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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Durham => Topic started by: tjh1989 on Monday 11 December 17 22:33 GMT (UK)
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Hi
I've just received the attached birth certificate. As you can see it lists:
- father = George Gardiner
- mother = Jane Gardiner formerly Gardiner
I'm thinking that its either a Gardiner marrying a Gardiner (unlikely!) or that the mother was born out of wedlock? Although if it's the latter why would you take the name of your husband!?
Thanks
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Hi there,
I see nothing odd or unlikely about Jane's maiden surname being same as her married surname. Have you looked for the marriage, or for births of siblings for the baby being registered?
JM
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I have cousins who married in the 1800's so it is not impossible that John and Jane were related in some capacity.
Have you been able to find any other info on them ? Is there a marriage certificate ?
Dorrie
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Hi there,
I see nothing odd or unlikely about Jane's maiden surname being same as her married surname. Have you looked for the marriage, or for births of siblings for the baby being registered?
JM
You don't think it's unusual that a man and a woman with the same surname should marry? It's not exactly as common as 'Smith'!
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This looks like the marriage
Marriages Jun 1848
GARDINER George Weardale 24 363
GARDINER Jane Weardale 24 363
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There's another daughter, Elizabeth, according to the 1851 census:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGJP-VP6
And, for what it's worth, I don't think it's at all unusual?! ;D
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No it's not unusual. I have first cousins marrying in my grandfather's family. Both had the same surname as their fathers were brothers.
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No it's not unusual. I have first cousins marrying in my grandfather's family. Both had the same surname as their fathers were brothers.
Bloody hell, am I an inbred!?
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1851 :) https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGJP-VMM
Nope, I don't see anything odd there at all, sorry. I was an attendant to my best friend's marriage in 1970s. Her maiden surname and her married surname is definitely not your popular SMITH, BROWN, JONES variety, nor even as popular as GARDINER/GARDENER/GARDNER. According to white pages listings, there's less than ten entries in the current phone books for all of New South Wales, Australia, and eight of those are in Sydney, NSW. However, my friend and her husband do not share a common ancestor, only a common surname. JM
Hi there,
I see nothing odd or unlikely about Jane's maiden surname being same as her married surname. Have you looked for the marriage, or for births of siblings for the baby being registered?
JM
You don't think it's unusual that a man and a woman with the same surname should marry? It's not exactly as common as 'Smith'!
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I have a Morse marrying a Morse and they are not related. (I looked hard enough!)
Giggsy
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I have a Morse marrying a Morse and they are not related. (I looked hard enough!)
Giggsy
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You could always get the marriage certificate and see who the fathers are for the couple. ::)
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Several times I have had this same situation when helping on various sites.
First time it happened I was puzzled, but then shrugged and accepted it.
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You could always get the marriage certificate and see who the fathers are for the couple. ::)
This looks like the marriage
Marriages Jun 1848
GARDINER George Weardale 24 363
GARDINER Jane Weardale 24 363
I was about to suggest the same thing Girl Guide. You might be able to find both George and Jane on the 1841 census, but as that won't give a lot of detail you would be better off buying the certificate.
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You could always get the marriage certificate and see who the fathers are for the couple. ::)
This looks like the marriage
Marriages Jun 1848
GARDINER George Weardale 24 363
GARDINER Jane Weardale 24 363
I was about to suggest the same thing Girl Guide. You might be able to find both George and Jane on the 1841 census, but as that won't give a lot of detail you would be better off buying the certificate.
thanks, ill add it to my list of certificates to buy
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https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JSYP-MLB Christening 8 Dec 1850
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VBZL-8SC 1871
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q271-MH6P 1881 Notice Geo’s sister in law is with the family, and she was born same locality as Geo’s wife Jane. The sister in law was Hannah GARDINER - so I think it is likely Hannah and Jane would be sisters.
JM
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Hi there,
I see nothing odd or unlikely about Jane's maiden surname being same as her married surname. Have you looked for the marriage, or for births of siblings for the baby being registered?
JM
You don't think it's unusual that a man and a woman with the same surname should marry? It's not exactly as common as 'Smith'!
I have a Gardiner ancestor. It was the commonest surname in her township in Lancashire. Her mother-in-law was Smith and her daughter-in-law- (from a different parish) was also Smith. Their husbands had the commonest surname in their parish, so there were several marriages of brides and grooms with that surname. Those were my grandfather's ancestors.
