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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: JSHD2011 on Friday 15 December 17 17:28 GMT (UK)

Title: Berkshire Will
Post by: JSHD2011 on Friday 15 December 17 17:28 GMT (UK)
Please can we get some help deciphering this and another will?  Quite poor quality is it legible enough?
Title: Re: Berkshire Will
Post by: Bookbox on Friday 15 December 17 18:47 GMT (UK)
The quality seems OK.

It's not a will, but a set of accounts submitted by his widow Elizabeth, the administrator of his estate.

I'm afraid I don't have time to do it right now. Someone else may get to it more quickly.
Title: Re: Berkshire Will
Post by: JSHD2011 on Friday 15 December 17 20:02 GMT (UK)
Ok thanks,

Sounds like Elizabeth Gertrude Mollere.   There are four pages:  Most interested to know if William Illsley married Joanne Jane Piper (Compton 1570) is mentioned.   Also, most interested to know if John's parents are mentioned could be a father John or George.

We have got another three page one (with Latin in it?) which may be John's fathers George of Brimpton (equal quality) d.1567 see attached

NB/Each will has a title page (omitted)
Title: Re: Berkshire Will
Post by: goldie61 on Friday 15 December 17 20:30 GMT (UK)
This is the first image you posted.
The accounts of his widow for administrating his estate.
Sounds like he had a good send off!  ;)

An account of Elizabeth Ilsley the W(idow) &
administratrix of all & singular the goods & chattles of
John Isley her her late husband late of Aldemaston (?)
deceased within the [     ] of berkes made & exhi-
bited the xxviijth day of Aprill 1593 befor the
right worshipfull Mr D Martin office of berkes

Imprimis this accomplament (?) chargeth the [   ] with
the whole somme that the Inventory of the goodes of the        Cl  ij s vj d
said John deceased ammountinge to the somme of
                Summa [   ]  p[   ]

Whereof this accomplament praieth to be allowed (?) for
keeping him in his sickness & for her expences about
his funeralles & charges in & about her administ
ration & other necessary charges as followeth

Imprimis for his shrowde (?)                                     iij s iiij d
Itm for his coffyn                                                       iijs iiijd
Itm for making his grave                                            iiij d
Itm to the Ringers                                                       ij s vj d
Itm [    ] of his funerall feast or remembrance
two barrelles of beer                                                   vj s viij d
Itm in bread at the same tyme                                    vj s viij d
Itm in beast (?) at the same tyme                                xv s
Itm in [   ] at the same tyme                                        ij s                     
Itm in poorke at the same tyme                                   vj s  8 d
Itm in geese at the same tyme                                     ij s
Itm in p(art)ridge at the same tyme                             ij s
Itm in monie bestoweth vxx d the poore                     
over & above at the same tyme                                   xiij s 4 d
Itm for the letter of adminstration                               
exhibiting the Inventorie & the
apparisors fees                                                          vj s x d 
Itm for a monies (?)  to can...    the
creditors (?)                                                                ij s vj d
Itm for executing the same                                        xx d
Itm for the charges [    ] in executing his administration
& at the her the [    ] came to paye her account           vj s viij d


Somebody will fill in the gaps no doubt.

'Ringers' would have been the bell ringers.

So no genealogical information in this part, interesting as it is.

Added: I think the other meat at the feast could be 'mutton'.
Well, they've got a 'beast', pork, geese and partridge, so very likely some sheep too!  :)
Title: Re: Berkshire Will
Post by: JSHD2011 on Friday 15 December 17 20:40 GMT (UK)
Wow quite a spread!

I think one of the pages of the rest of it is less good quality.
Title: Re: Berkshire Will
Post by: goldie61 on Friday 15 December 17 20:42 GMT (UK)
The second clip is the just the administration of George Ilsley, late of Brimpton, estate, to wife Margery.

The third clip is in Latin, so you will have to wait for Bookbox's return!
I can't see many Ilsey names in it however.
Title: Re: Berkshire Will
Post by: JSHD2011 on Friday 15 December 17 20:45 GMT (UK)
Thanks I will try to attached the final of John to this.  Sorry to confuse by putting George in the middle.

Ancestry generated 8 children for John and Elizabeth:  Joane, John, Margaret, Alyce, Mayme, William, Johan, Thomas and Walter.  I don't know what order they were in.   We are hoping that John and Elizabeth are William married Joanne Piper Compton c.1570 parents.  We are not clear if George is this John's father or whether there was another John in between William and George.

We got Margery Abury of Wolhampton (daughter of Morryce) from Visitations:
https://archive.org/stream/fourvisitationso5657ryla#page/n61/mode/2up/search/hildesley

NB/That was 1566 so it would appear he died the year after

NB2/ In Oxfordshire where we are, a beast in the field would be a cow
Title: Re: Berkshire Will
Post by: Bookbox on Friday 15 December 17 22:21 GMT (UK)
The second clip is the just the administration of George Ilsley, late of Brimpton, estate, to wife Margery.
The third clip is in Latin, so you will have to wait for Bookbox's return!
I can't see many Ilsey names in it however.

The 2nd and 3rd clips are two halves of the same administration bond. Bonds are normally in two halves -- the 'obligation' (3rd clip, in Latin) comes first, followed by the 'condition' (2nd clip, in English).

