RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => Topic started by: welshspencer on Wednesday 13 December 17 03:40 GMT (UK)
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Hi there i am trying to understand the meaning of this auction .
is this what they call a life estate? as someone selling the estate but it says that most of it is sold but for the lives of a few people.. what does this mean ? for instances is says for the lives of George 57 and Sarah Edwards , Ann Bailey 75 , and Catharine Morris Leslie Trickey, aged 12 years. how does this work . and what happens if each die, i know that George and Sarah had a few children by this time but they are not meantioned . and how i can i find out who was selling the taste ..
regards
. VALUABLE PROPERTY IN" THE PARISH OF BLEADON, SOMERSET. MR. NORTON will 'SELL AUCTION, at ROGER'S HOTEL, WESTON-SUPER-MARE, on Tuesday, the 25th day of July, 1854, at Seven o'Clock in the Evening, in the following or such other Lots may be determined on at the time of Sale, and subject such Conditions shall be then produced. The following very Valuable ESTATES, situate at SHIPLETT, in the Parish of Bleadon aforesaid, comprising the whole 122 a. Or. (more or less), that is to say :— Lot I.—All that desirable ESTATE, called Acridges' and part of Tuttons 1 divided into the following Closes : Tithe Map Description of Premises. Quality. Quantity. „„, Farm House, Barn, Ox-\ a- r. p. ,) houses, Stables, Cart Buildings &) house, Offices, and ("Orchard ... M I Orchard ) 333 Home Ground Pasture 10 3 Newlands (Acridges) ... Ditto 33 27 337 Newlands (Tuttons) ... Ditto 32 10 The Three Acres ... Ditto 116 341 The Three Acre Paddock Ditto The Three Acres (Tuttons) Arable 038 A2B 1 0 Nos. 337 and 340 will be Sold for the lives of George Edwards, aged 57 years, Ann Bailey, aged years, Arthur Young, aged 9 years, and Albert Young, aged 8 years, or thereabouts, and the residue of the Estate forming Lot 1, will be Sold for the lives of the said George Edwards, and Sarah Edwards, his wife, aged 52 years, the said Ann Bailey, and Catharine Morris Leslie Trickey, aged 12 years, or thereabouts. , Lot 2.—A1l that Desirable ESTATE, called Tuttons, and part of Acridges, and divided into the following Closes :— No. on Description of Premises. Quality. Quantity. Tithe Map. r 343 Farm House, Barn, Stables, A. R. P Waggon-House, Offices, and Orchard ... Orchard 3 Part of 344 Denheath (Tuttons) ... Pasture 016 Part of 344 Denheath (Acridge's) Pasture 0 0 345 Coppice Plantation 325 346 Combe Close Arable 16 Part of 347 Whittles (Tuttons) ... Ditto 32 28 Part of Whittles (Tuttons) ... Ditto 03 17 Part of 347 Whittles (Acridges)... Ditto Part of Whittles Ditto ... Ditto 2 211 A4l The last Four Pieces are now thrown together,—part of No. 344, measuring 7a„ and part of 347. measuring sa. 2r. 2p., and part of 348, measuring 2a. 2r. Hp.,—will be Sold for the Lives of the said George Edwards, Sarah Edwards, Ann Bailey, and Catherine Morris Leslie Trickey, and the Residue of the Estate, forming Lot 2, will be sold for the lives of the said George Edwards, Ann Bailey, Arthur Young, and Albeit Young. This Estate adjoins Lands of Thomas Woodham, Esq., the Representatives of Peter Downing, Esq., and the road leading to Loxton. Lot 3.—The FOUR ACRES, numbered 373 on the said Man, containing 2a. Or. 29p., adjoining the Hill, and Lands of the Misses Hetling and Thomas Woodham, Esq. The Purchaser of this Lot will have a right of way through No. 344, part of Lot 2. This Lot will be sold for the lives of the said George Edwards, Ann Bailey, Arthur Young, and Albert Young. Lot 4.—A1l those Two ALLOTMENTS on the Hill numbered respectively 351, containing 43a. 3r. 28p., and 352, containing 38a. Or. 5p., forming most valuable Estate of 81a. 3r. 33p., now Pasture, but well calculated for Tillage, and capable of producing bushels of Wheat per Acre. Lot 351 will be sold for the lives of the said George Edwards, and Sarah, his wife, Ann Bailey, and Catherine Morns Leslie Trickey, and No. 352 will be sold for the lives of the said George Edwards, Ann Bailey, Arthur Young, and Albert Young. Lot 5.