My grandmother's 2x great-grandparents had the same surname. Bride's husband, father and brother had the same 1st & last names which must have been confusing. A brother and sister from the same families were already married to each other; again bride's husband, father and brother shared 1st and last names. A daughter of GM's 2x GGPs married a grandson of a cousin so their descendants have that surname in 3 of their lines. It's an uncommon surname, found mainly in one region of the county. Another of GM's ancestors, from the neighbouring parish to the tribe above had the commonest surname in his parish. It was also his mother-in-law's maiden name. As a result of these marriages GM's tree is short on surnames. Her mother's family also ran out of family Christian names so her mother and aunt shared one.
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On the 1841 census
HO107; Piece: 308; Book: 18; Folio: 4; Page: 2; Line: 22 Wolsingham, there is this family
Michael Gardiner 60 Ag Lab
Jane Gardiner 40
Hannah Gardiner 12
Margaret Gardiner 10
Sarah Gardiner 6
Elizabeth Gardiner 2
Also on the same image, but at different addresses there is a Jane Gardiner 14, a Female Servant and a Phebe Gardiner 15 also a female servant. So possibly the two older daughters had been sent out to work.
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Also on the 1841 in Wolsingham there is a George Gardiner aged 10 , father James (a Lead Ore Miner) and mother Ann and several siblings. Possibly George, but if not it shows how common the name is.
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.....
Bloody hell, am I an inbred!?
I wonder if tjh1989 has been given flawed biological information about 'breeding' :o :-\
Just because the two parties to a marriage have same surname as each other prior to their marriage does not mean that it follows that there will be adverse consanguinity matters needing consideration simply because the couple formally marry each other. The matter of consanguinity does not need a piece of paper to show a formal, legal marriage relationship between two people, who through their (domestic) relationship become parents.
Nor do two people who are in a close biological relationship (and have children together) need to have the same surname as each other, whether they marry each other or not. First cousins for example may have same surname, but may well have different surnames …. Even where there’s formal marriage registrations, even double first cousins can of course have different surnames from each other.
http://www.genetics.edu.au/publications-and-resources/facts-sheets/fact-sheet-18-when-parents-are-relatives-consanguinity
JM I have modified the post by adding words in parentheses.
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3 pages of replies on this topic and not one person has asked which County Wolsingham, Weardale is in.
For all of you County Durham researchers Durham Records Online has 282 pages of Gardiners in the County of Durham. In Weardale alone 42 pages. 15 Gardiners per page. The life of a Lead Minter can be short. Expect that if researching in the area.
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When I was a little girl, evacuated to Shropshire the lady with whom I lived for most of that time married a man whose surname was the same as her maiden name,so she did not change her name on marriage.
It was a very common name in that area .
Just as in Welsh villages there are so many Jones, Evans, Williams etc.
perhaps this is the answer.
Viktoria.
As you get in Wales, lots of Evans, Jones
Williams etc.
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I'm thinking that its either a Gardiner marrying a Gardiner (unlikely!) or that the mother was born out of wedlock? Although if it's the latter why would you take the name of your husband!?
Here's the marriage - it was a Gardiner marrying a Gardiner:
29 Jun 1848: George Gardiner (bachelor, engineer), age 23, of Shildon, son of George Gardiner (engineer) married Jane Gardiner (spinster), age 21, of Wiserley High House, daughter of Michael Gardiner (farmer)
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So that looks as if it is Jane’s family I found in 1841, but not George’s family.
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She was a Gardiner before she married
My grandmother married a man with the same surname, so my mother and her siblings birth certificate are as you describe (I did wonder if they'd be related if I go back far enough but in actual fact several generations further back and they are spreading further apart geographically so I doubt it) - and it's not a hugely common name
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BTW my grandmother said when they got married they also had to provide details of grandparents as well (presumably to prove they weren't too closely related) - however that may be because both of their mothers were Beatrice (different maiden names but their married name were Identical - and their father's names similar - Albert and Arthur)
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On the 1841 census
HO107; Piece: 308; Book: 18; Folio: 4; Page: 2; Line: 22 Wolsingham, there is this family
Michael Gardiner 60 Ag Lab
Jane Gardiner 40
Hannah Gardiner 12
Margaret Gardiner 10
Sarah Gardiner 6
Elizabeth Gardiner 2
Also on the same image, but at different addresses there is a Jane Gardiner 14, a Female Servant and a Phebe Gardiner 15 also a female servant. So possibly the two older daughters had been sent out to work.