None of the documents you've posted is a will. I'm afraid they're not likely to help much (if at all) in answering your genealogical queries.
Title: Re: Berkshire Will
Post by: horselydown86 on Saturday 16 December 17 05:13 GMT (UK)
A few suggestions to add to goldie's transcript of the accounts:

...the Archdeaconry of berkes...

I think the beginning of the second section is:

Inp(ri)mis this accomptant chargeth her self w(i)th...

It's Su(m)ma oneris but I can't get the last word.

In the list:

...spent at his funerall...

Agree with mutton.

Much as I love the thought of them consuming partridge, I see that word as pigges.

(I know that porcke has already been listed.)

...in monie [possibly monies] bestowed upp(on) the poore...

...for a monitio(n) to [cautio(n)?] the creditors...

...for her charges spent in p(ro)curing this administration...

Not sure about the next bit, but I think it ends with: ...to passe her account
Title: Re: Berkshire Will
Post by: horselydown86 on Saturday 16 December 17 05:27 GMT (UK)
Last section of the accounts:

[Itm] for proctors fees & for conceyving this account }
& putting it in wretinge                              }_________________________vjs viijd

Itm for ingrossing this Account______________________________________iijs iijd

Itm for the decree of passing this account______________________________xs

Itm for the quietus est_______________________________________________xs



Sum(m)a tot(alis) vli xis vjd


Itm this Accomptant praieth to be allowed for the

detes following w(hi)ch she hath discharged & p(ai)d

Itm p(ai)d to ffrancis [heliar?/treliar?] of hamshire____________________xxli

Itm p(ai)d to James [Spir?]______________________________________________xxli
Title: Re: Berkshire Will
Post by: JSHD2011 on Saturday 16 December 17 08:20 GMT (UK)
You are most kind,

I am in awe actually at how you do it.   You are hard working people I think but also gifted.

JD
Title: Re: Berkshire Will
Post by: Bookbox on Saturday 16 December 17 16:31 GMT (UK)
I’ve done the two administration bonds for you, as best I can.
 
Each bond is in 2 halves – the ‘obligation’ in Latin (+ translation), followed by the ‘condition’ in English.

It’s clear that both men died intestate, so there are no valid wills.

=====
Bond for George Ilsley

[extract George Ilsley 3]
Noverint univ(er)si per p(rese)ntes me Joh(ann)em Palm(er)(?) de Wolhampton in
Com(itatu) Berks smith teneri et firmiter obligari Thome White
legum doctori Archi(diaco)no Berks in Viginti libris bone et legalis
monete Anglie solvend(is) eid(em) Thom(e) White aut suo c(er)to Attorn(ato)
executoribus vel successorib(us) suis Ad qua(m) quide(m) soluc(i)o(n)em b(e)n(e)
et fideliter faciendam obligo me heredes et executores meos fir(-)
miter per p(rese)ntes sigillo meo sigillatas Dat(um) xxvto Die me(n)sis
Junij Anno regni D(om)ine nostre Elizabethe dei gratia Anglie
Francie et Hibernie Regine fidei defensoris &c. Nono: 1567


[translation]
May all men know by these presents that I John Palm(er)(?) of Woolhampton in the county of Berks, smith, am held and firmly bound to Thomas White, Doctor of Laws, Archdeacon of Berkshire, in (the sum of) twenty pounds of good and lawful money of England to be paid to the same Thomas White or to his certain attorney, his executors or successors; for this very payment well and truly to be made, I firmly bind myself (and) my heirs and executors by these presents; sealed with my seal; given the twenty-fifth day of the month of June in the ninth year of the reign of our Lady Elizabeth, by the grace of God Queen of England, France and Ireland, Defender of the Faith etc. 1567

[extract George Illsley 2]
The condic(i)on of this obligac(i)on is suche that where thadm(ini)strac(i)on of all &
sing(u)ler the goodd(es) & catalles of george Ilsley late of Brimpton in the cou(n)tie
of Berks deceased intestate is by thauthoritie of the w(i)thin named Arch
Deacon com(m)itted to Margery his wife If the said Margery her executors
and assignes do well & truly administer the goodd(es) of the said george de(-)
ceased and doe pay his dett(es) and legacies if he left any As far
as the said goodd(es) shall extend And do make a trew and per(-)
fecte accompt of the Administrac(i)on in this behalf whensoever she
shall therunto (be) required That then this present obligac(i)on be void
and of none effecte Or els to stand in his full power strength
and virtue

Title: Re: Berkshire Will
Post by: Bookbox on Saturday 16 December 17 16:33 GMT (UK)
Bond for John Illesley

[extract John Illesley 5]

Nov(er)int univ(er)si p(er) p(rese)ntes nos Joh(ann)em Illesley de Aldermaston in com(itatu) Berks gener(osum) et Jacobu(m) Spyer

eodem in com(itatu) p(re)d(icto) Tanner teneri et firmiter obligari venerabili viro Edwardo W(...)te in l(egum) bacchal(aureato)

Archinatus Berks officiali l(egi)time constitut(o) in Ducent(is) libris bone et legalis monetæ Anglie

solvend(is) eidem Edwardo aut suo certo attornato Executoribus successoribus suis Assignat(is) suis

