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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: dorothyl on Saturday 16 December 17 00:20 GMT (UK)
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Hi
I am in need of some help again. This time slightly different.
Please can anyone help me .where I can find out if my gran was adopted or not. As there seems to be no records of her birth. I only have her name and date of birth. I don't know if she was born in Scotland or England. Only that she moved to Scotland around the late 1950's. Where she continued to live until she passed away.
I only know her father's name and her mother's maiden name. Which is on afew of her certificates.
I would really appreciate any help I've tried every thing else.
Thank you again for your help and time
Yours sincerely
Mrs Dorothy Lucas
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Hi, Some names would be helpful.
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Sorry Dorothy but we can't help unless you give us her name and her parent's names plus dates.
I only know her father's name and her mother's maiden name. Which is on a few of her certificates.
Which certificates are these?
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Hi
Thank you. I didn't know if I could put her details on.
Here's what I know from my mum. My grans name is eveline shulman. But on my mum's birth certificate. It says mother's maiden name is formaly hill. My grans birth day is 26th of February 1911.
Her father's name was David Joseph shulman. I don't know what her mum's name was. Except her maiden name was hill. So it looks like my grans maiden name was either hill or shulman. As I don't know if my grans parents was married or not.
My gran lived in England maybe most of her life as she was living in cholton on Medlock Manchester number 192 upper brook Street. When she met my grandad. They both married in 1933.December. and in 1937 they became parents. By the late 1950's my gran moved to Scotland where she continued to live until she passed away in 1998..
If there's anything else I've missed out please let me know. I have certificates except for my grans birth certificate.
Apparently I've been told maybe my gran was adopted age 5 months but her biological father is David Joseph shulman. Which I am confused about.
I would really appreciate any help as it's confusing me. My mum always said her mum was born in Scotland.
According to the registra office in Scotland there's no birth records.
I hope everything I've put is ok?
Thank you again for your help and time
Yours sincerely
Mrs Dorothy Lucas
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Sorry I forgot to say.
I have my grandparents marriage certificate. My mum's birth certificate and my grans death certificate.
My grandparents marriage certificate is Manchester. ( she was married in Manchester where she was living )
My mum's birth certificate is Manchester. ( my mum's birth certificate is where my grandparents was living when they had my mum )
My grans death certificate is from Scotland. Where she passed away ( my gran was living in Scotland when she passed away )
I'm sorry I forgot to mention them.
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Maybe relevant...
Eveline Schulman married Alfred E Jones. 1933 Manchester South.
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Evelyn Hill. born Manchester Oct-Nov-Dec 1911. mmn Ancoats.
Evelyn G Hill. born Prescot, Lancashire Jan-Feb-Mar 1911.
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Yes that's my grandad and my gran.
They was living in cholton on Medlock Manchester England before they got married. And both living in the same area. My grandad Alfred evan Jones was living in cholton on Medlock Manchester number 59.Rusholme road. And my gran was living in cholton on Medlock Manchester number 192 upper brook Street.
On the marriage certificate. It says fathers name on my grans. Was David Joseph shulman auctioner deceased.
And she was a spinster and her ocupation was a photographer.
I just can't seem to find where she was born or was she adopted or not. As my mum never mentioned it. Unless she didn't know herself.
On my mum's birth certificate. It says. Name, surname and maiden surname of mother.
Where it has that it's says eveline Jones formally hill.
My gran eveline wasn't married before she married my grandad. Apparently the registra office said. It's my great grans maiden name . So my gran eveline was either born shulman or hill.
Her father's name was David Joseph shulman which is her biological father.
Thank you again
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Thank you.
My gran was born in Feb 1911. My mum use to say that her mum spelt her name evelyn as my middle name is after my gran. Except spelt different. On my grans death certificate it says eveline owens which is her 2nd married name.
What is confusing is I really don't know if she was adopted or not as I've been told maybe she has and that's why we can't find her.
I really do appreciate all help please I just come up with nothing.
Thank you what ever help I can get its a bit further than I have managed to get.
I really can't imagine my gran being adopted.
Thanks again
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There is a David J Shulman. death 1921, Chorlton, Lancashire. age 39.
also
David Joseph Shulman. burial 1921, Blackley Jewish Cemetery Blackley, Metropolitan Borough of Manchester.
also in 1901 census...
David Schulman. b 1883, Scotland.
St James, Central Manchester. He was a patient.
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Thank you.
That's what I've been told. But I wasn't sure if he was the wright one.
Looks like he is my great grandad. My grans father.
Thank you
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Hi does it say
Why David Joseph shulman was a patient?
Also I'm not sure if you can solve this. It's driving me daft.
How can this be.
My gran was born eveline shulman which is her father's surname. She married my grandad and becomes
Eveline Jones. My mum was born 1937.
Here's where I get confused.
How can my grans maiden name be hill before she married my grandad. When her maiden name was shulman. ?-
On my mum's birth certificate it says name. Surname and mother's maiden name.
My gran put eveline Jones formally hill.
This is why I'm trying to find out where my gran was born. Up to now it looks like she was born in England.
But I don't know if she was adopted or not.
I don't think she was. But there is no birth records of her. So if I was going to get her birth certificate.
I wouldn't know what to put as birth name shulman. / hill even though my mum only knew her mum was born eveline shulman.
I wouldn't know what to put. On the form. As I really don't know if she was born in England or Scotland. But there's no records of her in Scotland.
Thank you again for your help.
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The David Schulman born Scotland who is a patient in Royal Infirmary Hospital in 1901 census is listed as a waterproof garment maker, not an auctioneer.
Are there any directories for the area 1900- to see if he is listed?
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The David Schulman born Scotland who is a patient in Royal Infirmary Hospital in 1901 census is listed as a waterproof garment maker, not an auctioneer.
Are there any directories for the area 1900- to see if he is listed?
He was only 18 then so I doubt that he would be an auctioneer.
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Scotland Census, 1891
David Shulman.
Registration District St George.
Midlothian.
Birth Year 1883.
