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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: tjh1989 on Wednesday 13 December 17 23:19 GMT (UK)
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Hi all
I'm looking for some help with the Hepplewhite side of my line as I'm concerned I've made a mistake. Please see my ancestry tree: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/tree/38112967/family (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/tree/38112967/family)
1. Starting point: Robert Hepplewhite (born 1898)
The starting point is Robert Hepplewhite (born 1898 in Coundon, County Durham).
His birth certificate: https://imgur.com/a/87VYp (https://imgur.com/a/87VYp)
His marriage certificate: https://imgur.com/a/ICIco (https://imgur.com/a/ICIco)
These both show that his father was George (William) Hepplewhite (a colliery engineer) and that Robert was born in 1898.Mother is a Matilda Robson.
Turning to the census records:
1901
Registration district Auckland
Sub-registration district Bishop Auckland
ED, institution, or vessel 46
Piece 4650
Folio 8
Page number 8
Household schedule number 41
1911
Registration district Auckland
Registration District Number 547
Sub-registration district Bishop Auckland
ED, institution, or vessel 31
Piece 29733
Both show Robert to be living with his father and mother (all consistent with the above). George is shown on the census to have been born around 1874 in (East) Murton, Durham.
2. George William Hepplewhite
A search of the GRO register for a George Hepplewhite in 1874 +/- 2 years returns the following result: https://imgur.com/a/gwvhW
I believe that it is very likely the last entry i.e. George William Hepplewhite (1873) because of the middle name. One of the entries can be discarded as it is in London and we know George W was born in Durham. There is a risk that the George Hepplewhite (born 1875) also born in the Easington RD could have omitted his middle name as birth. I've proceeded on the basis that George W (1873) is mine (I think this is a pretty safe assumption?).
The following is that George W's birth certificate: https://imgur.com/a/XcA1X (https://imgur.com/a/XcA1X)
It shows his father is Robert Hepplewhite (I'll call him Robert Hepplewhite Snr to avoid confusion) and his mother is Isabel Robinson. His father is shown as a 'gamekeeper'.
As to the census results (apart from those shown above):
1881
Registration district Northallerton
ED, institution, or vessel 7
Piece 4868
Folio 55
Page number 10
This shows George (age is pretty much right) living with 'Robert' and 'Isabella'. George's place of birth is shown as 'Murton Lane' but they appear to be living in East Cowton, North Yorkshire (which is quite a way from Murton). 'Robert' is shown as a Gamekeeper (which ties up with George W's birth certificate) who was born in 'Scotland'. I'm pretty sure this is them but not 100%.
1891
Registration district Auckland
Sub registration district Bishop Auckland
ED, Institution or Vessel 17
Piece 4069
Folio 114
George's details again seem to tie up. 'Robert' is now listed as a 'Coal Miner' who lived in Northumberland, Benwell. 'Isabella's details appear to match the 1881 census (born in 1833 Pelton village). However, what concerns me is that Robert's place of birth seems to be a different country, his profession is entirely different and his date of birth seems slightly different (perhaps not such an issue given census inaccuracies).
3.Isabella Robinson and Robert Hepplewhite
The following is the marriage certificate of Robert Hepplewhite Snr and Isabella Robinson in 1854: https://imgur.com/a/KQOZl (https://imgur.com/a/KQOZl)
Robert Hepplewhite Snr's father is shown as George Hepplewhite and Isabella's as William Robinson. Both are shown as 'pitman' (i.e. a coalminer). The witnesses are not helpful. Is it odd that their son, George W, was born 20 years after their marriage (Isabella was 46 at the time)?
As for the census results (going backwards from 1881):
1871
Registration district Easington
Sub-registration district Easington
ED, institution, or vessel 5
Household schedule number 45
Piece 4971
Folio 86
Page number 10
'Robert' and 'Isabella' are shown living with a previous son John. 'Robert' is listed as being 39 which puts his birth at around 1832 (quite a bit different from the above). Think he is a 'woodsman'.
