RootsChat.Com
Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Free Photo Restoration & Date Old Photographs => Topic started by: cnwcywig on Saturday 16 December 17 08:33 GMT (UK)
-
Is anyone here an expert in identifying a particular style of top hat, and suggesting a likely date?
Does the period of the hat match the style of the other clothes or furniture? Can you tell anything about the wearer from the style of his hat?
All I can get from some basic searches is that it most closely resembles the Oxford or Collegian hat, but has a pronounced widening bell shape rather than stove-pipe, with a very thin brim and restrained curve, ie unlike a Dandy.
Many thanks
-
Not sure of this one....leaning towards 1880s, so bringing it back up the board for Jim to take a look. Could you post a scan of the whole photo including the back if you have as it can help with dating.
Carol
-
Not sure, but I think it looks like an image from a book rather than a photograph Carol.
I would expect the hat to be placed with the brim on the table rather than upside down as it is. I wonder if that is significant? :) I'm probably wrong about that as it might wobble if placed on it's brim.
He's obviously a well to do gent.
It looks like the Empire or Victorian to me:
http://www.silktophats.eu/historytophat.html
which probably fits with him looking like a chap from the Victorian era. :)
I can't see his collar arrangement clearly but it makes me think 'clergyman'.
-
Makes me think of Charles Dickens characters, so I am thinking 1800s.
Have one of my GG-Grandfather with his top hat - just like this i.e. Upturned but not quite as tapered. Taken quite early - '50- 60s.
Agree with you Ruskie . . . . Does look like book illustration.
Wiggy
-
An old (Australian) photo-dating book I recently borrowed from the library has round toes on men’s boots commencing 1876 (replacing square toes) and then pointed toes starting in about 1885. It’s not easy to see, but I think he has round toes rather than square or pointed. And doesn’t he seem to be showing them off! And don’t they look shiny and new!
So, all things considered - and with all fingers crossed - I’m going for 1880 give or take a couple of years.
Peter
-
Thank you - very interesting.
I deliberately didn't reveal all I know, as I wanted to discover if anything could be deduced from the hat alone, uninfluenced by extraneous information.
I found the picture online, with no source attributed.
The subject was my great great grandfather, a clergyman who lived from 1807-1879. I have no information about his character at all, so I wondered if something as personal as a hat might just possibly say something about the wearer.
It struck me that the hat was quite tall, perhaps pointing to early rather then later Victorian?
Also that it has a pronounced widening at the top, not straight-sided like a stovepipe or more modern shallower hat.
The brim has very little turn-up, unlike the Empire suggested, and what strikes me as quite a modest sweep front to back.
My guess would have been the choice of a would-be dandy, restrained as befitting a clergyman, but with a touch of man-about-town showing through? On the other hand, he is as pointed out mistreating his hat. This advice from the website of Oliver Browwn, hatters, of Chelsea:
"When wearing an antique top hat, special care should always be taken when setting it down on a flat surface. Always set the hat down upright, with the brim of the hat on the table. This maintains the condition of the crown, which is vulnerable to damage, and once worn can never be repaired, only blackened to minimise the effect of the damage."
Apart from basic stuff like family and catalogue of his livings, the only interesting thing I know about him is that as a young man he accidentally took his brother's eye out with a gun!
As with all family history, it's so frustrating that relatives didn't ask more questions of older members when they were alive. His daughter lived to 95 and my father knew her, his grandmother, well, so he could have asked her about her family and upbringing.
-
All very typically 1870's. Without seeing all of it I couldn't say which part of the decade.
-
That seems to settle it - thank you very much indeed.
So it was in the last decade of his life. Not an outdated hat then from his younger days, but reasonably in fashion?
There's no more to see - that's the whole photograph.
-
Difficult to know for sure, but I would expect to learn more about his character from his occupation of Clergyman, rather than his hat. :-\
Might the hat be a photographer's prop anyway, rather than his own?
-
Unusual to have his eyes closed, looking at a book.
-
Unusual to have his eyes closed, looking at a book.
He does look very sleepy doesn't he? :)
I briefly wondered if it might be a PM photo but the hands, crossed legs and feet look very natural. There may be an extra chair leg though? :-\
Perhaps the photo was taken in 1879.
-
This photo shows locals in their Sunday best dated before 1862, can't be much before that date for obvious reasons and I know the cottage in the background was demolished in 1862. The men are probably fishermen so a different 'class' but may be of interest
-
Only middle & upper classes wore toppers.