Ad qua(m) quidem soluc(i)o(n)em bene et fidel(ite)r faciend(am) obligamus nos et utrumq(ue) n(ost)rum p(er) se p(ro) toto et insolido

heredes Executores et Administratores n(ost)ros firmiter p(er) p(rese)ntes Sigillis n(ost)ris Sigillat(um) Dat(um)

decimo die me(n)sis Novembris Anno Regni D(omi)ne n(ost)re Elizabethe Dei gr(ati)a Anglie Franncie

et Hibernie Regine fidei Defensoris &c. Tricesimo secundo Annoq(ue) D(omi)ni 1590


[translation]
May all men know by these presents that we, John Illesley of Aldermaston in the county of Berks, gentleman, and James Spyer of the same place in the aforesaid county, tanner, are held and firmly bound to the Worshipful Edward W(...)te, Bachelor of Laws, the lawfully constituted official of the Archdeaconry of Berks, in (the sum of) two hundred pounds of good and lawful money of England to be paid to the same Edward or to his certain attorney, his executors, successors or assigns; for this very payment to be well and faithfully made we bind ourselves, and each one of us for himself, for the whole and undivided amount, (and we bind) our heirs, executors and administrators firmly by these presents; sealed with our seals; given the tenth day of the month of November in the thirty-second year of the reign of our Lady Elizabeth, by the grace of God Queen of England, France and Ireland, Defender of the Faith etc., and in the year of the Lord 1590

<signed> John I(...)lye   James Spyer

Sealed and delivered in the
p(re)sence of John Smythe
Richard mills
Martin (?)


[extract John Illesley 4]
The condic(i)on of this obligac(i)on is suche that whereas the Administrac(i)on of all & sing(u)ler the good(es)

Credits(?) and Debt(es) of John Illesley of Aldermaston late deceased intestate is by the w(i)thin

named officiall granted to Elizabeth Illesley the late wyffe of the sayde deceased

Yf therefore the sayde Elizabeth do well and trewly Administer in and (upon?) the sayde good(es)

& paye his debt(es) and legacies yf any do appeare so farr as the sayde good(es) will extende &
 
(...)her and make a trewe and p(er)fect accompte of and upon her sayde Administrac(i)on and

dischardge her selffe sufficiently thereof before tharchedeacon of Berks or his officiall

and deliv(er) unto the naturall and lawfull children of the sayde deceased yf he hath

any such parte and portion of the good(es) of theyre sayde father deceased or a te(...)e

thereof suche some or somes in pounds of moneye as thadm(ini)stratrix(?) for the tyme beinge shall com(m)itt and

alott unto them and at suche tyme or tymes as he shall appoynte And fynallie do defend

dischardge save and keepe harmeles the w(i)thin named officiall his officers and ministers agaynst

all manner of p(er)sons alwayes and at all tymes for granntinge & com(m)ittinge this Administrac(i)on

of the sayde good(es) unto her Then this obligac(i)on to be voyde frustrate & of none

effecte or els to stande and be in his full power force strength effecte & vertue

h(ab)et ad exhibend(um) Inventariu(m) citra festu(m) Annunciacionis prox(imum)

= must submit an inventory before the next Feast of the Annunciation
Title: Re: Berkshire Will
Post by: JSHD2011 on Saturday 16 December 17 16:46 GMT (UK)
Thank you Bookbox,

What an interesting Christmas this is turning out to be.

It looks like Georges money was totalling twenty pounds and John's two hundred and it was then left to Margery and Elizabeth respectively to administer these amounts.  Unfortunately, the accompanying documents for George do not appear as thorough as those for John.
Title: Re: Berkshire Will
Post by: Bookbox on Saturday 16 December 17 16:54 GMT (UK)
It looks like Georges money was totalling twenty pounds and John's two hundred and it was then left to Margery and Elizabeth respectively to administer these amounts.

No, the amounts of £20 and £200 are the value of the respective bonds, not of the estates. These amounts were the penalties that would have to be paid if the administration was not carried out according to the law.
Title: Re: Berkshire Will
Post by: JSHD2011 on Saturday 16 December 17 16:56 GMT (UK)
Ok thanks again  :).  I had missed your earlier post about these not being Wills.  My apologise.
Title: Re: Berkshire Will
Post by: Bookbox on Saturday 16 December 17 16:59 GMT (UK)
No problem. Just to explain further, a bond is a promise to do something – in this case, to administer an estate – according to certain terms and conditions, and a penalty would be payable if the terms were not met.
Title: Re: Berkshire Will
Post by: JSHD2011 on Saturday 16 December 17 17:02 GMT (UK)
Thanks,

I'm feeling a little ripped off by the BRO  >:( It's a bit like buying a beefburger and just getting the bread and no beaf (not even a lettuce leaf)
Title: Re: Berkshire Will
Post by: Bookbox on Saturday 16 December 17 17:23 GMT (UK)
I appreciate it's disappointing. Many probate indexes and catalogues specify whether a probate document is a will or an administration/inventory/bond etc., but perhaps not the one you consulted :(
Title: Re: Berkshire Will
Post by: JSHD2011 on Saturday 16 December 17 17:42 GMT (UK)
Found some on the national archive that may help.
Title: Re: Berkshire Will
Post by: JSHD2011 on Saturday 16 December 17 21:12 GMT (UK)
They are huge documents which I have now downloaded far too big to get on here.