Can't find an 1861 census
1851 - Robert
Registration district Chester Le Street
Sub-registration district Chester
ED, institution, or vessel 8
Household schedule number 113
Piece 2394
Folio 217
Page number 32
This shows 'Robert' as '19' (ie born around 1830, quite different to the above) in Benwell and living with George and Frances. 'Robert' was a coalminer. .
1861 - Isabella
Sub-registration district Bishop Auckland
ED, institution, or vessel 33
Household schedule number 106
Piece 3712
Folio 11
Page number 22
Isabella Hepplewhite appears to be living by herself for some reason. I think it says that she is living with her father John Holmes. This is problematic as the above indicated that her maiden name was Robinson (maybe she was widowed from a Mr Robinson and remarried? I can't see a marriage between an Isabella Holmes and a Mr Robinson though) and her father was William.
Previous census confirm the 'Holmes' theory.
4. My queries
I'm looking to try and clarify the above which is causing me quite a bit of confusion! In essence, who was Robert's paternal grandfather and grandmother? Any birth records would be fantastic.
thanks
Tom
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Sorry, but that is a lot of information.
Have you got the marriage certificate for the parents of Robert Hepplewhite (born 1898) - i.e. George and Matilda?
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Sorry, but that is a lot of information.
Have you got the marriage certificate for the parents of Robert Hepplewhite (born 1898) - i.e. George and Matilda?
Hi
Yes, I'm sorry for the information overload. I've mostly documented it for my own purposes, I completely understand if others don't want to go through it.
No, I didn't buy that certificate as I didn't think it particularly useful. Would you recommend that I purchased it?
Thanks
Tom
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I always work back by buying birth and marriage certificates, just to cross-check.
I do not want to force you to spend more money, but I prefer to have the names of parents confirmed, then names of their fathers, and occupations and sometimes even witnesses can be very useful.
I do not like assumptions for direct family tree.
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Hi,
I think this might explain why Isabella is with parents John and Henrietta HOLMES on the 1841, 1851 and 1861 census and yet on her marriage certificate she calls her father William ROBINSON and her children show her mmn. as ROBINSON.
It was not Isabella that was a widow when she married Robert HEPPLEWHITE it was Henrietta ROBINSON when she married John HOLMES,
This is what I think happened,
Birth
Birth Date: 20 Dec 1807
Baptism Date: 29 Apr 1810
Chester Le Street, Durham
Henrietta REATHER
Parents: William REATHER & Isabella WILSON
Marriage
15 December 1832
Chester Le Street, Durham, England
Henrietta REATHER
William ROBINSON
Baptism
Baptism Date: 14 September 1834
Chester Le Street, Durham
Isabella ROBINSON
Parents: William & Henrietta ROBINSON
Possible burial for William,
Burial
William ROBINSON
Burial date: 28 Dec 1836
Burial: Chester Le Street, Durham, England
Age at death: 29
Residence: Pelton
Marriage
Marriage date: 12 Oct 1839
Marriage place: Houghton-Le-Spring, Durham
Henrietta ROBINSON
Father: William REATHER
John HOLMES
Father: William HOLMES
The HOLMES boys showing on the 1851 and 1861 census show the mmn. as REATHER, I can't find a death for Henrietta HOLMES b.1848/49 but her baptism seems to be 16 Jan 1849, Shotley-Bridge, Durham.
If this is theory is right then it looks like Isabella just took her step-father's name in 1841 and 1851.
Hope this helps :)
Regards,
Daisy
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Hi,
I think this might explain why Isabella is with parents John and Henrietta HOLMES on the 1841, 1851 and 1861 census and yet on her marriage certificate she calls her father William ROBINSON and her children show her mmn. as ROBINSON.
