to the allocation of their escorts to support of the Operation Torch landings in North Africa but also as Brazil had recently joined the allies. This decision cannot have been taken lightly though as it added 1,500 miles and 5 days to the voyage between UK and Durban. Arrival in Durban was on the morning of 4th December.
The routine was then to transfer troops from the liners, "Empress of Scotland" and "Largs Bay" to other vessels in Durban for onward shipment so as to allow the liners to return to the UK. Here they landed 4,264 for the Middle East among others. 1,656 were also landed for the middle East from the Liverpool vessels which were carrying on to Bombay. "Arawa" was to continue with her 1,655 troops to Suez along with 4 other troopships which had taken on those others disembarked from the liners. These others were "Aronda", "Ekma", "Ascanius" and "Felix Roussel". These all left Durban on 13 December as a combined convoy, "Arawa" as WS24A and the other four as CM36. "Ekma" subsequently detached for Mombasa with an East African contingent. "Aronda" and "Ascanius" were cleared at Suez on 3rd and 4th January and "Felix Roussel" left Aden on 28th December and arrived Suez on 2nd January. "Arawa" was last to leave Aden on 30th arriving Suez on 3rd.
I would speculate therefore that our soldier embarked at Avonmouth on "Largs Bay" (If it had been "Arawa" he would have stayed on there and not arrived at Suez until 3rd), and transferred to "Felix Roussel" in Durban. If you Google SS Felix Roussel there are pictures of the ship.
CP
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MaxD
I'm having trouble attaching. I have reduced the size and am reposting. I hope you can read it.
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MaxD
This is the lower half
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Many thanks CP for your information on the convoys. I is very interesting and explains why it took so long to reach their destinations.
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I'm afraid I can't find anywhere (it is a place I'm sure) that looks like the name in the record. Looking at the 3 CLY diary together with your man's record dates, it seems that D Squadron became, for a short period, 40 Sqn RAC - there is a war diary for just the month of Jun 43 and that they went off, attached to 2 Bn Highland Light Infantry for some months in 1943, rejoining the regiment proper in Oct 43 when they were by now in Italy. The answer may lie in the 40 Sqn diary http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C1010163 or in the 2 HLI diary for the period http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C1011037 There is probably more of interest in this period which the diaries may clarify.
Sorry not to have got that one!
MaxD
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Thank you MaxD. The information you have given is great. Maybe I'll have to get a copy of the diaries from the National Archives.
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Have you got any idea what CDS means.
He was posted to 257 CDS - I know FDS is Field Dressing Station but not sure what the 'C' stands for.
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While FDS does mean Field Dressing Station, in this context the abbreviations are:
FDS - Forward Delivery Squadron
CDS - Corps Delivery Squadron
These were different levels of Royal Armoured Corps units that provided men and tank reinforcements. Men would sometimes “stage” in such a unit between unit postings. In this case, he leaves 3 CLY and is “parked” with 217 FDS as 1st reinforcement, goes to North West Europe with them and later leaves them for the Royal Scots Greys. Later leaves the Greys and goes to 257 CDS on the X iv list, may have been sick or simply awaiting transfer to another unit. Other parts of the record may explain that.
MaxD
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Thanks MaxD that makes much more sense. In that case does FAP mean something other than First Aid Post then?
'Att FAP'
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I was waiting for that - sorry ;)
For all purposes - context again, he was being attached (att) for pay. food, accommodation - all purposes to the second unit. Not posted to them, attached is a temporary thing and unless he was going to be part of the permanent staff of the FDS, while with them he was attached.
MaxD
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I was waiting for that - sorry ;)
For all purposes - context again, he was being attached (att) for pay. food, accommodation - all purposes to the second unit. Not posted to them, attached is a temporary thing and unless he was going to be permanently posted to 2 HLI (in this case), while with them he was attached.
Later in his record we find him att FAP 271 FDS and the reverse comes later - CTBA 271 FDS Ceases to be attached.
MaxD
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Thanks MaxD, you have been so helpful and have cleared up the confusion. It is much appreciated.
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you are most welcome.
MaxD
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Hello, I'm wondering if you ever got the the bottom of 40th SQN and Marakel - I'm working on my grandfathers record at the moment and they have these same activities and dates.
Thanks.