Is there some way I might negotiate a price with you all to get these over to you and translated?

 :)
Title: Re: Berkshire Will
Post by: Bookbox on Saturday 16 December 17 22:49 GMT (UK)
There are lots of people here on RootsChat who can help with these kinds of wills.

I suggest you first have a try at reading the one you've posted. Then if you need help, snip it into smaller sections, post them on here together with your transcript, and we'll try to help you fill the gaps. That's usually the way this board works best.

Alternatively, if perhaps you are just ‘fishing’ for connections to known family members, it may be better, as a first step, just to extract the names and the relationships. Depending on the results, you could then decide whether to try transcribing the whole will.
Title: Re: Berkshire Will
Post by: JSHD2011 on Sunday 17 December 17 10:45 GMT (UK)
I've read as much as I can with little success in terms of getting words out.   I can read the in the name of god amen bit but either its my eyes or brain but I cannot seem to understand most of the words yet.

Its definitely the 'In The Name of God Amen' bit we are interested in and yes just fishing for names but any other information we can get is also useful in terms of 'understanding' so a full transcription is best.

Att.
Title: Re: Berkshire Will
Post by: JSHD2011 on Sunday 17 December 17 10:55 GMT (UK)
William 2 & 4
Title: Re: Berkshire Will
Post by: JSHD2011 on Sunday 17 December 17 10:56 GMT (UK)
William 3

Sorry if that was inconvenient it was to do with the size of the files.
Title: Re: Berkshire Will
Post by: JSHD2011 on Sunday 17 December 17 11:00 GMT (UK)
I can make out the words Stoner in the middle of it.    We are not so interested in the Stoner bits at the current time.
Title: Re: Berkshire Will
Post by: Bookbox on Sunday 17 December 17 17:00 GMT (UK)
I've done the first extract for you. Perhaps this might help you read what follows in the other extracts?

=====

In the name of god amen the Seconde daye of Marche Anno a thousand

fyve hundred Seaventie fyve I William Hildesleye of Crom(ar)sshe gifforde in the Countie of oxon

gent Being weke of bodye but of mynde and memorie hole and perfecte doo make and ordeyne

this my last will and testament in manner and forme fo^r^me followinge First I bequeathe my soule

to almightie god my onelie Maker and Redemo(ur) by whose deathe and passion I hope to be saved and

my bodye to be buried within the parrisshe Churche of Crom(ar)she gifforde aforsaide  Item I will that

all suche Moneye as I have Coven^a^nted w(i)th Hu(m)frey Burdett gent uppon the Marriage of Walter

myne eldest sonne to dorothie his daughter to pay or cause to be paide for the Advanncemente of

the saide Walter w(hi)ch is Fyve hundred poundes and w(hi)ch holie is as yet unpaide shalbe first paide

and dischardged and my Money debtes due to me and Chattells personalls shall first be subiecte & tied

to the payment thereof  And that paide and dischardged then I will the Som(m)es of Moneye

hereafter gyven or bequeathed shalbe paide of my gooddes Som(m)es of moneye and debtes due to me received

and paide that is to say  I gyve to the Mother Churche of oxon Sixe shillinges eighte pence  Item to the

poore people of Crom(ar)sshe and Newneham twentie shillinges  Item to the poor of Wallingforde twentie

Shillinges  Item to the poore of Bensington Tenne Shillinges All w(hi)ch shalbe delivered to the Churche

Wardens of the saide places to be distributed  Item I gyve and bequeathe to Edmu(n)d and Franncis

my sonnes one Hundrethe poundes a pece to be paide to them at their severall dayes of their Mariag(es)

or within three yeares after my decesse at the choise of myne Executo(r)s and in the meane tyme untill

full payment thereof made I bequeathe to eche of them Fyve poundes to be paide yerelie untill the

whole hundreth poundes to hym due shalbe paide  Item I gyve to William my sonne one Hundrethe

poundes to be paide to hym at the daye of his Mariage and in the meane tyme yf he contynue his

studye to have convenient fyndinge for his Maineten^a^nce in the Universitie or in any Inne of Co(ur)te

or [Inne of deleted] Chauncerie  Item I gyve and bequeathe to Katherine my daughter one Hundreth Markes to

be paide to her at the daye of her Mariage  And yf anye of the same Foure Children dye before

their saide porcions receyved Then I will the porcion of the same my Childe so dyinge shalbe

delivered to the Survyvo(ur)s at the saide tyme appointed for the receipte of their other Legacies  Item I

will to Edmonde Willia(m)son my daughter Maries sonne twentie poundes to be paide w(i)thin fyve Yeares

after my deceasse  Item I will and bequeathe to William Bigge fyve poundes unto Walter Bygge

Fyftene poundes and to Thom(a)s Bygge Fyve poundes (whiche three be sonnes to my sonne in lawe Walter

Bygge) to be paide to them when they shall come to thage of one and twentie yeares  Item to Katherine ...