It was not Isabella that was a widow when she married Robert HEPPLEWHITE it was Henrietta ROBINSON when she married John HOLMES,
This is what I think happened,
Birth
Birth Date: 20 Dec 1807
Baptism Date: 29 Apr 1810
Chester Le Street, Durham
Henrietta REATHER
Parents: William REATHER & Isabella WILSON
Marriage
15 December 1832
Chester Le Street, Durham, England
Henrietta REATHER
William ROBINSON
Baptism
Baptism Date: 14 September 1834
Chester Le Street, Durham
Isabella ROBINSON
Parents: William & Henrietta ROBINSON
Possible burial for William,
Burial
William ROBINSON
Burial date: 28 Dec 1836
Burial: Chester Le Street, Durham, England
Age at death: 29
Residence: Pelton
Marriage
Marriage date: 12 Oct 1839
Marriage place: Houghton-Le-Spring, Durham
Henrietta ROBINSON
Father: William REATHER
John HOLMES
Father: William HOLMES
The HOLMES boys showing on the 1851 and 1861 census show the mmn. as REATHER, I can't find a death for Henrietta HOLMES b.1848/49 but her baptism seems to be 16 Jan 1849, Shotley-Bridge, Durham.
If this is theory is right then it looks like Isabella just took her step-father's name in 1841 and 1851.
Hope this helps :)
Regards,
Daisy
Hi
I think that you are correct (should have figured this out myself)! I'm really really grateful for you help here.
Did you have any luck with Robert Hepplewhite Snr? I couldn't find a birth entry (civil or parish).
Thanks
Tom
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Hi,
I think this might explain why Isabella is with parents John and Henrietta HOLMES on the 1841, 1851 and 1861 census and yet on her marriage certificate she calls her father William ROBINSON and her children show her mmn. as ROBINSON.
It was not Isabella that was a widow when she married Robert HEPPLEWHITE it was Henrietta ROBINSON when she married John HOLMES,
This is what I think happened,
Birth
Birth Date: 20 Dec 1807
Baptism Date: 29 Apr 1810
Chester Le Street, Durham
Henrietta REATHER
Parents: William REATHER & Isabella WILSON
Marriage
15 December 1832
Chester Le Street, Durham, England
Henrietta REATHER
William ROBINSON
Baptism
Baptism Date: 14 September 1834
Chester Le Street, Durham
Isabella ROBINSON
Parents: William & Henrietta ROBINSON
Possible burial for William,
Burial
William ROBINSON
Burial date: 28 Dec 1836
Burial: Chester Le Street, Durham, England
Age at death: 29
Residence: Pelton
Marriage
Marriage date: 12 Oct 1839
Marriage place: Houghton-Le-Spring, Durham
Henrietta ROBINSON
Father: William REATHER
John HOLMES
Father: William HOLMES
The HOLMES boys showing on the 1851 and 1861 census show the mmn. as REATHER, I can't find a death for Henrietta HOLMES b.1848/49 but her baptism seems to be 16 Jan 1849, Shotley-Bridge, Durham.
If this is theory is right then it looks like Isabella just took her step-father's name in 1841 and 1851.
Hope this helps :)
Regards,
Daisy
Hi
I think that you are correct (should have figured this out myself)! I'm really really grateful for you help here.
Did you have any luck with Robert Hepplewhite Snr? I couldn't find a birth entry (civil or parish).
Thanks
Tom
Ah, I think the attached record is him.
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Glad you found him :)
I can't see him in 1861 but these pieces that are incomplete or missing in that census include places very near to Rumby Hill (John's POB) and Helmington Row where Isabella is,
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C3101767
Maybe he was close by but the record is lost.
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Glad you found him :)
I can't see him in 1861 but these pieces that are incomplete or missing in that census include places very near to Rumby Hill (John's POB) and Helmington Row where Isabella is,
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C3101767
Maybe he was close by but the record is lost.
Glad you found him :)
I can't see him in 1861 but these pieces that are incomplete or missing in that census include places very near to Rumby Hill (John's POB) and Helmington Row where Isabella is,
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C3101767
Maybe he was close by but the record is lost.
Thanks, just one final point if I may. Do you think I should be concerned about the census which shows that he was born in 'Scotland'?
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Which census has him born in another country?
Added:
OK, the 1881 census.
But 1891, 1901 and 1871 on a quick look have Benwell or around.
Think the enumerator could not read his own writing and wrote up incorrectly on the copy that we can see.
His job varies through the censuses.
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Which census has him born in another country?
Added:
OK, the 1881 census.
But 1891, 1901 and 1871 on a quick look have Benwell or around.
Think the enumerator could not read his own writing and wrote up incorrectly on the copy that we can see.
His job varies through the censuses.