—A1l that Close of Capital Pasture LAND, called Stroud Lease, containing 4a. 3a. 33p., more or less, situate in Bleadon Level, adjoining Lands of the Representatives of J. Fussell, Esq., Miss Hetling, John Williamson, Esq., and others, and Numbered 34, on the Tithe Map, and now in the occupation of Mr. John Cook. This Lot will sold subject to Right of Way to Lands of John Williamson, Esq., Numbered 31 and on the said Tithe Map. Lot 6—All that Common FIELD, East Mead, containing 23p., and Numbered 96 on the said Tithe Map, and now in the occupation of Mr. William Parker. The two last Lots will be sold for the lives of the said George Edwards, and Sarah, his wife, Ann Bailey, and Catharine Morris Leslie Trickey. The above Estates are holden by Copy Court Roll, under the Dean and Chapter of Winchester, Lords of the Manor of Bleadon-cum-Priddle. The Lands are well-situated, and of excellent quality. Mr. GEORGE EDWARDS, of Shiplett, Bleadon. will show the same; and all further Particulars may he known on application to Mr. HENRY DAVIES, Solicitor, Weston-super- Dated 23rd June, 1854
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The Museum of English Rural Life may be able to help.
Their email: merl@reading.ac.uk
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Many farm tenancies were not for a set number of years but but for the "life" of the tenant plus his children and sometimes grandchildren too
This meant the the tenancy continued after the death of the first tenant and was automatically passed onto his son / daughter.
In this way the farmer was able to plan long term, thus increasing his income and the value of the farm
In your example I would guess Ann Bailey is the widow of the original tenant, Sarah Edwards the daughter to whom the tenancy passed on his death and Catherine Trickey a grand-daughter.
The land being sold is subject to a tenancy agreement lasting untill all the named people have died
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Many farm tenancies were not for a set number of years but but for the "life" of the tenant plus his children and sometimes grandchildren too. This meant the the tenancy continued after the death of the first tenant and was automatically passed onto his son / daughter. In this way the farmer was able to plan long term, thus increasing his income and the value of the farm.
This auction is very similar to one involving my ggg-grandfather, who died soon after the 1851 census, having been a yeoman farmer near Ashburton (Devon) for over 50 years. He outlived some of his sons, and in 1854 the 100-acre farm was auctioned in the name of my gg-grandfather, who soon afterwards took his entire family to Ireland (I don't know exactly when).
So I was wondering how soon after the death of a tenant the terms of such a lease would take effect?
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from my research it seems that the estates were owned by sarah father who died in 1817 and the estate was left to his daughter sarah. whom was married to george edwards. there was a court case in 1847 between sarah and her half sister over the will of there father. Sarah won the court case and all the estate came to her and her husband . so in 1854 the estate was held by george and sarah.. so leads me to believe it was them who put the estate up for auction and with themselves as life tenants ?? the other people mentioned Ann bailey is Sarah older half sister , who died before sarah and a george. and the young girl Catherine Tricky was there step grandchild of george and sarah . their daughter harriet married mr trickey who had Catherine by a previous marriage. rumours in family were he got into debt and maybe had to sell. and that maybe it was my trickery who then bought the estate . which then went to him /daughter after george and sarah died .
would that be how it worked? i remember my great great aunt saying that it should never have gone that way. as george and sarah had 5 children and also so did Mr Triceky and Harriet have children together , but none was meantioned in this life grant.
great aunt would say that when the estate was left to sarah her great grandma it was left with a condition it would pass down a certain way. but her grandfather sold it off ...
"Many farm tenancies were not for a set number of years but but for the "life" of the tenant plus his children and sometimes grandchildren too. This meant the the tenancy continued after the death of the first tenant and was automatically passed onto his son / daughter. In this way the farmer was able to plan long term, thus increasing his income and the value of the farm."
so in my life estate because sarah and george never mentioned their children it would not then pass to them? is that correct
regards
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Presumably the tenant was due to pay the rent up to the end of the lease unless there was an escape clause.