Title: Re: Berkshire Will
Post by: JSHD2011 on Sunday 17 December 17 19:00 GMT (UK)
Thank you.  I can make out the smaller words much better now but still struggling.   I cannot seem to find the words 'Hildesley' or 'cousin' either of which would be a bonus.

 ;D
Title: Re: Berkshire Will
Post by: Bookbox on Sunday 17 December 17 19:19 GMT (UK)
I cannot seem to find the words 'Hildesley' or 'cousin' either of which would be a bonus.

The first time the name Hildesleye occurs is in extract 1, line 2, immediately underneath the word amen. It is spelt and written in several different ways throughout, including one example of Ilesley (see extract 4, 2 lines above the Probate clause).

The only ‘cousin’ I can see mentioned is in extract 4, line 8 (as showing above) ...
... Item I gyve to my Cosen John Ston(er) my brother Henrie Ston(er)s sonne

Does that help?
Title: Re: Berkshire Will
Post by: JSHD2011 on Sunday 17 December 17 19:45 GMT (UK)
Yes!

That helps a lot and confirms what I had thought.   There is no mention of the blood cousins only cousins in law so not worth concentrating on for us.

Thank you again for all the help.
Title: Re: Berkshire Will
Post by: Bookbox on Sunday 17 December 17 20:01 GMT (UK)
You're welcome.

To help get a grasp of the standard forms of handwriting found in documents at this period, there’s a very good palaeography tutorial on the National Archives website. There are plenty of practice documents there -- and the key to fluency is lots and lots of practice.

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/palaeography/
Title: Re: Berkshire Will
Post by: JSHD2011 on Sunday 17 December 17 20:05 GMT (UK)
I will definitely look into Paleographics,

Do have a question about the date of this one it look like the four and thirtieth year of our sovereign king.......Charles the Second

that can't be right can it?
Title: Re: Berkshire Will
Post by: Bookbox on Sunday 17 December 17 20:10 GMT (UK)
Yes, it's correct. The year is 1682, which is 34 Charles II. The regnal years of Charles II are reckoned from the death of Charles I in 1649, discounting the Interregnum.

ADDED - see here http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/palaeography/quick_reference.htm
(scroll down to Regnal Years)
Title: Re: Berkshire Will
Post by: JSHD2011 on Sunday 17 December 17 20:32 GMT (UK)
Ah I see  8)
Title: Re: Berkshire Will
Post by: JSHD2011 on Tuesday 19 December 17 17:58 GMT (UK)
Got another one,

Walter this time from the BRO but a Will time.
Title: Re: Berkshire Will
Post by: Bookbox on Tuesday 19 December 17 20:23 GMT (UK)
Can I suggest you have a go at it yourself first, and then post snips of any parts you need help with?
Title: Re: Berkshire Will
Post by: JSHD2011 on Tuesday 19 December 17 20:41 GMT (UK)
Ok Will do but its the most difficult i've encountered

e.g. Att.
Title: Re: Berkshire Will
Post by: Bookbox on Tuesday 19 December 17 22:41 GMT (UK)
In the name of God Ame(n) the 7th daye of Januarie in the yeare
of our Lord God 1610*  I Walter Ilsdesleye of Burghfield
in the countie of Berks husbandma(n) beinge sicke in bodie but of
good memorie praysed be God, doe ordayne & make my last
will & testame(n)t in manner & for(me) followeing v(idelicet)** First
I bequeath my soule unto almightie God my only Saviour
and Redemer and my bodie to be buried in the church yearde
of the parrish church of Burghfield  Ite(m) I geve & bequeath
unto my second son Walter Ildesleye the sum of ten pou(n)d(es)
of good & lawfull moneye of England to be payd out of my
land(es) in Burghfield in the tythinge of Shefield w(i)thin one quar(-)
ter of a yeare after my decease Also I geve and
bequeath unto my daughter Agnis Ildesley xxs yearely
to be payd out of my foresayd land(es) [deletion] after
my decease at ij usuall tymes of the year in even
portions v(idelicet) ten shilling(es) at the next halfe yeare
after my decease,


* = 7 January 1611 in the modern calendar
** = namely

Title: Re: Berkshire Will
Post by: JSHD2011 on Wednesday 20 December 17 08:53 GMT (UK)
Thank you,
I need to verify this with you.  This is what the first couple of lines look like to me currently:
..live you grand......paid..next...belonging..paid...lagey...at...fought...at...fall....

 ::)
Title: Re: Berkshire Will
Post by: horselydown86 on Wednesday 20 December 17 10:53 GMT (UK)
I have done 5 more lines:

...after my decease & [?] shillinges [deleted] everie

halfe yeare followinge during her naturall life

Alsoe I geve unto her ye ^said Agnes my daughter^ one cha(m)ber [rume?] of my [Cousin?]

where I nowe [i(n)habite?] belonging unto the said lady as

longe as shee shall kepe her selfe unmarried w(hi)ch cha(m)ber...
Title: Re: Berkshire Will
Post by: Bookbox on Wednesday 20 December 17 11:20 GMT (UK)
This hand is extremely hard, and I’m glad you got the interlineation, HD.

Another suggestion for lines 3-4 above ...

