RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lincolnshire => Topic started by: rot1927 on Thursday 14 December 17 16:00 GMT (UK)
-
Hi, does anyone know how I would be able to locate where a stillborn would have been laid to rest.
name Ellen Brocklesby - 1907, maybe Wrangle or Old Leake Lincolnshire?
Thanks.
-
As I understand - usually in a convenient, already open, grave.
-
How do you know she was still born? A still born child would not usually have a name, as a still born child could not be baptised.
Stan
-
Ha, well my grandmother was with child belonging to another when she married my grandfather?
I found Ellen Brocklesby B.1807 D.1807 in the same last quarter Oct Nov Dec the same last quarter my grandparents married, I am assuming they married first then lost the child afterwards!
I had been told the child was conceived out of wedlock?
-
Is this the birth you mean :-\
BROCKLESBY, ELLEN mmn HOWSHAM
1907 Dec Quarter in BOSTON Volume 07A Page 388
-
That is the one I believe.. Rosie99..
they named the girl Brocklesby so I think married before she was born so to speak!
-
You say that you found B.1807 D.1807 in the same last quarter Oct Nov Dec The term quarter Oct Nov Dec only refers to civil registration entries which did not start until 1st July 1837
Stan
-
I was thinking that it would be very rare for someone still to be alive who had a grandmother who married in 1807 ::)
-
It would not have been a 'stillbirth' though the baby could have just lived less than a day
BROCKLESBY, ELLEN age 0
1907 Dec Quarter in BOSTON Volume 07A Page 229
I see the marriage was Househam and not Howsham :)
-
stanmapstone, yes I had seen that date somewhere..
-
If it was 1907 then it was not a stillbirth. Still births were only registered from 1 July 1927.
Stall
-
Lizziew.. sorry typo.. 1907 is date.
-
stanmapstone.. oh, so then maybe there were complications after the birth?
this is what happens when stories get passed down.. it does lead to some confusion,
thanks for your input stanmapstone.
-
The story could be completely untrue :-\
What does the 1911 census say about children born to marriage of your grandmother
-
There seems to be another one - mother nee HOUSEHAM (Doris 1908) - appears as Dorris in 1911.
-
I have one in my tree who died aged 1 hour. When scouring burial records once I came across several entries that said things like "less than thirty minutes". I agree that in order to have a birth and death record the child was born alive but the age at death could have been a couple of minutes or as many as three or so months. If the child only lived a short while then as far as many would have been concerned it would have been practically a stillbirth, especially if the story was carried down by, say, an older sibling who wouldn't have been present and would simply have known that the child was born and died without them seeing it.
-
How do you know she was still born? A still born child would not usually have a name, as a still born child could not be baptised.
Stan
Sorry Stan but you do not have to be baptised to have a name.
I have not been baptised but I believe I have a name, though I am sometimes summoned by Oye.
I can also assure you that stillbirths were recorded as far back as 1551 to my knowledge and from reading the Historic Stillbirth register I see that the trend to name stillborns came in around the mid 1950s for those born at home, however this does not mean prior to that stillborns were not named just that no official record of the name was made.
Hospital records tend not to record names of still born babies but many families do name their stillborn babies in spite of this, in fact every family who has contacted me have given their still born baby a name.
It it time hospitals and the registration service recognised the need of families to name their stillborn babies and changed the stillborn certificates to include their name.
It is also time (in fact well overdue) that the stillbirth register is made public as the secrecy surrounding stillborn babies causes lifetime anguish to many mothers.
Yes consideration has to be given in the first few months after the birth but after that the witholding of information adds to the distress.
Cheers
Guy
-
Sorry Stan but you do not have to be baptised to have a name.
I have not been baptised but I believe I have a name, though I am sometimes summoned by Oye.
I can also assure you that stillbirths were recorded as far back as 1551 to my knowledge and from reading the Historic Stillbirth register I see that the trend to name stillborns came in around the mid 1950s for those born at home, however this does not mean prior to that stillborns were not named just that no official record of the name was made.
I would agree with Guy.
My mother was born in 1931.
Her twin sister was stillborn (I have the certificate), and was known in the family as Margaret.
-
I am well aware that you don't have to be baptised to have a name, however the date was said to be 1807, and the only probable source of the entry would be from a parish register, when it was most likely a child would be baptised, obviously by 1907 this would not be the case.