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Just to clear up the adoption issue. If your gran was born in 1911, she wouldn’t have been formally adopted as legal adoption didn’t start until 1927. So if she was adopted there will be no proper records.
I’m finding this difficult to follow, it is better not to keep repeating yourself Dorothy, people will check back for the information. Can you tell us exactly what it says for mother on Evelyn’s birth certificate and where it was issued.
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Hi
Is that the correct David shulman?
Only way I'm asking is because his name was David Joseph shulman.
And apparently he's buried in blackley cemetery in the Jewish part of the cemetery. Also
On my grandparents marriage certificate it says.
David Joseph shulman deceased ( auctioner )
Also on my grans death certificate it says fathers name David Joseph shulman. Deceased ( auctioner )
I'm not doubting anything . Just wondering. Because he was 39 when he passed away in 1921. According to the cemetery in Manchester. ( Blackley cemetery )
Thank you again for your help and time
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There is a school registration for a David Schulman bn c1882 father Benjamin in Manchester
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Hi
I'm sorry about the confusion.
I haven't got my grans birth certificate. This is why I'm trying to find out where she was born.
I was told by Scotland missing people. They can't find any records on her.and said it's possible she was adopted.
Then told me her biological father is David Joseph shulman.
On my mum's birth certificate it says her mother's maiden name is formally hill.
This is why as you say me repeating myself. Which I really do apologise for.
Thank you again for your help
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There is a school registration for a David Schulman bn c1882 father Benjamin in Manchester
I was looking at Benjamin for his father earlier...
Scotland Census, 1891
Benjamin Shulman.
Born 1862.
St George
Midlothian. Same area as David
I think his wife is Dina Shulman. Maybe siblings of David, Samuel Shulman, 1885,
Dora Shulman, 1890.
The 1891, 1901 and Davids death all fit.
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1891 says that David and Samuel are born Manchester, but there are no registration entries for either name in England/Wales - I don't have access to Scottish records. 1901 census says David is born Scotland.
1891 Scottish census says that Benjamin is a water garment maker, which ties in with the 1901 English census entry for David Shulman being a water garment maker.
David Joseph's death certificate may throw light on the mystery.
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I'm not sure that it helps finding Eveline's birth, but there is Benjamin SHULMAN in the 1911 census in Manchester, a waterproof garment maker, born Russia, with family - some of whom were born in Scotland, and others in Manchester. We're not allowed to put details of the 1911 here, but it is transcribed on familysearch, so I think it's ok to post a link:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW18-X9F
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They can't find any records on her.and said it's possible she was adopted.
Then told me her biological father is David Joseph shulman.
How do they know that if they can't find any records?
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1901 Scottish census entry for Benjamin ties in with 1891 Scottish census and 1911 Manchester census.
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Marriage in Scotland
1908 St Machar
David Joseph Schulman + Annie O'Brien
There's a marriage straight after that death of David in March qtr 1921
June 1921 Chorlton 8c 1712
Johnson, Bertram
Shulman, Annie
Lancashire BMD says Register Office or Registrar Attended
Also gives bride as Annie O'Brien
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Marriage in Scotland
1908 St Machar
David Joseph Schulman + Annie O'Brien
Thats thrown a spanner in the works.
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Thank you. For that.
Now I'm totally confused. Lol
My mum's birth certificate says her mum's ( eveline Jones which is her married name )
It says name. Surname and mother's maiden name.
Then it says in the column. Eveline Jones formally hill.
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The index to Scotland 1911 census has
ref 168/2 81/ 2
St Machar (Aberdeen)
Dav Joseph Schulman 29
Annie Schulman 33
Eva Barrett Schulman 5
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Long shot...
1911 census Oldham, Lancashire, Eveline Hill b 1911.
I have'nt got access so I can't see it.
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That's a strange second name. Barrett .
Eva barrett shulman. Why would anyone call there daughter barrett?
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Scotland 1911 census
Do you want me to take a look at it?
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That's a strange second name. Barrett .
Eva barrett shulman. Why would anyone call there daughter barrett?
Maybe previous marriage.
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Oh great
Thank you. I'm so sure my grans maiden name is either shulman or hill. Because there the names on her certificates. Except her birth certificate which I haven't got because I am having trouble trying to find out about her.
I was asked by a member of the group. If there's no birth records how do they know if my gran was adopted.
Which I don't think she was. Otherwise my mum would have mentioned it unless she didn't know.
Thank you again for your help.
I really do appreciate everyone's help.
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Aberdeen St Nicholas
Dav Jos Schulman Head 29 Reporter (Newspaper), Worker, born Manchester England
Annie Schulman Wife 33 Palmiste?, Own Account, born Lucknow India
Fred O'Brien Nephew 5 School, born Glasgow
Eva Barrett Schulman Adoptd Daur 5, born Aberdeen Aberdeen
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Hi Dorothy, Can you post copies of the certificates you have? Just the parts with parents names and maiden name.
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Hi
Daft question.
But what does this mean?
Palmiste?, Own Account,
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Hi
I think it does say Palmiste.
Own account means that she was self employed
Also says that she was working at home.
My grans birth day is 26th of February 1911.
That is quite a way out from the 5 year old Eva Barrett Schulman in the 1911 census though.
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Are we allowed to look up Scotland 1911 on here?
Dorothy, you better save all that quick!
John
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Scotland 1911 census lookups are okay ;)
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Scotland 1911 census lookups are okay ;)
That's a relief!
Thank you.
John
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David Joseph's Schulman occupation is Auctioneer on marriage gives father as Benjamin (occ Waterproof maker) his Mother is Dinah Schulman MS Barrett (deceased)
Annie O'Brien occ Tailoress - father Thomas O'Brien occ Commissionaire - mother Margaret O'Brien MS Kane
Married St Machar 14 December 1908
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his Mother is Dinah Schulman MS Barrett (deceased)
That may explain the Barrett name then!
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Certificates
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Apparently my gran was 5 months old. If she was adopted.
I'm trying to post the certificates I was asked to do. But having a slight problem.