  ... one cha(m)ber rume of my house
where I nowe inhabite belongeinge unto the said land(es)


ADDED - it's very hard to see whether there is a final e on the end of some of these words, or just a flourish.
Title: Re: Berkshire Will
Post by: Bookbox on Wednesday 20 December 17 11:59 GMT (UK)
A few more lines ...

                                  ... w(hi)ch cha(m)ber

shalbe where I my selfe nowe doe lye beinge the southend(?)

part of the house next adioyninge to the kitchin. Item

I doe geve unto Robert Ildesleye my eldest son my house

& land(es) therto* belongeinge to him and ^to^ his heires for ever

(lyeing?) in Shenfield in the parrish of Burghfield as aforsaide

provided alwayes that if the aforesaid ten poundes

of good & lawfull money of England be not payde

w(i)thin vj monthes accordinge to the true meaninge of

this my last will & testament unto my aforsaid son [Robert deleted]

(Wal)ter Ildesleye or to his ex(e)cut(or)s or assignes the(n) it shalbe

lawefull for the said Walter ^Ildsley^ to enter into ^two^ plott(es) ...


=====
* = thereto ?
Title: Re: Berkshire Will
Post by: Bookbox on Wednesday 20 December 17 12:58 GMT (UK)
I need to verify this with you.  This is what the first couple of lines look like to me currently:
..live you grand......paid..next...belonging..paid...lagey...at...fought...at...fall....

JSHD2011, excellent that you had a stab at this.

It’s very hard to distinguish individual letters in this hand, because it's cursive and quite loosely written. The letter that looks like f is often h. At this period the letter h usually has a descender (below the line), which can make it hard to distinguish from f and from a 'long' s.

For this sort of hand, there’s a specimen alphabet here, which might help ...
https://folgerpedia.folger.edu/mediawiki/media/images_pedia_folgerpedia_mw/2/21/Alphabet_Abbreviations.pdf (see pp. 5-6).
Title: Re: Berkshire Will
Post by: JSHD2011 on Wednesday 20 December 17 13:59 GMT (UK)
I can make out the name John I think near the end.

This goes to the end of the second page.
Title: Re: Berkshire Will
Post by: horselydown86 on Wednesday 20 December 17 14:51 GMT (UK)
A few more lines:

...of the landes called budockesham & the [mead(ow)?] plott therto

adioyning next unto the said house and the same to

hold to him & his assignes for ten yeares next and

imediatlye following the said entrannce. Also if

it shall happe(n) the sume of twe(n)tye shillinges yearely

above writte(n) to be unpayd unto the said Agnes my

daughter...
Title: Re: Berkshire Will
Post by: JSHD2011 on Wednesday 20 December 17 16:50 GMT (UK)
Thanks you!   There's more and although I am clearly making progress and will be as good as you are at some point.....would appreciate some more help. :-\
Title: Re: Berkshire Will
Post by: Bookbox on Wednesday 20 December 17 17:50 GMT (UK)
Up to the end of extract 3 (in reply #44) ...

... daughter in manner & forme above written, above

the space of one monthe after the dayes before

me(n)tioned, then it shalbe lawfull for the said Agnes

to take ani (...dist...?) in the sayd house orchard or landes

and that to sell & paye ^unto^ her selfe the su(m)e of money

unto her dower w(i)thout the lett or co(n)tradictio(n)e of the

said Robert or of ani other p(er)son or p(er)sons whosoever

Title: Re: Berkshire Will
Post by: horselydown86 on Wednesday 20 December 17 18:24 GMT (UK)
I think it's ...anie distres..., in the sense of distraint.


A handful of lines before bed:

...I doe geve & bequeath unto my daughter Elizabeth [?]

ton of Reading thirty shillinges of gold and

laufull money of England to be payd unto her w(i)thin three

mo(n)thes after my decease  It(e)m I doe geve unto [Reginald?] Ildesley

the son of my son Robert Ildesley one great charger of pewter

I doe geve to marye Ildesleye ^eldest^ daughter of my son Robert

one platter of pewter...
Title: Re: Berkshire Will
Post by: JSHD2011 on Wednesday 20 December 17 19:18 GMT (UK)
Thank you,

due to be on the road for the next couple of days.

JD
Title: Re: Berkshire Will
Post by: Bookbox on Wednesday 20 December 17 22:42 GMT (UK)
A bit more ...

=====
It(em) I doe geve unto Jone Ildesley

the second daughter to my son Robert one platter of

pewter  It(em) I doe geve unto the fower childre(n) of my daugh(-)

ter Emberto(n)* of Readinge ^to^ eche one of the(m) j platter of pewter

Ite(m) I doe geve unto my said daughter Agnes Ildesleye

the bedstede w(i)th the bed & other furniture(?) therunto

belongeinge w(hi)ch is in the cha(m)ber in the wh(i)ch I doe nowe lye &

have bequeathed unto her after my decease as above

writte(n)  Ite(m) I doe geve unto my son Walter Ildesleye

my second best bed. the rest of my good(es) & cattell(s)

unbequeathed I geve unto my son Robert Ildesley

whome I make my sole executor of this my last

will & testame(n)t to the end he should paye all my debtes

& discharge all my funerall expenses ... 


