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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: Littletoot on Monday 25 December 17 11:24 GMT (UK)

Title: Royal Horse Artillery Soldier
Post by: Littletoot on Monday 25 December 17 11:24 GMT (UK)
Hello,
My ancestor James Allen was in the Royal Horse Artillery 1825 - 1846.  I found him and his family on the 1851 census living in Willesborough Kent.  Can anyone tell me if serving Soldiers and their families would have been counted on the 1841 census ?  I've done a check on James wife's name (Elizabeth) and some of the kids but can't find them on the 1841 census.
Thanks Have a really nice Christmas, my family and I spent it around the pool eating ham and prawns - however I would prefer some snow seeing as the air con has just failed!!!  You can tell Im from Aus
Many thanks
Janette
Title: Re: Royal Horse Artillery Soldier
Post by: stanmapstone on Monday 25 December 17 11:37 GMT (UK)
Soldiers in barracks in England and Wales were always enumerated in the same manner as the inmates of other institutions. Small barracks were treated as private households to be enumerated by the ordinary enumerator. Soldiers and their families, not in England and Wales, were not enumerated until 1911.

Stan
Title: Re: Royal Horse Artillery Soldier
Post by: Littletoot on Monday 25 December 17 12:46 GMT (UK)
Thanks Stan for your quick reply,
I must dig  alittle deeper and see if I can find them on the 1841 census. His 2nd youngest was born in Sheffield in 1838 and the youngest born in Newcastle upon Tyne in 1842.
I'll have another look.
Thanks for your help
Janette
Title: Re: Royal Horse Artillery Soldier
Post by: Bruiser on Monday 25 December 17 20:33 GMT (UK)
G'day Janette,

This looks like the family in 1841 at St John Northumberland indexed as Berwick Square but probably is meant to be Barrack Square and is available on both FamilySearch and Ancestry

James Allan  35 occupation Ar (struck through) Not born in County
Elizbth         30                                               Ireland
Thos            13                                               Ireland
Susanah        9                                               Ireland
John              6                                               Not born in County
Jane              4                                               Not born in County
Elizbeth         6mths                                        Born in County

Daughter Elizabeth bpt. 30 May 1841 no dob given at St. Andrew Newcastle upon Tyne abode Barracks occupation gunner. The image is available on FamilySearch in the England, Durham Diocese Bishop's Transcripts for Northumberland, Newcastle upon Tyne, St Andrew, 1838-1857, image no. 102.

Bruce.

Title: Re: Royal Horse Artillery Soldier
Post by: stanmapstone on Monday 25 December 17 21:50 GMT (UK)
You can see Barrack Square and the Cavalry and Infantry Barracks on the map at https://www.old-maps.co.uk/#/Map/423786/564945/12/101338
Change the zoom level.
Or this map http://maps.nls.uk/view/101099345#zoom=4&lat=4932&lon=5176&layers=BT
Stan
Title: Re: Royal Horse Artillery Soldier
Post by: Littletoot on Monday 25 December 17 22:54 GMT (UK)
HI Bruiser and Stan
Thank you so much, this is definitely my Allen family.  I looked on Ancestry but I kept putting in James as being born in Leceistershire which he was and I wasn't seeing anything that matched.
Just out of curiosity what search parameters did you use ?
Thanks
Janette
Title: Re: Royal Horse Artillery Soldier
Post by: Bruiser on Tuesday 26 December 17 00:01 GMT (UK)
G'day Janette,

I had a look at the 1851 census and then searched for a bpt. for Elizabeth in Newcastle 1839-1843 on FamilySearch. After looking at the image in the BT's and finding his occupation was a gunner I thought that this was very likely the right family.

As Elizabeth was bpt. on 30 May 1841 and the census was taken on the 06 June it seemed very likely that she would be found in Newcastle, in Barracks close to St. Andrew's and Born in the County so I searched for her rather than James. It was easy to find her as Allan on FamilySearch which I prefer for name variants.

You can see on the maps Stan posted links for that the Artillery Barracks are just a little NW of St. Andrew's Church in Gallowgate. There is also an image online of Barracks Square with description taken ca. 1894 posted by Newcastle Libraries. Just search for Barracks Square, Newcastle.