I will try again
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Certificates
Hi Dorothy on your grans death certificate what does it say for her mums name
It should say name married surname (MS) maiden surname
If the MS is Hill it could indicate that her parents were not married and she was registered as Hill but used the surname of her father
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On my grans death certificate.
It just has her dad's name. David Joseph shulman
On my mum's birth certificate. It says her father name and her mother's maiden name is hill.
Her father's name is the same on death certificate and my mum's birth certificate.
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On my grans death certificate.
It just has her dad's name. David Joseph shulman
On my mum's birth certificate. It says her father name and her mother's maiden name is hill.
Her father's name is the same on death certificate and my mum's birth certificate.
So there is ablank space in your grans death certificate for her mothers name. Do you know her mothers name
Sorry just realised you don't have her mothers name
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I wonder if Eveline did not want to give her maiden surname of Schulman and just invented the name of Hill when she registered your mothers birth :-\
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On the 1939 register in Newcastle under Lyme Staffs, is an Eveline Jones (later Owens) with a DOB of 26th Feb 1910, so do we have the right date for gran's birth or are you a year out?
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....but she also gave the wrong year of birth for her daughter - 1938 instead of 1937.
Debra :D
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You have a marriage certificate for 1933.
"On my grandparents marriage certificate it says.
David Joseph shulman deceased ( auctioner ) "
What names witness that 1933 marriage (Albert E Jones & Eveline Hill)? .
Have you purchased the 1921 death certificate to see if that David Joseph Shulman was an auctioneer, who witnessed and the residence address?
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You have a marriage certificate for 1933.
"On my grandparents marriage certificate it says.
David Joseph shulman deceased ( auctioner ) "
What names witness that 1933 marriage (Albert E Jones & Eveline Hill)? .
Have I lost the plot :D
I can't see a 1933 marriage,can someone fill me in please.
I presume this is her 2nd marriage?
Marriages Dec 1946
Jones Eveline to Owens in Manchester 10e 1072
Owens James to Jones in Manchester 10e 1072
Carol
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It is this one Carol
Marriages Dec qtr 1933
Alfred E Jones
Eveline Schulman
Manchester S. 8d 357
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What we really need is the 1921 census (if it is ever released) ::)
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It is this one Carol
Marriages Dec qtr 1933
Alfred E Jones
Eveline Schulman
Manchester S. 8d 357
Thanks Rosie, thought I was going mad ;D
So she's not Eveline Hill there,but Eveline Schulman ::)
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What we really need is the 1921 census (if it is ever released) ::)
2nd Jan 2022......with any amount of luck !
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Middle name for 1933 marriage.
JONES Alfred Evan SCHULMAN Eveline Chorlton-on-Medlock Register Office or Registrar Attended
Can you tell us the declared ages on this marriage,occupation(s) and what names witness?
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There is a very lengthy post on the origins of Alfred Evan Jones but no marriage details apart from the name of his fictitious father http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=783294.0 so no help there ;)
Middle name for 1933 marriage.
JONES Alfred Evan SCHULMAN Eveline Chorlton-on-Medlock Register Office or Registrar Attended
Can you tell us the declared ages on this marriage,occupation(s) and what names witness?
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What we really need is the 1921 census (if it is ever released) ::)
2nd Jan 2022......with any amount of luck !
Not long now then - I can remember waiting patiently for the 1901 ::)
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David's mother Dina(h) died in Canongate, Edinburgh in 1897 age 40. Other name given on Scotlandspeople index is Baritz. In Mar quarter 1898 there is a possible marriage in Newcastle between a Benjamin Shulman and a Minnie Solomon. An 1898 marriage would tie in with the number of year's Benjamin and Minnie claim to be married in 1911.
In 1891 census Benjamin has a Rachael Barrats living with him. She is described as Benjamin's mother but I think she must have been his mother-in-law.
Isobel
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That's a strange second name. Barrett .
Eva barrett shulman. Why would anyone call there daughter barrett?
Barrett = anglicised Baritz surname :-\ = Benjamin Shulman's second wife.
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1911 census was taken 2 April 1911 in both England & Scotland.
If she was born February 1911 she must be somewhere. I did wonder if the age 5 was mistranscribed but it does not specify that it is anything other than years but could be an enumerator error :-\
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From the Aberdeen Press & Journal 10th Nov 1906
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Well found Isobel, at least that proves that the David Schulman born in Scotland c1882 was indeed an auctioneeer and is almost certainly the right chap.
Sounds like he got a girl pregnant,so he was indeed Eveline's dad,but maybe didn't marry her mum.
Hence her not being quite sure what her maiden name was,and the Scottish link of her moving back there,and dying there,is explained too.
Carol
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Evelines marriage gives father as David Joseph Schulman as does her death but that is not proof that he is her actual father, just what she has been brought up to believe :-\ The only documents that would have carried Evelines mothers name would be her birth certificate and Scottish death. In the case of the death certificate it would probably only be reliant on the informant knowing the information :-\
The marriage of David Joseph Schulman to Annie O'Brien in Scotland also confirmed that he was an Auctioneer and that his father was Benjamin
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Hi
On my grandparents marriage certificate.
It says : Alfred evan Jones age 19. Bachelor. And eveline shulman age 24.spinster. .
They got married 23rd of December 1933. In Manchester. In the presence of T crossfield and E Hoose.
My grandad. Alfred Evan Jones. Father's name and surname john jones. (Deceased) vanman
My gran eveline shulman. Her father's name and surname. David Joseph shulman ( deceased ) auctioner.
I don't know if I was ok to put this on? I hope it was?
Thank you all for your help.
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Hi isobelw
Is there any chance the news paper clipping can be done so it can be read. I have downloaded it. But it's coming can't open it.
Thank you
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Sorry everyone.
I forgot to mention what my grandparents ocupation was . I wasn't sure if you wanted my grandparents ocupation or there parents ocupation.
My grans ocupation. Was photographer.
My grandads ocupation was laundry vanman. Which my mum did tell me my grandad did drive a van.