=====
* this is probably the surname of the daughter Elizabeth written at the end of line 1 in extract 4
Title: Re: Berkshire Will
Post by: horselydown86 on Thursday 21 December 17 03:22 GMT (UK)
...expenses.  And of this my

last will & testame(n)t I make my overseers Richard

Pottinger & Willia(m) [Awbaer?] bothe of the parrishe

of [Bargesffielde/Burgesffielde]  In witnes of this my last will &

testame(n)t I have hereunto set my hand & seale the

daye & yeare above written

                       The marke of
                       Walter Ildesleye
Title: Re: Berkshire Will
Post by: JSHD2011 on Tuesday 26 December 17 11:31 GMT (UK)
Thanks,

Happy Christmas to your good selves.

This is the end of that page.   The final page I think I can attempt some of
Title: Re: Berkshire Will
Post by: JSHD2011 on Tuesday 26 December 17 11:41 GMT (UK)
Inventorie,
Of will and ????? the goods and chattels late Walter Hildesley of Burghfieldin the county of Berkshire ????? == mind ???? taken and purified the ????? ????? of January 1610 by ???? Richard Pottingox, Rob?  Brook, William Dorbury and John Font ??

Invrimio
Latin
Title: Re: Berkshire Will
Post by: horselydown86 on Tuesday 26 December 17 13:57 GMT (UK)
Signed & sealed as the last will & testament of Walter Ilsdesley
in the p(re)sens of us Gilbert Johnson parso(n) of Burghfield

Ric(har)d Potinger willia(m) Awbree his marke

Richard Allowaye John Simons his marke


********************************************************************

The Inventorie of all and singuler

the goods and Chattles late Walter Ildeslyes

of Burghfield in the County of Berkes Husband=

=man deceassed, taken and prised the xvjth daye

of January 1610. by us Richard Pottinger, Rob(er)t

Brooke, will(ia)m Awbery and John Kent &c

Inprimis...



The remainder is in English.  Have a go at it yourself.
Title: Re: Berkshire Will
Post by: JSHD2011 on Tuesday 26 December 17 14:39 GMT (UK)
ok thanks
Title: Re: Berkshire Will
Post by: Bookbox on Tuesday 26 December 17 15:10 GMT (UK)
The Latin probate clause (showing at the end of extract 6) translates as ...

This above-written will of Walter Ildeslie, deceased, was proved before William Mar(...), Master of Arts, the lawfully constituted surrogate of the Worshipful Henry Marten, Doctor of Laws, Official of the Archdeaconry of Berks, at Reading on the ninth day of February in the Year of the Lord 1610 etc.;* administration was granted to the executor named in this will, both for the truth of the aforesaid will and to well and faithfully bring the same to completion; sworn on the Holy Gospels of God in due form of law, saving the rights of whomsoever etc.
Inventory - 15 pounds 3 shillings 8 pence.

          * = 9 February 1611 in the modern calendar
Title: Re: Berkshire Will
Post by: BushInn1746 on Tuesday 26 December 17 15:24 GMT (UK)
Regarding Richard Pottinger in your document, an internet search return for "Burghfield, Berks" gives a book:-
Page 358, The Roll of Distinguished Wykehamists.

34. POTENGER, JOHN, B.D. (1642), of Burghfield, Berks :
fellow of New College, Aug. 13, 1620. He resigned owing to the
puritanical innovations in the school. He died in Dec. 1659.

archive.org is down currently for scheduled maintenance

Seems to be up and running click on this link ...
https://archive.org/stream/williamofwykeham00walcuoft

and search "Potenger"

See also page 418 (besides p.358)

May be related to Richard Pottinger, but Potenger links to the place in your document.

Regards Mark
Title: Re: Berkshire Will
Post by: BushInn1746 on Tuesday 26 December 17 15:48 GMT (UK)
Page 96, the printed Calendar of Berkshire (Index), of Wills and Admins (re Reply #52):-
https://archive.org/stream/indextowillsprov23berkuoft

1610 Ildeslie, Walter, Burfield L.134

In Old English i becomes y ... so look out for Ildeslye and Ildeslyes (and ending ... ley) as well, when searching the internet.

Further down page 96, possible Surname spelling variations.

Regarding place, it looks like Burghfield may also be spelt Burfield (alias spellings)?

Mark
Title: Re: Berkshire Will
Post by: JSHD2011 on Tuesday 26 December 17 18:03 GMT (UK)
Thank you, thank you,

