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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Devon => Topic started by: Rainbow Quartz on Wednesday 20 December 17 20:26 GMT (UK)
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Hello everyone
I have today returned to a 'brick wall' which, as I've just realised, was the subject of my very first post to RootsChat! Here it is:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=629498.0 (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=629498.0)
To summarize, I have Elizabeth Ann Jewell marrying a James Burns on 9 October 1887 in Stoke Damerel. She is 20, he is 24. Her father is Thomas Paul Jewell, his 'father' is given as Mary Burns (see post for reasons for this). I have a certified copy of their marriage certificate and these are definitely my husband's ancestors. I also have a certified copy of the birth certificate of the only child I can find, Stephen Owen Burns, born 25 July 1889, Stoke Damerel, father James Burns, rivetter, mother Elizabeth Ann Burns, nee Jewell. I have death and burial records for Stephen Owen Burns, died 10 January 1892.
After this, I can't find anything about what happened to Elizabeth and James, absolutely nothing! I have tried all kinds of permutations, taking advantage of my world subscription to FindMyPast, but that brick wall is still there!
For those of you kind enough to read this, and to plough through the original post, I am still of the opinion that on the 1891 Census, William S, Elizabeth and Stephen are the right family, and that William S is a mistake, and that Newcastle and Sunderland have been mixed up when giving his place of birth.
Thank you to everyone who contributed to the original post and for your invaluable help in chipping away at the wall.
If anyone can suggest any other avenues I can pursue, or if you have any ideas of what I can do next, I would be very grateful. Thank you! 8)
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BuRNS, UNA VIOLET JEWELL 1888 J Qtr in STOKE DAMEREL Volume 05B Page 329
Baptised durham late 1888
BURNS, STEPHEN OWEN JEWELL 1889 S Qtr in STOKE DAMEREL Volume 05B Page 317
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Wow thanks Pauline, will investigate further! Transcribed as Ute Violet Burns on FindMyPast!! >:(
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I've now found a baptism for Una Violet Burns, 7 October 1888 Sunderland, father Jacobi Burns, mother Elizabeth Joe Burns. ::) Ignoring the transcription errors this makes sense as James Burns was born in Sunderland. Not found anything else yet. I think I'll attempt to move this thread to the Durham board.
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Oh no! I've now found a death for a Violet Burns, Sunderland, 1891 age 4, on FS. And still no sign of James and Elizabeth.
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Violet on 1891 in Sunderland? Annie Carter is nee Burns
William Carter 35
Annie Carter 34
Owen Carter 11
Hannah Carter 9
Catherine Carter 6
Georgina Carter 4
Julia Carter 2
Violet Burns 3 [added - niece]
RG12, 4144, 20, 39
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Wait, I'm a little bit confused. If I've read correctly, you are saying that your husband is a descendant of Stephen but also that Stephen died as a child?
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Thanks Mabel, I think that Annie must be James' sister? It looks like something must have happened to Elizabeth and James for Violet to be with the Carters, but what?
Ayashi, sorry for the confusion, it's all a bit complicated! My husband is a descendant of Elizabeth's brother, Stephen Richard Jewell. I'm just looking for Elizabeth Ann as she is Stephen Richard's only sibling.
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If your census entry is correct, Violet was with the Carters at the same time that your family were wherever they were, so they'd all be alive at the same time. It might not have been that anything happened to them, it might have been that Violet was unwell and got left behind when the family continued onwards, especially if she subsequently died.
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Thanks Ayashi, my mind is getting fuddled with all this! Obviously James (aka William S?) and Elizabeth Ann and Stephen Owen were in Stoke Damerel for the 1891 Census. ???
The trail only goes cold after Stephen Owen's death in 1892.
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Whilst I too cannot find James and Elizabeth together on census after 1891, his army service record states he was still alive in 1930 with regard to pension.
Annette
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Hi so are James and Annie the children of Owen/Mary Burns:-
1861 census
Owen 30
Mary 26
Mary J 9
Ann 7
Juiia 4
James 2
Isabella Hall 54 Aunt
Census ref RG09/3767/21/42
Keyboard86
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It looks very likely keyboard86, names, ages, location all fit. It's strange that James doesn't acknowledge his father on his marriage certificate though?
Annette, interesting to see that James is alive in 1930. So....where has he been hiding I wonder? And where is Elizabeth?
Thanks to everyone who has helped remove a few more bricks from the wall. Unfortunately it's still standing! ???
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Hi again so I know I am looking at the correct Service Record is James b 1862 Sunderland occ Miner?
Keyboard86
EDIT James Burns 1859 Sunderland mmn Hall, James Burns 1862 Sunderland mmn Carroll
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1901 has a Jas Burnes (as transcribed by Ancestry, image is Burns) in a lodging house in Sunderland. Aged 40, married, b Sunderland, occupation riveter, ships. Ref RG13, 4705, 57, 12
Seem to remember Stephen Owen's father was a riveter
There's also a death in Sunderland in 1919 of a James Burns b c1860
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Hi again, yes that 1901 appears correct, shown as James Burns 40 b Sunderland Married on FindMyPast, so is the Army Record for another James? Re the two births of James Burns c 1859 and 1862 above, the 1862 James is aged 8 in 1871 census:-
RG10/5021/67/39 as BURN
Owen Burns to Mary Carrol March qtr 1862 Newcastle T 10b 155
Keyboard86
EDIT The 1861 above family in 1871 census:-
Mary 38 Widow
Anne 17
Julia 15
James 13
Patrick 5
Mary Jane 1
Census ref RG10/4998/76/40
PS Without going through all of your previous link was their not some reference to Glass?