Thank you again for all your help.
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Hi isobelw
Is there any chance the news paper clipping can be done so it can be read. I have downloaded it. But it's coming can't open it.
Thank you
Click on the IMG_2139 bit under the clipping (in blue) and save the file,then you should be able to open it.
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Hi isobelw
Is there any chance the news paper clipping can be done so it can be read. I have downloaded it. But it's coming can't open it.
Thank you
Sorry - not sure why you can't see it. It is a screenshot and should be visible as part of my post. I assume others have been able to view it?
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I could see the clipping. I didn't have to faff at all, it was just there...
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I note from the marriage certificate that Eveline was five years older than her husband. I wonder if she was actually even older than she claimed and knocked a few years off her age when she married.
Isobel
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I saved it then read it as it was too wide to read easily on my small screen :)
I note from the marriage certificate that Eveline was five years older than her husband. I wonder if she was actually even older than she claimed and knocked a few years off her age when she married.
Isobel
It would not surprise me if her age was adjusted on marriage and afterwards ???
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Very interesting finds. ;)
Is there an Aberdeen birth for Eva/Evelyn?
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Hi isobelw.
It's ok I can see it. Thank you.
It was a shock when I saw it. A photo to a face at least I can imagine what my great grandad looked like.
They say the sons look like there fathers.
Thank you again
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5 weeks would be about the right age, if there was an enumerator error. And the nephew above was also 5. It does say Eva was at school though.
What happened to Annie O'Brien/Shulman/Johnson?
Baptism which could match the details Rosie gave from marriage
India Births and Baptisms
Anne O'Brien
bap 27 Jan 1878, Lucknow, Bengal, India
born 19 Jan 1878
father Thomas
mother Margaret
Was born Lucknow on census.
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I think the consensus is that Eveline conceivably fibbed about her age at marriage and she could well be the Aberdeen-born 5 y old in the 1911 census back at post 33-ish.
If she started fibbing only on marriage, she would have been old enough to vote in 1928? (Ie 21y) Any sign on electoral rolls? (Looks like an in person search)
http://www.manchester.gov.uk/directory_record/212379/electoral_registers/category/1367/view_all_collections
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Aberdeen St Nicholas
Dav Jos Schulman Head 29 Reporter (Newspaper), Worker, born Manchester England
Annie Schulman Wife 33 Palmiste?, Own Account, born Lucknow India
Fred O'Brien Nephew 5 School, born Glasgow
Eva Barrett Schulman Adoptd Daur 5, born Aberdeen Aberdeen
This Eva is indicated as not being David SCHULMAN's biological daughter.
Debra :D
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Aberdeen St Nicholas
Dav Jos Schulman Head 29 Reporter (Newspaper), Worker, born Manchester England
Annie Schulman Wife 33 Palmiste?, Own Account, born Lucknow India
Fred O'Brien Nephew 5 School, born Glasgow
Eva Barrett Schulman Adoptd Daur 5, born Aberdeen Aberdeen
Fortune tellers often appear in news items as being fraudulent and there is an article about Annie - can anyone see the full article?
6 April 1921 - Lancashire Evening Post - Preston, Lancashire,
"DIPPING INTO THE FUTURE. WHAT A FORTUNE-TELLER TOLD CONSTABLE’S WlFE.
At the Manchester County Police Court, yesterday, Annie Shulman (41). of 83, Chorlton road, Brooks’s Bar, Manchester, was charged with pretending to tell fortunes, Mrs. Baiiey, wife of....."
Debra :D
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WOW. I go and sleep and wake up to find 5 more pages, this will take some time to digest but as far as I can see we are no nearer finding Eveline's birth. :)
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Dundee you are assuming David Jos Schulman gave the information for the census.
If his wife was the informant, then adopted daughter would be the answer she would give.
I've been door to door as a census taker when the paperwork was not returned or was incomplete.
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The column heading is 'Relation to head of family'. The identity of the informant is irrelevant and if they followed the instructions then Eva was David's adopted daughter.
Debra :D
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"Scotland Census, 1891"
Annie Obrien.
Birth Year 1878. age 13.
Tradeston.
Lanarkshire.
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Article - Fortune Teller :)
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Hi isobelw.
It's ok I can see it. Thank you.
It was a shock when I saw it. A photo to a face at least I can imagine what my great grandad looked like.
They say the sons look like there fathers.
Thank you again
I can't see any photo attached to the bicycle accident report. Is it just me :-\
Carol
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How interesting that she is using the name 'Barrett'. Also this must have occurred very close to the death of her husband David (whose death is recorded in March quarter of 1921).
Isobel
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Hi isobelw.
It's ok I can see it. Thank you.
It was a shock when I saw it. A photo to a face at least I can imagine what my great grandad looked like.
They say the sons look like there fathers.
Thank you again
I can't see any photo attached to the bicycle accident report. Is it just me :-\
Carol
No - there is no photo. I was confused as well
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Article - Fortune Teller :)
Interesting, did Annie marry a Barrett before David?
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Article - Fortune Teller :)
Interesting, did Annie marry a Barrett before David?
David's father, Benjamin, married Dinah Baritz - and my assumption is that Barrett is the anglicised form of Baritz :-\
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Article - Fortune Teller :)
Interesting, did Annie marry a Barrett before David?
David's father, Benjamin, married Dinah Baritz - and my assumption is that Barrett is the anglicised form of Baritz :-\
On David's marriage to Annie his mother's maiden name is given as Barrett ( see reply 40).
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Could this also be Annie O'Brien? Appeared in Aberdeen Journal in March 1910.
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Could very well be - 1911 has David and Annie living in Aberdeen.
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Hi isobelw.
It's ok I can see it. Thank you.
It was a shock when I saw it. A photo to a face at least I can imagine what my great grandad looked like.
They say the sons look like there fathers.
Thank you again
I can't see any photo attached to the bicycle accident report. Is it just me :-\
Carol
No - there is no photo. I was confused as well
Thanks Isobel :)
Dorothy, evidently there isn't a photo of your great-granddad in the newspaper report. Where exactly did you see it?