Skoosh.
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Great aunt kitty seems to think it went to her father george jnr when george snr died . in 1873 and his will shares everything to his 5 children but the effects of that will are under £200 so the estate didn't pass by the will ? maybe this was because of the 1854 sale..
so i am not sure how this estate passed down. as kitty felt it went to her father who then got rid of it when he should not of.
so did it pass from sarah and george to Catherine Trickery? as the life estate or did it go to kitty father who then got rid of it ... not sure how i can find this out .....
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so in my life estate because sarah and george never mentioned their children it would not then pass to them? is that correct
regards
The tenancy would pass to the named person Catherine Trickey -- ownership of the land would be quite separate
So the ownership of the land could be left to one of Sarah & Georges children with Catherine Trickey as a life tenant able to stay there until her death
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Thank you marmalady . But I confused as it was sold at auction so would it not mean the person who bought this at auction as the article in the newspapers. Would acquire the lands after they all had died . ??
How can I find out of it was George Edwards himself that put up this sale as he needed money but wanted to stay until he passed .
If it sold in 1853 and Catherine father bought this as not many people would buy if it had a life estate for a 12 year old her father then died 1878 ..
so in my life estate because sarah and george never mentioned their children it would not then pass to them? is that correct
regards
The tenancy would pass to the named person Catherine Trickey -- ownership of the land would be quite separate
So the ownership of the land could be left to one of Sarah & Georges children with Catherine Trickey as a life tenant able to stay there until her death
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If it went to Catherine for her life and the land your said could of gone to George children wouldn’t there be mention of this in the article?
so in my life estate because sarah and george never mentioned their children it would not then pass to them? is that correct
regards
The tenancy would pass to the named person Catherine Trickey -- ownership of the land would be quite separate
So the ownership of the land could be left to one of Sarah & Georges children with Catherine Trickey as a life tenant able to stay there until her death
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Property is often dealt with in terms of a lease. The owner (the freeholder) hands the use of land or a building to a leaseholder in return for a sum of money, or for an amount to be paid regularly. The contract describing the terms is called a lease.
The land and a building on it can be dealt with separately. Thus my mum's house is owned by her, and could readily be sold, but she pays a sum to the owner of the land it sits on. That sum is written into the lease. The "ground rent" was commonly fixed (my mum pays three guineas a year - £3.15), but modern properties may have all sorts of clauses allowing the amount to be increased, sometimes exorbitantly. Older leases quoted sums which seemed good at the time, but a lease is commonly for 99 or even 999 years, and inflation was not taken into account.
In the 19th century and earlier, there was a tendency for agricultural property to have a lease specified not in a fixed number of years, but in a number of lives - usually three lives in my part of the world. The exact people would be specified in the lease, and it was common to have a spread across the generations. Thus, the current farmer would be named, unless he was past "middle aged". His son might be next, as he would be the next likely person in charge. Then a grandchild of the current farmer, usually one who had already survived infancy.
This gave the business a chance of long term planning, knowing that the farm would still be in the family many years into the future.
Note that the people named in the lease need not actually be involved in running the farm. It is enough that they still be alive, and that SOMEONE pays the ground rent to the freeholder. Thus, a first born child might have been a girl, and named in the lease. A son born later might be the one running the farm when he grew up. It would be in his interest to ensure that his older sister lived a long life.
Once the last person named in the lease dies, or the fixed term expires, the property automatically reverts to the freeholder. It is normal to allow renegotiation of the lease at any time, but the freeholder is normally in a strong position to dictate terms.
Sometimes, when the ground rent is small, the owner might be willing to sell the freehold so as to get a reasonable amount of cash now. My mum, though, doesn't feel like shelling out thousands just to own the freehold of the land her house sits on. When the lease runs out, the freeholder will have received a total of only a few thousand pounds, and I've a feeling that the cost of sending out her bill and processing the payment already exceeds the cash she hands over each year.
In "Pride and Prejudice", Mr. Darcy's ten-thousand-a-year would be made up of thousands of these property leases. It's an easy way to live - you just own the land and other people do the work of farming it.
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Good & clear explanation, Andrew, thanks.