That looks a good possibility. In 1841 Michael and family are living at Wigside. Jane is at Low Wiserly, a neighbouring farm to the north-east. On the marriage certificate she is described as being resident at High Wiserley, which is a neighbouring farm to the north-west, all clearly seen here
http://www.streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?X=408067&Y=535905&A=Y&Z=115
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Wonder if this could be father George in 1851 in Shildon
George Gardiner 49 b Wolsingham engineer
Elizabeth Gardiner 49 b Wolsingham
Children
Jane 24 b Chester le Street
John 22 b Wolsingham
Michael 20 b Shildon
Frances 18 b Shildon
Benjamin14b Bolton, Lancs.
Elizabeth 12 b Bolton
Francis 9 b Shildon
William 3 Shildon
Looking at places of birth they could be in Lancs. or co Durham in 1841
There also appears to be an interesting will for a Frances Gardiner of Wosingham died 1855 on the North east inheritance database - her nephew George Gardiner of Shildon is one of her legatees.
William
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Not only do I have first cousins marrying - her father and his mother were brother and sister. Also my paternal grandmother was a Smith as was my paternal grandfather - two different families, one originated Harrogate and the other Sunderland.
Emeltom
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Wonder if this could be father George in 1851 in Shildon
George Gardiner 49 b Wolsingham engineer
Elizabeth Gardiner 49 b Wolsingham
Children
Jane 24 b Chester le Street
John 22 b Wolsingham
Michael 20 b Shildon
Frances 18 b Shildon
Benjamin14b Bolton, Lancs.
Elizabeth 12 b Bolton
Francis 9 b Shildon
William 3 Shildon
Looking at places of birth they could be in Lancs. or co Durham in 1841
There also appears to be an interesting will for a Frances Gardiner of Wosingham died 1855 on the North east inheritance database - her nephew George Gardiner of Shildon is one of her legatees.
William
Elizabeth Gardner birth registered Bolton 1838, mother's maiden name Wharton
Francis Gardiner birth registered Auckland 1844 mother's maiden name Wharton
I notice they had an elder brother Michael. Jane's father was also Michael. Coincidence or relations? Was Michael a common name in Durham at that time?
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Marriage in Wolsingham 23Dec 1822 George Gardner and Elizabeth Wharton - witnesses Hannah Gardner and John Gardner
Baptism Wolsingham 8 March 1802(born13 Feb) George Gardener son of George Gardener and Hannah Gardener
Marriage Wolsingham 11 July 1790 George Gardener and Hannah Gardener
(Baptism Wolsingham for Hannah Gardener27 Feb 1804 parents George Gardener and Hannah Gardener states 3rd daughter, father native of Frosterley and mother native of Wolsingham).
So it would appear not the first Gardener / Gardener (or variations) marriage in Wolsingham.
William
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...
Baptism Wolsingham 8 March 1802(born13 Feb) George Gardener son of George Gardener and Hannah Gardener
Marriage Wolsingham 11 July 1790 George Gardener and Hannah Gardener
So it would appear not the first Gardener / Gardener (or variations) marriage in Wolsingham.
William
I wonder if OP has green fingers ;D
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tjh1989, folks have given you some useful information here, it would be good to hear from you :)
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tjh1989, folks have given you some useful information here, it would be good to hear from you :)
I wonder if tjh1989 isn't getting email notifications of answers to the post, as they were last online at at 12:34 today?
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I would add the following to this discussion. I have a cousin (not with my surname) who lived in Gretton, Northamptonshire who his called house "Craxford House" because the maiden name of both his grandmothers was Craxford (they were first cousins once removed). The house and sign are still there. Consanguineous marriage is far commoner than expected, particulalry in rural communities.
I was in conversion with a Professor of Social Anthropology in the US who made the following observation: "In a population of between three and five hundred people, after six generations or so there are only third cousins or closer to marry. During most of human history, people have lived in small, isolated communities of about that size, and have in fact probably been closer to the genetic equivalent of first cousins, because of their multiple consanguinity. In nineteenth-century rural England, for instance, the radius of the average isolate, or pool of potential spouses, was about five miles, which was the distance a man could comfortably walk twice on his day off, when he went courting- his roaming area by daylight. The bicycle extended the radius to twenty five miles. "**
Alan
** Shoumatoff, Alex: The Mountain of Names: A history of the human Family with introduction by Robin Fox; Kodansha International, New York, USA (1995). ISBN 1-56836-071-1
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Newfloridian post # 34.
My GF when asked once why he'd left his rural community replied "Because there was no one left to marry". That is, no one except young women to whom he was already related several times over.
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I have sent a p.m to tjh1989 as I think we have the same Gardener/Gardiner.I have a George Gardener marrying Hannah Gardener 11th July 1790 Wolsingham,they were my hubby's 4th great grandparents.
Maureen