Carol
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Hi isobelw.
It's ok I can see it. Thank you.
It was a shock when I saw it. A photo to a face at least I can imagine what my great grandad looked like.
They say the sons look like there fathers.
Thank you again
I can't see any photo attached to the bicycle accident report. Is it just me :-\
Carol
No - there is no photo. I was confused as well
Thanks Isobel :)
Dorothy, evidently there isn't a photo of your great-granddad in the newspaper report. Where exactly did you see it?
Carol
I think she has perhaps got confused with my Avatar.
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Sorry folks, been so long on this thread finding it hard to keep up. :-[
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Sorry folks, been so long on this thread finding it hard to keep up. :-[
As ever, I am enjoying the story and it is gathering pace.
The articles re Annie are very interesting.
Has anything been found re the surname Hill or a birth for Eva who may be Evelyn?
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Sorry folks, been so long on this thread finding it hard to keep up. :-[
As ever, I am enjoying the story and it is gathering pace.
The articles re Annie are very interesting.
Has anything been found re the surname Hill or a birth for Eva who may be Evelyn?
The problem with finding Eva/Eveline's birth under whatever surname is that we don't really know her true date/year of birth ::)
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I'm wondering if the Hill name comes into the story later (i.e. after David Schulman died did Annie marry or live with a Mr. Hill)?
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Not sure if this partial extract has been found yet?
Aberdeen Press and Journal, 10 Sept.1906: ACCIDENTS IN ABERDEEN. Shortly after eight o'clock yesterday morning, a cycle accident occurred at the foot of Road, near the Links. Jacob Goodman (21), hawker, 157 West North Street, was cycling along Urquhart Road, with David (23), auctioneer, 10 Middle Arthur Place, Edinburgh, standing on the step of the bicycle. When they were turning the corner the foot of Urquhart...
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Yes it has aghadowey-reply #62.
That article added credence to the auctioneer story re David.
Rosie I know there is difficulty with the surname and birth - Eveline could be Annie’s before marriage, if birth is as stated; she could be David’s from another relationship or she could be the child of someone completely separate.
This could also apply to her name.
However, I was just thinking she may have been registered as Eva/Eveline or Evelyn and someone may have tried to look for her.
My expectations are very high. :)
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aghadowey - yes, we've posted the report of the accident. And Annie married Bertram Johnson in 1921, just after David Joseph died.
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Yes it has aghadowey-reply #62.
That article added credence to the auctioneer story re David.
Rosie I know there is difficulty with the surname and birth - Eveline could be Annie’s before marriage, if birth is as stated; she could be David’s from another relationship or she could be the child of someone completely separate.
This could also apply to her name.
However, I was just thinking she may have been registered as Eva/Eveline or Evelyn and someone may have tried to look for her.
My expectations are very high. :)
There are no obvious births in Aberdeen under any of the known names. Both Eva and Barrett appear to be Shulman family names so my guess is that this child was completely renamed after birth.
Re the name Eva - there was an Eva Shulman born in Canongate Edinburgh in 1897 ( the year David's mother died in Canongate) who died in Newington in 1898. I haven't checked this, but suspect she might have been a younger sister of David and that this is where the name Eva came from. As already stated, Barrett was the anglicised form of the maiden name of David's mother.
Isobel
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Thanks Isobel.
I have read and understand the surnames, I was just hoping that there may have been an O'Brien or Hill birth.
I then realised that I can search SP without credits so have done so and sadly cannot yet find a link.
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I'm wondering who Eva Barrett 5 year old "adopted" daughter of David and Annie (1911 Census) is?
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I'm wondering who Eva Barrett 5 year old "adopted" daughter of David and Annie (1911 Census) is?
I think we may be wondering if she is in fact Eveline who has not been constant with her age :-\ Supposedly born 1911.
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Sounds more than plausible. :)
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Marriage in Scotland
1908 St Machar
David Joseph Schulman + Annie O'Brien
There's a marriage straight after that death of David in March qtr 1921
June 1921 Chorlton 8c 1712
Johnson, Bertram
Shulman, Annie
Lancashire BMD says Register Office or Registrar Attended
Also gives bride as Annie O'Brien
Bertram remarried as a widow on 24 Dec 1938 at Ashton under Lyne.
His marriage to Annie SHULMAN nee O'BRIEN on 16 April 1921 at the Register Office, Chorlton, shows her as a widow aged 38 and father as Thomas O'BRIEN, Commissionaire, which matches the marriage to David. Her address is 83 Chorlton Road, Hulme, and the witnesses were William Albert and Winifred Maud SAUNDERS. Certificates have been uploaded to an Ancestry family tree.
Debra :D
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Do you think this might be her again? Note the name Barrett. This was July 1932.
Isobel
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Looks more than likely, Isobel :)
Have been doing a bit more digging and found living relatives of David Joseph Shulman :D
Also lots more tidbits which might bring up more questions :(
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Looks like her Isobel.
I can’t find the tree Dundee, does it give any hint re Evelyn?
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I can’t find the tree Dundee, does it give any hint re Evelyn?
Just search for Bertram JOHNSON with spouse Phyllis MILES. They appear to be related to the second marriage of Bertram.
Debra :D
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Well, where to start? How about with Annie O'Brien/Shulman/Barratt/Johnson, etc. Certainly a busy woman.
Advertisements in Aberdeen Press & Journal from March 1908 until Sept.1912 call her Madame Zena (perhaps a form of Rosina?) Barratt telling fortunes, reading a crystal ball, etc. Dates fit with David Shulman, wife Annie, nephew Fred O'Brien* and 'adopted daughter Eveline Shulman' living in Aberdeen at time of 1911 census. (wonder if 'nephew' is actually Annie's illegitimate child). In May 1912 she has 'returned from Edinburgh.' Then in Feb.1913 a 'first visit to Dundee' (sort of working holiday?).