Yeh, I think he seems to flirt between gamekeeper and a coalminer. This does cause me a little concern but I can't see anyone else who it could be.
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I'm trying to find out who the niece Frances THOMPSON in 1881 belongs to, that might help confirm it.
In 1891 I think she is living with Isabella's half brother William Reather HOLMES b.1840. There is another THOMPSON nephew and niece with them. 1891 RG12/4076 f.94 p.39.
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This could be Frances:
Frances Annie Thompson mmn Holmes birth March quarter 1874 in Durham
John George (with Frances in 1891)
John George Thompson mmn Holmes birth December quarter 1864 in Hexham
with John George in 1881 is Joseph
Joseph Thompson mmn Holmes birth December quarter 1866 in Hexham
also in 1881 is Sarah A
Sarah Ann Thompson mmn Holmes birth March quarter 1869 in Hexham
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There are a lot of THOMPSON mmn HOLMES births in Durham around that time aren't there :)
I think that the Frances Annie birth in 1874 would make her too young for the Frances age d 9 in 1881 (niece) and could belong to this couple instead,
William Willis THOMPSON Dec Q 1870 Durham 10a 517
Elizabeth HOLMES
They are here in Willington in 1871 and in West Auckland in 1881 RG11/4926 f.68 p.68 with Frances Ann age 7 showing as born in Willington which was in Durham registration district
I think the births for the other children are right and here are their baptisms,
John George THOMPSON
25 December 1864
Joseph THOMPSON
4 November 1866
Sarah Ann THOMSON
27 December 1868
All baptised in Huntstanworth, Durham with parents Joseph and Frances.
There is also this one which I think could be the right Frances but I cannot find a birth for her,
Frances THOMPSON
30 July 1871
The family are living Hexham registration district in a New Cottage in Newbiggin in 1871 RG10/5142 f.9 p.12 . The description of the district is,
"Blanchland Chapelry,
All that remaining of the Blanchland from and including Shildon, Fellgrove, Penny-Pie-House, Birkside, Burnshield-Haugh & Bay Bridge.
The whole of the township of Newbiggin including Newbiggin Hall and Newbiggin Hope, Embley? ?ei?ly,
Gingles Haugh, and all the those New Cottages near BayBridge"
I mention this because Frances b.1871 gives her POB as Bay Bridge in 1881 and Bay Bridge in 1891. (Transcribed a Banbridge at Ancestry). The other children say Newbiggin in 1871 and Blanchland in 1881.
Hunstanworth is about 2 1/2 mile from there so maybe the nearest church?
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Hi again :)
In 1841 there is a Francis (image shows female) HOLMES age 4 living in the same household as John, Henrietta, Isabella etc. In 1861 she is shown as Fanney HOLMES b.1837 Stanhope, Durham a daughter of John and Henrietta HOLMES.
In 1851 she is Frances b.1837 Stanhope, Durham, shown as niece to John and Jane MADDISON, their children born after 1837 show mmn as GLEASON.
There are some online trees that show John MADDISON married Jane GLEASON in 1835 in St John's Chapel, Durham and that John HOLMES married Sarah GLEASON in 31 MARCH 1832 St. Johns Chapel, Weardale. The two women being sisters. I think it's always best to use this info as a hint then check it for yourself :)
I can't get full info but there does seem good possibilities to confirm these marriages using Durham Records Online, a John MADDISON gets married in Weardale in 1835 as does a Jane GLEASON and a John HOLMES abode Chester-Le-Street gets married in Weardale in 1832 as does a Sarah GLEESTON.
Frances/Fanney could be the daughter of John and Sarah,
Durham Records Online
1837 Weardale
Fanny HOLMES
POB: Shittlehopeburn
Ancestry
Fanny HOLMES
Baptism Date: 12 Feb 1837
Baptism Place: Stanhope, Durham
Parents: John & Sarah
There is this burial which could be Sarah,
Durham Records Online
1837 Weardale
Sarah HOLMES
Birth year: abt 1814
Abode: Shittlehopeburn, Stanhope
Ancestry/Findagrave
Sarah HOLMES
May 1837
Burial St John the Baptist Churchyard, St Johns Chapel, Durham
Then John HOLMES marries Henrietta ROBINSON nee. REATHER.