Bruce.
Title: Re: Royal Horse Artillery Soldier
Post by: Littletoot on Thursday 28 December 17 06:25 GMT (UK)
Hi Bruce
Thanks for the information on James Allen and his family.  I'm wondering if I may be able to ask another question regarding James Allen.  He enlisted in Royal Horse Artillery 1/1/1825 and discharged on medical grounds 13/1/1846.  On the papers that were sent to me from the National Archives there is one line that he married 30 September 1826. From census records etc his wife was born in Ireland as were his two eldest children Thomas 1827 and Susannah 1830.  So I guess his regiment were stationed in Ireland? It would be nice to read about where and why they were there.  However my question is being a soldier when he married how could I follow that up to find a marriage between James and Elizabeth. Would that be documented in regimental papers? would they have to get permission to marry? I think her surname was McGrath, I have a document here when they came to Australia and it said Megra, however I think that may be a tranposing error.
Any information that you can point me to would be so much appreciated.
Best regards
Janette - still hot here downunder!!!!
Title: Re: Royal Horse Artillery Soldier
Post by: Littletoot on Thursday 28 December 17 06:26 GMT (UK)
Sorry Bruiser, I thought you were located in UK - silly me
Title: Re: Royal Horse Artillery Soldier
Post by: stanmapstone on Thursday 28 December 17 10:00 GMT (UK)
Would that be documented in regimental papers? would they have to get permission to marry?

Marriages of Soldiers:
It should be known that by the Queen's/King's regulations for the army the previous consent of the commanding officer is requisite to the marriage of a soldier, otherwise his wife cannot be recognised as such by the rules of military discipline. Although the commanding officer is not authorized by law to forbid the banns or other preliminary proceedings, he may take other steps to check an improvident marriage. From "The Marriage Law of England"

Stan
Title: Re: Royal Horse Artillery Soldier
Post by: Bruiser on Thursday 28 December 17 10:03 GMT (UK)
G'day Janette,

There are births for a Thomas Allen at Kilmainham 1828 and a Susanah Allen at Athlone 1831 in British Nationals Armed Forces Births 1761-2005 on findmypast that might be worth a look if you thought either of these sounded like your family and they would probably confirm Elizabeth's maiden name. I couldn't find a marriage in the associated page for either Elizabeth or James so they may have married in her local church.

My 3X great-grandfather's discharge records from the 5th Btn Royal Horse Artillery in 1848 have quite a lot of information on just where he served and dates of promotion. Perhaps if you posted which Btn he was with and any listed places and dates of service if you have them it might help.

Bruce in Brissie. 
Title: Re: Royal Horse Artillery Soldier
Post by: Littletoot on Friday 05 January 18 21:16 GMT (UK)
Hi Bruce, Since our last post I have organised a Find My Past subscription. I did find the baptism indexes you mentioned.  They certainly sound like the children of my James Allen. I think I also saw the birth/baptism of 2 of the other siblings as well. John E (1834)who by my records was born in Woolwich and Jane ( 1838) Sheffield.  ??  So my question is where do I apply to obtain the actual entry of baptism/birth?  I saw your note about if I find out what regiment James was in I may be able to read more about his service.  I have his discharge papers but all I see is that he was a gunner in the RHA.  So another question how do I find his battalion?
Thanks so much for taking the time to read this I am very appreciative of any help. I must also learn to use FindMyPast properly now its a bit different to Ancestry in its search parameters!!!
Cheers
Janette
Title: Re: Royal Horse Artillery Soldier
Post by: Bruiser on Friday 05 January 18 23:44 GMT (UK)
G'day Janette,

Most of the service records that I have from around this period run to about four pages or more and the soldier's unit is usually written in on the first page just to the right of crest and sometimes there is additional information on the unit just below the crest and just above the soldier's name.

I would have a close look at the documents again noting in particular anything that has been written in. These can be hard to read and sometimes the abbreviations hard to decipher but you could post them here. I noticed that findmypast appears to have documents relating to this in their British Army Service Records but these might only be the same ones that the National Archives sent you.

With regards to the Armed Forces Births once you have the relevant details from findmypast you can then purchase them from the GRO though they might not contain any extra information as was the case of two of mine from Gibraltar. As the four baptisms that you now have are quite early it may be that Elizabeth's maiden name might not be listed. The description of just what they can contain on FindMyPast is somewhat vague in regard to this.

Bruce.

   
Title: Re: Royal Horse Artillery Soldier
Post by: Bruiser on Saturday 06 January 18 04:09 GMT (UK)
G'day Janette,

The image for the bpt. of John Edwin Allen is available on Ancestry. He was born 27 Jun 1834 and bpt. on 27 Jul 1834 at St Mary Magdalene, Woolwich.

Bruce.