Next trace, so far, is in 1921 in England where (in a very short space of time it would seem) David Shulman dies (registered Jan./Mar. quarter), Annie appears in court (newspaper 6 Apr.) and Annie marries (16 Apr.) Bertram Johnson.
So, why did Annie stop spate of advertising in Aberdeen paper. Was she in some sort of trouble with the law?
* possibly Frederick O'Brien birth registered 1905 Tradeston district
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My grans birth is 26th of February 1911.
But what I did is this and perhaps I might have done the sums wrong.
My mum always told us our grandparents dob's. My gran eveline. Was born 26/02/11.
But if I took away the age she was married ( the year she got married to my grandad Alfred evan Jones - 1933 )
I came up with the year was 1909. Which I thought might be wrong year of her birth.
In 1933 my gran was 24 years old and my grandad was 19. I took his age off also and I got he was born in 1914.
Which is all very confusing. Because my mum said her dad was born 1910 and her mum was born 1911.
My gran passed away 1998 age 87. She passed away on the 3rd of April in Stirling Scotland.. in the royal infirmary hospital Stirling. At 21.30.
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I don't know if this is allowed or if it is my gran.
I just hope I've found something. And the group can see it.
Thank you
copyright images removed by moderator
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What an amazing amount of research has occurred in the 24 hours or so that I was away! Trying to absorb it all now to see if I can add anything ...
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According to the tree for Eveline Hill - she was born in Stockton on 7 December 1907, never married and died in Yorkshire at the age of 81. However, 1939 says that she married in 1945 :-\ :-\
Added: death entry confirms the 1939 information - plus all registrations are in the name of Evelyn, rather than Eveline. 1911 census entry is the only one to show as Eveline.
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"I don't know if this is allowed or if it is my gran.
I just hope I've found something. And the group can see it"
That looks spot on Dorothy, well done.
Question, Did your gran ever go on holiday abroad? If so she would of had a passport which needs a birth cert.
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What an amazing amount of info has been found for you Dorothy.
Stuff you would never have found for yourself.
It always surprises me how all of us Rootschatters approach a query from a different angle and all find different bits of info.
Carol
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dorothyl, what is it that you think you have found?
Is it the 1905 Whitechapel births?
SHULMAN, EVE JACOBS 1905 J Quarter in WHITECHAPEL Volume 01C Page 271
SHULMAN, EVELYN LEVY 1905 S Quarter in WHITECHAPEL Volume 01C Page 234
They both have corresponding entries in 1911, so I'd discount them.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWPM-XHN (Evie, dau of Emanuel and Jane)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWGB-6XN (Eve, dau of Macks & Yiobin)
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I'm not quite sure what you think you've found - aren't all of those hints rather than facts? They need checking carefully to see if they are your Evelyn.
You have been given a lot of very interesting information on this thread, probably a lot to take in. I would suggest that you print it out so that you can go through it and highlight all the relevant details.
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Annie's age was 4 years out on her death registration.
June 1937 Hyde 8a 118
Johnson, Annie
age 55
She would have been 59.
Probate Calendar
Annie Johnson of 9 Higher Henry-street Hyde Cheshire (wife of Bertram Johnson)
died 1 April 1937
Administration Manchester 19 May to the said Bertram Johnson bolier fireman.
Effects £858 15s. 9d.
That address is the same as on Bertram's death certificate (which is on the tree found by Dundee)
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I know it doesn't really help to find Eveline's birth, but the birth registration for David Schulman (which hasn't been mentioned on this thread yet) appears to be in Prestwich (8d/395): David SHOOLMAN, mother's maiden name BARAITZ.
As another theory, I wonder if Eva Barrett SCHULMAN is the illegitimate daughter of one of David's sisters - maybe Dora or Rachel?
Modified to add: Sorry, forgot to put David 's birth registered March qtr 1883.
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Great find maddys52. I failed miserably trying to find David and Samuel, whose place of birth is recorded as Manchester in 1891. Looks like Samuel was born Harris Shoolman in Prestwich in 1886. Mmn is Barrow ( another version of Baraitz!).
I think Dora was actually registered as Rebecca Shuleman in 1890 in St George's, Edinburgh.
It is possible that Eva was her daughter or of another of Davids' sisters, but there is no obviously matching birth recorded under the name Shulman in Scotland. 1911 census says Eva was born in Aberdeen.
Sadly, it may be impossible to ever identify who Eva Barrett Shulman was or confirm that she is definitely one and the same with Eveline. Eveline may later have used the surname Hill because she knew that was her true birth name. I am more inclined to think that she just didn't want to put a German - sounding name on the birth certificate ( given that this was very shortly before the start of WW2).
Isobel
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I've spent a lot of time searching for information and clues (as have several others here) and it's a bit disappointing that Dorothy doesn't seem interested in finding living relatives (see reply #108). I know that another Rootschatter had previous found other relatives for her but not sure if any contact was attempted. It's possible, of course, that by now there's no one left alive who known the whole, or even part of, the origins of Eveline but DNA testing might be useful in confirming or ruling out any links.
It seems as though David Shulman had only 2 sisters who could have been Eveline's mother. One thing that hasn't been questioned so far is who actually raised Eveline? If she's the adopted child in 1911 census (as she probably was) then did she stay with Annie after David died? Religion hasn't really been mentioned on this thread but as the Shulmans were Polish Jews and Annie O'Brien was likely Irish Catholic then the differences in religion and culture could have caused problems.
Here's a very brief outline of Shulman family so far (more details to follow after groceries unpacked, hovering done, etc.)-
Benjamin Shulman (c1862 Poland/Russia-1931 Manchester No.) m. Dina(h) Barrett/Baritz (c1857-1897 Canongate); m.(1898 Newcastle) Minnie Solomon (c1872 Poland/Russia-1916 Prestwich, Manchester)
1. David Shulman (1883-1921 Eng.) m.(14 Dec.1908 St. Machar, Scot.) Annie O’Brien. She m.(16 Apr.1921 Chorlton) Bertram Johnson (1892-1964)- he m.(24 Dec.1938 at Ashton under Lyme) Phyllis Miles.