So my theory is that Frances/Fanney HOLMES b.1837 to John HOLMES and Sarah GLEASON marries Joseph THOMPSON in 1862,
Joseph THOMPSON Dec Q 1862 Weardale 10a 342
Fanny HOLMES
and it is their daughter Frances THOMPSON b.1871 that is the niece of Robert and Isabella HEPPLEWHITE in 1881 as Frances HOLMES b.1837 was a half-sister to Isabella HEPPLEWHITE nee ROBINSON :)
OK now my eyes are doing this :D, I think I'll go now ;D
Regards,
Daisy
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Hi again :)
In 1841 there is a Francis (image shows female) HOLMES age 4 living in the same household as John, Henrietta, Isabella etc. In 1861 she is shown as Fanney HOLMES b.1837 Stanhope, Durham a daughter of John and Henrietta HOLMES.
In 1851 she is Frances b.1837 Stanhope, Durham, shown as niece to John and Jane MADDISON, their children born after 1837 show mmn as GLEASON.
There are some online trees that show John MADDISON married Jane GLEASON in 1835 in St John's Chapel, Durham and that John HOLMES married Sarah GLEASON in 31 MARCH 1832 St. Johns Chapel, Weardale. The two women being sisters. I think it's always best to use this info as a hint then check it for yourself :)
I can't get full info but there does seem good possibilities to confirm these marriages using Durham Records Online, a John MADDISON gets married in Weardale in 1835 as does a Jane GLEASON and a John HOLMES abode Chester-Le-Street gets married in Weardale in 1832 as does a Sarah GLEESTON.
Frances/Fanney could be the daughter of John and Sarah,
Durham Records Online
1837 Weardale
Fanny HOLMES
POB: Shittlehopeburn
Ancestry
Fanny HOLMES
Baptism Date: 12 Feb 1837
Baptism Place: Stanhope, Durham
Parents: John & Sarah
There is this burial which could be Sarah,
Durham Records Online
1837 Weardale
Sarah HOLMES
Birth year: abt 1814
Abode: Shittlehopeburn, Stanhope
Ancestry/Findagrave
Sarah HOLMES
May 1837
Burial St John the Baptist Churchyard, St Johns Chapel, Durham
Then John HOLMES marries Henrietta ROBINSON nee. REATHER.
So my theory is that Frances/Fanney HOLMES b.1837 to John HOLMES and Sarah GLEASON marries Joseph THOMPSON in 1862,
Joseph THOMPSON Dec Q 1862 Weardale 10a 342
Fanny HOLMES
and it is their daughter Frances THOMPSON b.1871 that is the niece of Robert and Isabella HEPPLEWHITE in 1881 as Frances HOLMES b.1837 was a half-sister to Isabella HEPPLEWHITE nee ROBINSON :)
OK now my eyes are doing this :D, I think I'll go now ;D
Regards,
Daisy
Wow, that's really impressive! Thanks for all your help, it really is appreciated.
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I agree that the Frances Thompson birth is very suspect, but was the only one around so considered that the census could be wrong, as a niece not a daughter.
So we are still missing her birth in 1871?
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I think we are :(
The Frances who is a niece to Robert and Isabella HEPPLEWHITE in 1881 gives her POB as Bay Bridge which is where Joseph and Fanny THOMPSON are living in 1871 with their other children (John George, Joseph and Sarah Ann) whose births you found in Hexham.
The baptism I found,
Frances THOMPSON
30 July 1871
Huntstanworth, Durham
Parents: Joseph and Frances
matches the other children.
It looks like Frances marries Charles JENNISON in 1896,
10 Oct 1896
St. Anne's Church, St. Andrew's Parish, Auckland, Durham
Frances THOMPSON
Single
Age: 24
Father: Jos THOMPSON
Spouse: Charles JENNISON
Single
Age: 21
Father: William JENNISON
In 1901 she is 28 gives her POB as Bay Bridge, in 1911 she is 39 and her POB is unknown.
I'm starting to wonder if she was taken in by Joseph and Frances as a baby :-\ maybe a relative or just a friend's baby.