Feel an opportunity to wax lyrical:
The Hildesley, Ildesley, Yildesley, Ilsley people are from what is now East and West Ilsley in the Compton 100, Berkshire, UK.  It turns out the Hildesley family were recusant RC so the Pottinger connection makes sense.   Many of the Hildeslely daughters ended up in Liege.   
There was a Francis Hildesley who would have been a distant cousin of Walter but who may be the main source of our Y Chromosome matches with american families with the names Wilson and Lupton (of Leeds)?!   One of the main common denominators is Recusant families of Berkshire so Moore, Lyford possibly Arden.  (I've been able to read the attached.)
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Vdc9AAAAcAAJ&pg=PA53&lpg=PA53&dq=isabella+ildesle+married+william+moore&source=bl&ots=T76CGS69dr&sig=DcmxNQ1xeXmdEL2gi4GxJwpACJk&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjV2L_6p6jYAhXFIcAKHdrQDegQ6AEIMDAB#v=onepage&q=isabella%20ildesle%20married%20william%20moore&f=false
Title: Re: Berkshire Will
Post by: JSHD2011 on Tuesday 26 December 17 18:55 GMT (UK)
Still hasn't solved our mystery but very interesting.   Francis (Sir) was a bit of a one and there was some scandal about Bulmer Hall in Yorkshire.  Where, he, Francis and his side kick Marmaduke Ettys buddy John Wilson (rev) ended up in prison for being the clerk for Francis and Marmaduke in the sale of Bulmer Hall?
Title: Re: Berkshire Will
Post by: JSHD2011 on Tuesday 26 December 17 19:10 GMT (UK)
We've got William Ildesley (c.1545) married Joanne Piper in Compton c.1570 on my fathers line but we are struggling to link with the origin which we believe to be in the Hildesley family somewhere.   One of Williams daughters married a Thos Lyford of Peasemore and Stanford Dingle.
Title: Re: Berkshire Will
Post by: BushInn1746 on Wednesday 27 December 17 09:11 GMT (UK)
Still hasn't solved our mystery but very interesting.   Francis (Sir) was a bit of a one and there was some scandal about Bulmer Hall in Yorkshire.  Where, he, Francis and his side kick Marmaduke Ettys buddy John Wilson (rev) ended up in prison for being the clerk for Francis and Marmaduke in the sale of Bulmer Hall?


A Bulmer Hall & Rev John Wilson mentioned here:-

In the Howard-Vyse collection (they occupied/became owners of Langton Hall, about 3 miles South of Malton, Yorkshire)

[See also Northcliffe of Langton for predecessor of Howard-Vyse at Langton]

East Riding Record Office

Reference: DDEL/37/36

Title: Bargain and sale of lands in Langton

Description: Parties: 1) Henry Bulmer of Leavening, gentleman 2) Reverend John Wilson of Bulmer Property: capital messuage called Bulmer Hall [Newe Hall] with 5 closes called Backgarth, Pynderclose, the Holme, the Croftes, and Playne Syke; 4 oxgangs and lands called the flatts and furby lands; messuage and 4 oxgangs; all in Langton Witnesses: Henry Thompson (2 pieces), William Phillipe, Thomas Bulmer, James Simsone, and Raymond Nandyke

16 July 1609


The Heralds Office is the College of Arms


Quarter Sessions Records, Helmesley 1622
John Wilson of Bulmer juxta Welburne ... mentioned here on page 142, see [121] on p.142 ...
https://archive.org/stream/quartersessionr00atkigoog

John Wilson of Bulmer juxta Welbume, Clarke, for harbouring John Francke and his wife, Ann Holden and her three children, as inmates and undersettles; ...


Mark
Title: Re: Berkshire Will
Post by: JSHD2011 on Wednesday 27 December 17 10:13 GMT (UK)
Mark,
This is what we got:
Lots of things for sale under James including a frenzy of Knighthoods in 1603
Yes that's seems likely although it was probably more to do with the recusancy.  Vis Bulmer Hall:
" ..In 1611 (fn. 57) it was conveyed by Philip Smith and Katharine his wife to Josiah Fawether 'of Howlesworth,' who in 1613 (fn. 58) agreed to its purchase by John Wilson, clerk, trustee for the real purchasers. The sale was not, however, completed; litigation followed and in 1623–4 Wilson was in prison at the suit of Fawether. (fn. 59).."    found here
If this is the same one as here:
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/d9fe61d9-bb9d-4ec2-ae24-9c09ad76d3a6
Then it wasn't so much of a Bargain on account of his old etonian/grays inn/recusant families of Berkshire buddies Marmaduke Etty and Francis Hildesley see here:
https://library.leeds.ac.uk/multimedia/imu/20189/YAS_MD237.pdf
Page 3

I think this is John https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wilson_(minister)
nb/the final bracket of above url does not seem to work so has to be manually typed in

We've contacted our American YDNA Wilson 'cousins' but generally americans do not seem pre disposed to look into the early ancestry.
Title: Re: Berkshire Will
Post by: BushInn1746 on Wednesday 27 December 17 10:50 GMT (UK)
The Bargain and Sale is a document.

Transfer of property by Bargain and Sale usually had to enrolled:-

https://www.nottingham.ac.uk/manuscriptsandspecialcollections/researchguidance/deedsindepth/freehold/bargainsale.aspx

I'm interested in the ancient place of Stockingford, Warwickshire which had its own Chapel and Mills before the dissolution by Henry VIII (Stockingford was adjacent the boundaries of Arley, Ansley, Hartshill, in the far West part of the Parish of Nuneaton) and Lord Paget's Moiety of the former Manor at Stockingford (Stockingford renamed Galley Common by Mr Galley of Stockingford) was a transfer by Bargain and Sale in 1765 (enrolled according to the documents). A Feoffment accompanies the document referring to the Bargain and Sale.


Mark
Title: Re: Berkshire Will
Post by: JSHD2011 on Wednesday 27 December 17 11:07 GMT (UK)
Mark,

That is quite a long way up.      We were interested in Park Hall at one time.

JD