-
Happy to be corrected :) My 'fishermen' comment was on the description of the photo on the site where I found the image.
-
He does look very sleepy doesn't he? :)
I briefly wondered if it might be a PM photo but the hands, crossed legs and feet look very natural. There may be an extra chair leg though? :-\
Ruskie, I thought it could be a PM photo too which is why I commented. He does look a bit slumped and it's unusual to have his eyes closed. I hadn't noticed the extra leg/stand. :-\ :-\
If it is a PM photo it is very well arranged, but I have seen something similar before.
Pat
-
Is anyone here an expert in identifying a particular style of top hat, and suggesting a likely date?
Does the period of the hat match the style of the other clothes or furniture? Can you tell anything about the wearer from the style of his hat?
All I can get from some basic searches is that it most closely resembles the Oxford or Collegian hat, but has a pronounced widening bell shape rather than stove-pipe, with a very thin brim and restrained curve, ie unlike a Dandy.
Many thanks
I would suggest it is a PM photo. The background to me looks like a movable divider or background rather than a 3D wall.
Cheers
Guy
-
I would suggest a PM photo too. There seem to be 2 additional legs to the chair, the second just behind the left knee. But actually can't see the RH back leg of actual chair - must be behind the coat tail.
Might the top hat standing on its crown be a subtle 'hint' about this, the meaning of which has got lost in time?
-
By PM do you mean deceased? How would his arms be in that position holding up a book.
I hadn't thought he had his eyes closed just cast downwards looking at the book but am happy to be educated on these photos.
-
I doubt that it is a PM photo as his arms are not supported and the pose would be difficult to achieve. I think he may be looking down at the book giving the appearance that his eyes are closed. There does appear to be a posing stand with a round base as I believe he is sitting on a stool.
Carol
-
Only middle & upper classes wore toppers.
At the risk of seeming petty I have found many references to those other than middle and upper classes wearing top hats. For example
"The histories of several types of hats introduced in England in the early and mid-nineteenth century and widely adopted in other countries illustrate this principle. The top hat, which appeared in England at the beginning of the nineteenth century, was worn first by the middle and upper classes. During the century, it spread downward, possibly because it was adopted by coachmen in the 1820s and for policemen's uniforms in the same period (de Marly 1986: 123, 98). In 1839, workers in London were wearing them with their Sunday clothes, and a potter from Staffordshire, the subject of a drawing in the same year, was wearing one with a smock frock (86). In the 1840s and 1850s, unskilled laborers and fishermen were photographed wearing these hats (Ginsburg 1988: 148, 152). At mid-century, they were being worn by all social classes (Ewing 1984: 112). Head coverings worn by a group of foremen, who represented the upper stratum of the working class, illustrate the use of hats to express their aspirations for social status (Ginsburg 1988: 124). In an 1861 photograph, most of the men were wearing the newly fashionable lounge jacket, and seven out of ten were wearing top hats. The older men were wearing top hats, in a slightly outdated style, but the younger ones were wearing the latest model. Only one man in the photograph was wearing a peaked cap. By the end of the century, the use of the top hat had reverted to the middle and upper classes."
Taken from here http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/117987.html
-
For those people not familiar with the practice, various devices were used to help living people stay still for the photographer. These would have been sometimes adapted/used for photos of recently deceased people but this was nowhere near as common as some websites would have you believe.
I don’t think this photo is a post mortem one because his coat sleeve is hanging down - that is, he is holding up his own arm - and his overall position looks too natural.
I do think though that at this point he may have not been a well man (that is, he may have been largely bedridden) and a device was assisting him - something like the one in the first image below (the base of which rather resembles his extra “chair leg”, except for the different approach taken to providing a heavy base - third image).
All things considered I think the picture was probably taken in his last year of life.
Peter
-
He's about as dead as I am. Not sure how this conclusion was reached but this is a quite common pose for middle class men.
Even by 1870's standards it would be pretty undignified hauling him out of his death bed & taking him to a photographer before rigor-mortis sets in.
Most pm's are of children usually posed asleep, occasionally with babies in mother's arms.
The practice of doing this was mainly because there was no other photo of the deceased.
With an older person like this chap there were probably other photos of him that could be turned into a memorial photo which was much more common.
-
Well said Jim 8) ...now will you ask Granddad to get into the festive spirit and put his Santa hat
on...pleeease :D :D :D
Carol
-
Grandad went into the shed in July & nobody's seen him since.
-
Well that's Brexit for ya...it's got a lot to answer for :-X ;D ;D
Carol