2. Samuel/Harris Shulman (1886-1923 Liverpool)
3. Hannah Shulman (1888 Cheetham-1891 St. George)
4. Dora Shulman (1890 St. George/Edinburgh-aft.1911) registered as Rebecca Shuleman
5. Rachel Shulman (1892 St. George/Edinburgh-aft.1911) registered as Shuleman
6. Solomon Barnett/Bernard Shulman (15 Sept.1894 St. George/Edinburgh-11 Nov.1950 New Rochelle, Westchester, N.Y.) m.(1922 Liverpool- as Barnett S. Shuleman) Sarah E. Sondak/Simon
7. Eva Shulman (1897 Canongate-1898 Newington)
8. Esther Shulman (c1899 Edinburgh-aft.1911)
9. Sarah Shulman (1900 Edinburgh-aft.1911)
10. Abraham Arthur Shulman (1902 Cheetham) m.(1934 Salford, Manchester) Rosa Michalovitz Raffles
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Groceries unpacked (and probably long consumed), hovering done and redone several times... and still no response from OP which is disappointing after we've worked so hard to sort out this family :-\
Had found lots more details (aside from living relative to contact) but won't bother to post any more of it here.
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According to her profile, the OP was active on RC on the 2nd January. What a pity she hasn’t acknowledged the hard work that people have put in on this thread.
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Trying to reply to your PM, Ray but still getting this message-
User '[Ray]' has blocked your personal message.
Please check your settings in case a gremlin has gotten into your account ;)
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Hiya
You weren't appearing on my ignore list, so I added you ;D
THEN knocked you off
THEN buddied you
I really don't know what's agoinon?
Try again?
R
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My gran eveline. Was born eveline shulman. She was born 26th of February 1910 which I recently found out. I thought it was 1911.and my mum must have been told the same thing. My gran eveline was born in Aberdeen. And at some point in her life she moved to England. Where she met my grandad some years later and married him.on the 23rd of December 1933. And become patients to my mum in 1937.
My gran then married again in 1946 after my grandad passed away my grandad was called Alfred evan Jones.
My gran married Mr James owens in I think the December. I'm not sure what month. Only it was a few months after my grandad passed away.
Then my gran moved back to Scotland after the late 1950s I think 1958 not sure.
She remained in Scotland until she passed away in 1998 on the 3rd of April. She was a widow then.
I hope it helps with the confusion. I really do get confused myself with my gran.
From what I have found out. From somewhere. My gran eveline was adopted. It says her father's name is David Joseph shulman. But I really can't seem to figure out why would my gran put on my mum's birth certificate. Eveline Jones formally hill as her maiden name. Or where it says, name and surname and maiden surname of mother.
So I really don't know if my gran was actually called eveline hill or eveline shulman. Even though her father's name is on her death certificate.
It's really confusing. This is why I'm trying to find out about Annie O'Brien. Did she pass away in Scotland. Or England because of David passed away in England. And why was my gran adopted. Which I was told. But I never knew about.
Thank you again for your help.
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Wasnt the death of annie o brien covered at reply 120?
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Lots and lots already covered on this thread but I've just posted on the new one started today-
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=787416
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Hi Everyone.
Iam very sorry for not replying before now. as it takes me some time to go on my searches and i go back on other things related to my family.
it isnt that im ignoring anyone im not. you have all been amazing you have helped me so much things
in finding things i wouldnt have known where to start. and for that i wpuld like to say a huge thank you. i do get back to anyone who sends me messages.
i noticed on of the posts i didnt add my grans religon. thats because i dont know it. form what i can gather my mum was brought up as a non catholic. i think its called prodistant. as for my dad his family are catholic. so when my parents got married they couldnt get married untill my mum changed her religion. as catholics dont / cant marrie prodistents. so i think my gran wasnt catholic.
she didnt go to church as far as i know just like my great gran frances jones.
the only person who is living on my grans family is her daughter my auntie. she is my mums half sister. who im trying to find as she might hold the key to her mums past.
ive tried scotland missing people. but its possible she might have moved back to where she was born which is manchester. but i have no idea her address.
if this helps anyone. my aunties birth name is Removed. even tho my mum thought it was owens. my auntie was born 21st december 1944 in manchester. she did move to scotland many years after with her mum eveline. i know she got married around 1960s to mr stevens i think hes name is. im not sure if she has any children or if she is still in scotland. knowing my auntie its possibel she might have moved to england but never really know with the size of my family :) :)
but i really want to say i am truly sorry for not answering any of my replies. im not ignoring anyone im also using other means of trying to find my auntie. which im finding it difficult to do.
i hope ive answerd everyones questions if not to ask again and if i can and know the answers i will gladly answer. im only go by what i remember from my teenage years and from what my mum told me about from the last 4 years untill she passed away last march. so im just trying to remember what she told me. i have to jogg my memeorie with some things.
thank you all very much i really do mean it.
thank you again everyone.
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Hi Dorothy
You have JVA's Birth cert (also recorded as another name).
We cannot talk on Rootschat about people who are/could be living (Rootschat Rules I'm afraid)
Kevin and I have just found someone who could very well be JV's daughter
Currently double-checking.
JV divorced then re-married, as you know.
Ray
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I would like to say a big thank you to you all for all the help you gave me.
And continue to do so.
I must apologise to anyone I haven't replied back to. I didn't know how to do it. But now I do.
I wouldn't have got this far without you all.
Thank you all so very much.
I really appreciate it. And I'm truly sorry.
Thank you again for your help and your time.
Kind regards
Dorothy
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This query has just resurfaced on another board. As a result I have just had a look at the 1921 English census. This shows Eveline as Evelyn Johnson living in Stretford, Manchester with mother Annie (Annie married Bertram Johnson on 21 April 1921, shortly after the death of David Schulman) The 1921 Census shows Evelyn as born 1905 in Scotland which appears to confirm what many of us thought - that she was the five year old Eva Barrett Schulman listed as a stepdaughter of David and Annie in the 1911 Scottish census and was therefore born much earlier than the OP thought. Just thought others who worked on this might be interested.