Stan
-
I've looked at burials in unconsecrated ground in Bacup cemetery, Lancashire 1860s-1890s on Lancashire OPC. Burials of stillborn children were recorded without a 1st name. e.g. "stillborn Duckworth, child of James Duckworth". Some were buried in family graves. Others had XX instead of a grave number; most of these were "4th class graves" which I think denoted a common grave. From memory of looking at this register previously, a common grave in that cemetery normally held 6 people. For all the burials of stillborn babies there was a note "No ceremony". The mother of one Duckworth stillborn baby was interred in the same grave 3 weeks later. A high proportion of the stillborn babies seemed to be children of single mothers. I've heard that stillborn babies were sometimes placed in the coffin of a woman, if there was a woman due to be buried but I don't know if that was common.
-
Yes it was relatively common for infants to be buried with an adult in the past, it seems this was done for two reasons.
One was simply the cost and the other was the thought or belief the adult could guide and protect the infant on the journey through the underworld.
This was thought to be a comfort to some.
However the burial was required to be registered as with all burials in a churchyard or chapel.
Still-borns were also buried in the body of the church in the past not just in the graveyard for example
London, St James Clerkenwell, 1654 October 12, Two Stillborn childn of Mr Tho. Harlington, in the Chancell
London, All Hallows, Bread St, 1633 August 10, A Stillborne childe of John Pymmes woollen Drap [of this parish, in the church in the middle yle under the foottstolle against the 9 pewe. 4s]
London, St Mildred Bread St, 1683/4 February 9, An abortive male son of Owen & Mary Buckingham, bur. undr ye 3d Pew on ye North side. A.
Chester, 1599/60 Jan 13, master Edw. Kitchen a femall child Still borne bu. 13 Jan. in her mothers pew.
It was even acknowledged the infants buried in the churchyard were not christened
London, St Michael, Cornhill, 1851/2 February 26, A woman-child, Stillborn, dau. of Harrye Richardson, & not christened
Cheers
Guy
-
Thank you all for your input, a very interesting topic I think with some good knowledge on the subject.
cheers.
-
My maternal grandparents' first son was stillborn in 1938 (no birth certificate) He was named and buried in the family plot. I guess there is a possibility he was baptised, being buried on consecrated ground, also my grandfather was a Congregational Minister?
-
My maternal grandparents' first son was stillborn in 1938 (no birth certificate) He was named and buried in the family plot. I guess there is a possibility he was baptised, being buried on consecrated ground, also my grandfather was a Congregational Minister?
A dead person/child can not be baptised
Stan
-
My maternal grandparents' first son was stillborn in 1938 (no birth certificate)
Although I have no particular knowledge of it, there is a register of still births (since 1927). https://www.gov.uk/register-stillbirth
I believe certificates can be obtained by close relatives (and no-one else).
-
My maternal grandparents' first son was stillborn in 1938 (no birth certificate)
Although I have no particular knowledge of it, there is a register of still births (since 1927). https://www.gov.uk/register-stillbirth
I believe certificates can be obtained by close relatives (and no-one else).
That is correct.
You have to apply to GRO Southport (I did it by phone) and they will send you a form to fill in.
Your relationship to the stillborn has to be stated, and your reasons for wanting the details.
Once approved, they will send you the Stillbirth Certificate (very similar to a Birth Certificate, but not identical).
I went through the process for my mum's twin sister.
-
Although I have no particular knowledge of it, there is a register of still births (since 1927). https://www.gov.uk/register-stillbirth
I believe certificates can be obtained by close relatives (and no-one else).
Yes you can apply through the GRO I think it is £15 if I can remember correctly.
Incidentally although the parents of the stillborn and siblings if the parents are dead have an automatic right to apply for a stillbirth certificate anyone in the world whether related or not can also apply for any stillbirth certificate and give reasons or offer an explanation why they want it.
The Registrar General then considers the application and either supplies the certificate or refuses the request.
The Births and Deaths Registration Act, 1953 puts it this way-
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01l6a/
Searches and Certificates
30.-(3) The foregoing provisions of this section shall not apply to certified copies of entries in registers of still-births, but the Registrar General may, if he sees fit in any particular case and on payment of as aforesaid of the appropriate fee aforesaid, cause a search to be made for, and allow any person to have a certified copy of any entry in any such certified copies or in any filled register of still-births which has been forwarded to him.
Cheers
Guy
PS a redacted stillbirth certificate may be seen here
http://anguline.co.uk/cert/birth.html
-
Mine cost me £9.25 ;D
That was about 3 or 4 years ago.