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Looks like by the next census James is in the workhouse - transcribed as Bivans on Anc. and Bevans on FindMyPast, still shown as married.
It's looking as if Elizabeth could have left him and took up with someone else perhaps. Husband James describes himself as 'Married' in 1901/1911 but with no trace of Elizabeth as 'Burns' anywhere.
As stated earlier, James was still alive in 1930 per army record.
Annette
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Hi Annette, ok but the marriage certificate on the other thread suggests possibly no father for James but a deceased Mary? Burns occ Glassmaker or similar.
The 1859/62 births suggest both a Mary but not a Glass anything?
Keyboard86
EDIT Their is a James Burns death 1933 Sunderland 10a 758 aged 72?
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1881 - 44 South Johnston St
Mary Burns 40 - glassmaker
Mary Burns 22
James Burns 20 - glassmaker
Patrick Burns 15 - glassmaker
RG11, 4987, 24, 42
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Mabel, the 1881 fits with the service record, James' next of kin was his mother, Mary Burns, address 44 (New) Johnston Street, (I think that 'New' and 'South' are probably one and the same?), and it also fits with the marriage cert with James' mother being a glassmaker. It looks like James joined up in 1884 and was posted to Raglan Barracks in Devonport, where he met Elizabeth Ann Jewell. In his service records it says that upon medical discharge in 1888 he was returning to Johnston Street, Sunderland, but his mother was deceased by this time, according to the marriage cert. I wonder why he didn't return to Stoke Damerel (Devonport)? And so who is William S Burns living with Elizabeth and Stephen Owen on the 1891 Census?
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1881 - 44 South Johnston St
Mary Burns 40 - glassmaker
Mary Burns 22
James Burns 20 - glassmaker
Patrick Burns 15 - glassmaker
RG11, 4987, 24, 42
:) I had that but for some reason chose to ignore, is that the 1871 family?
Keyboard86
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Patrick - mmn Hall
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It's the Mary 22 on 1881 that I cannot work out?
Keyboard86
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Me neither, but the ages are a bit to pot. It's not Ann - she's married by then.
Apologies - on 1881 Mary snr is not glass blower, that's the person above her. However there are many in the street, so assume she may well have taken up the occupation
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Thanks for everyone's input so far. Mabel, can I please just ask how you know that Patrick's mother's maiden name is Hall, because this could tie the families from the Census with James' service record, and increase the certainty of what happened to James. To summarize, we have Owen Burns and family on the 1861 Census, living at 5 Railway Row, and, living with them, is Isabella Hall, aunt, so she could be a relative of Mary Burns? The family is still at 5 Railway Row in 1971. If the 1881 Census is of the same family, which seems likely, despite the discrepancies in ages, this ties in with James' service record, because we know his mother lives at 44 South Johnston Street, which is where the family are living according to the 1881 census. We also have the links with the name Owen, the fact that James twice says he's a Miner, and the glassmaker link. So, barring a few loose ends, we might have found out about James. The only remaining mystery is Elizabeth Ann!
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Hi again, re birth registration of Patrick Burns, he could/looks to be Patrick Cunningham Burns March qtr 1865 Sunderland v10a page 473 mmn Hall
Julia Burns Dec qtr 1856 Sunderland 10a 332 mmn Hall
Ann Burns Sept qtr 1854 Sunderland 10a 305 mmn Hall
Only one at present I have trouble finding is Mary J in 1861 census aged 9 b Sunderland, their is a Mary Jane BURN March qtr 1851 Sunderland v24 373 No Mothers maiden name, is she the Mary aged 22 on 1881 census?
Marriage of Owen Burns to Mary Hall anyone?
Keyboard86
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Hi keyboard86, Owen is transcribed as Owen BURN, rather than BURNS on 1861 Census, so Mary Jane BURN could be our Mary Jane? The date seems to fit?
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Hi keyboard86, Owen is transcribed as Owen BURN, rather than BURNS on 1861 Census, so Mary Jane BURN could be our Mary Jane? The date seems to fit?
:) I know that I posted it! The other early births I can locate as you see, it is just Mary J 9 in 1861 that is causing me problems, eg if Mary Jane Burn is her why no mothers maiden name like her siblings, and also marriage Owen Burn/s to Mary possibly Hall?
Keyboard86
PS and Mary 22 in 1881?
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Hi again also note the 1871 family with Anne 17 Julia 15 James 13 Patrick 5 was a Mary Jane 1 the only one I could locate on Free BMD was a Mary Jane M Burns March qtr 1870 Sunderland 10a 502 but for some reason cannot locate on GRO Index?
In addition to 1871 family above Owen/Mary had a son Owen, Sept qtr 1863 Sunderland 10a 413 mmn Hall who dies 1864 Sunderland, Owen Burns snr looks to have died March qtr 1863 Sunderland aged 35, and also a death for a Mary Jane BURN March qtr 1875 Sunderland 10a 49 aged 5
Keyboard86