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Fascinating story .
Dorothy have you considered doing a DNA test it would show if David Shulman was indeed Evelyn's birth father as you would have inherited some Jewish ethnicity .
He was considered her legal father anyway .
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Hello again.
I want to say a big thank you to everyone who has continued to help me with my gran..
Ive found out something I never thought I would find. But had an idea.
I couldn't help but think what if my gran wasn't born 1911 but earlier. Because of her age on my grandad and her married certificate. If my gran was born before 1911 (1905/09) she would have been around 24 years old in 1933.
My Grandads birth year is correct. And his age in 1933.
Which brought me to this.
What if my gran was married before she married my grandad. Or what if her birth name is Hill.
Because of her name on my mums birth certificate. Eveline Jones formerly Hill. On both of her marriage certificates she's down as spinster. Even though she was married before her 2nd marriage. She would have been a widow when she remarried.in 1946. As both of my grandparents were still married but living in separate homes.
So I would like to say a huge thank you to all of you.
For all your help and support and your hard work to help me.
I honestly truly appreciate it.
Your all are amazing people.
Thank you so much.
I would have liked to have a dna test done. But it's really expensive for me. It would take me quite a few years to collect the money up..
But its really great to know David is my great grandfather..
Please could I just add my thoughts.
It's something that I can't help but think about. It could be possible I suppose.
What if David is my grans birth father.
But my grans birth mother was born of the surname of Hill.
And for some reason my grans birth mother couldn't look after her but David could and met Annie got married to give my gran a mum. But David being the biological father of my gran. And called her eve /Eva after his baby sister.
Could this be possible?
It's just something that I can't seem to get out of my thoughts.
Well thank you you all again for what you did for me. I really appreciate your help and support.
Kind regards
Dorothy
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Both are possible .my own grandmother was adopted and on her marriage certificate has her adopted surname formerly birth surname.
I do hope you will be able to afford DNA at some point . My great grandmother had a Jewish birth father and I have links to people with his family name . I checked surname links and some of the matches also have SCHULMAN on their trees ..coming from Roumania or Russia initially but I suppose it is a common surname meaning school man
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My grans adopted fathers parents are Russian Jews. They immergrated to England in the 1880s.
They had 2 children during the time in England. David Joseph Shulman and another sibling. David I think was the eldest. The family moved to Scotland when I think David was 8 years old. I'm not sure of the age. But I've always thought there name was spelt Schulman. My auntie spells is Shulman.
When I began my research I was told by one of my brothers that my gran is part German. Because of the name Shulman. I found out a few years ago that my gran was born in Aberdeen. My auntie is the one who told me that her mum was adopted. By David Joseph Shulman and his wife Annie.
I've been trying everything to find out about my gran.
I really wish I could find out just so that I can get a copy of her birth certificate.
What i do know is that she is buried in a unmarked grave. I thought it was sad no one went to her funeral.
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I believe Annie O’Brien may have been married before she married David Schulman in Glasgow in 1908. There is a marriage in 1898 in Glasgow between a John Henry O’Pray and an Annie O’ Brien. The 1901 census indicates that Annie O’Pray was born around 1878 in the East Indies. This is an exact match for Annie O’Brien/Shulman as regards year and place of birth. Can’t find the family in 1911. John Henry and Annie had two children by 1901 and there are other likely births in the years following.
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Very interesting! Annie says that she is a spinster when she marries David in 1908, BUT!!!! Also interesting that there are children from the marriage to John Henry as I can find no evidence that Annie had any children with either David or Bertram Johnson.
I take that you haven't seen the marriage entry in 1898?
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I just had a look at the 1898 marriage and it is her. Parents Thomas O’Brien, Commissionaire and Margaret O’Brien m/s Kane. Same details as on the Shulman marriage in 1908.
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Yes - e.mail on its way!
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. Can’t find the family in 1911.
Over the multiple threads on this lass, 1911 had previously been found. Probably more than once!
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=857385.msg7260257#msg7260257
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I was talking about the O’Pray family in 1911. I know we have found the Shulman family. Interestingly John Hendry O’Pray didn’t die till 1933!
ADD I have found John Henry on his own in Gorbals in 1911. It looks as if there were four children who all died as infants.
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Interesting - I did find the 4 deaths for children - it looks like they separated for different lives! Sad!
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Hello again.
I've just seen a reply on here about found four children who passed away I think they were Annie's children from her previous marriage. Before she married David Joseph Shulman.
Does anyone have any details of them please?
Thank you again
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Hello again.
Please forgive me for putting this on the reply part. I couldn't find the new topic. I was just wondering if at all possible could anyone please help me with trying to find out anything on David Joseph Shulmans parents. I understand that they are Russian Jews. David’s father was Benjamin and his mother was dinah. (David’s parents that is)
I don't know much else about them. Only they came to the uk in I think was 1800s. For some reason maybe for a new start.
It would really be interesting to know more about them.
If anyone can help me with anything
I really would appreciate it.
Thank you all again so much.
Dorothy
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I think that you received information on Benjamin and Dinah back in 2019 - not much, but a little:
Benjamin born in Poland (Russia) in about 1862 - parents not known. Benjamin died in Manchester - 30 May 1931.
Married in Poland - 15 January 1882
Wife - Dinah Baritz - born about 1859 in Poland - father said to be David and mother said to be Rachel Rosenfeld. Dinah died in Edinburgh 16 July 1897.
Benjamin and Dinah must have left Poland very soon after marriage as David Schulman was born in Manchester on 18 November 1882.
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Hello again.
I've just seen a reply on here about found four children who passed away I think they were Annie's children from her previous marriage. Before she married David Joseph Shulman.
Does anyone have any details of them please?
Thank you again
You've also received information on these children and the 1897 marriage between Annie and John Hendry O'Pray.
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Thank you so much for your help with this. I remember seeing something about David’s father and mother.
I wasn't quite sure tho.
Thank you all again.