RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Suffolk => Topic started by: Greensleeves on Tuesday 26 December 17 21:15 GMT (UK)
-
I have a rather sad story in the Garnham part of my FT and wonder if anyone can throw any light on what happened to Edith Grace Johnson, who was born 5 Oct 1919 in Ipswich, so we need to be aware that she might - just might - still be alive. Her parents were Rose Alice Garnham born 7 March 1888 Ipswich, died 14 June 1924, Ipswich when Edith was five years old, and Richard Johnson, born 1877, Camberwell, Surrey.
Before my mother died - many years ago now - she told me that after Rose died, Richard Johnson brought up Edith, but that in 1941 (by which time Edith would have been in her early 20s) she visited my maternal grandparents, and she had a baby with her who was her daughter. No other information is known, other than that Edith left with her child, saying she was returning to London, but promised to keep in touch And that was the last that was ever heard of her or her child (whose name I don't know).
I have tried to find out what happened to them, but with no success. Jan (Groom) has helped me in the past and she found Edith as a patient in the East Suffolk Hospital, Anglesea Road, Ipswich in the 1939 census, but other than that I can't find anything about her. Family speculation was that Edith and her baby died in the blitz, or Edith married and went abroad, but it would be good to solve this family mystery, if at all possible.
-
If she shows in 1939, then surely the official line is that she has died.
If she is recorded under no other surname, then she did not marry whilst records were being updated.
When and where did Richard die?
-
I have looked at births in Ipswich for surname Johnson, 1939-1941 all came up with mother's maiden names so I wonder if she used another surname, assuming that is that the child was born in Ipswich
also
Checked births for same years MMN Johnson and a few come up, is it worth while you checking this to see if you recognise a familiar surname
Louisa Maud
added
Only death I can find is shown
Edith Grace Black died 1992 Chatham
born 06/10/1919
Can't find a marriage yet
-
No other information is known, other than that Edith left with her child, saying she was returning to London, but promised to keep in touch
"Returning to London" seems to indicate that's where she had come from (to visit) so could be the child was born there. Maybe she was in service of some kind but London is a big place to search for a Johnson birth even if that supposition is correct :(
-
This to be honest is a difficult one as we don't know if it is Johnson we are looking for or MMN Johnson
Louisa Maud
-
Edith as a patient in the East Suffolk Hospital, Anglesea Road, Ipswich
What about contacting this hospital but they might have closure practice in order, poss 75 or 100 years
Louisa Maud
-
Was Edith their only child?
looking at births Edith Grace appears to be the only one born in Ipswich with MMN GARNHAM
Louisa Maud
-
Richard sounds a lovely man from his war records, good character,sober,steady hard working man.
Jennifer
-
Thanks everyone for your help with this. I agree, Jennifer, Richard does sound like a lovely man. I was rather pleased to find that they were living at 69 Ranelagh Road, Ipswich. This house was one of three bought by my great-grandmother to house family members, and it was where I lived with my parents for a short while in the early 1950s.
As far as I can tell, Edith was the only child of Richard and Rose. I have no idea where Edith's child was born, but as she turned up at my grandmother's house in Ipswich in 1941 or thereabouts, family history has it that she had gone to London after being discharged from hospital in 1939. I assume that Edith is now dead; I wonder what happened to her child. Really difficult, as you say, Louisa Maud, as I don't even have a name for the child. I was hoping to find a death for Edith so at least I could, so to speak, put her to rest.
-
If she shows in 1939, then surely the official line is that she has died.
If she is recorded under no other surname, then she did not marry whilst records were being updated.
I agree Chempat - there are others on the page where the record is still closed and others where the name has been updated, so I think we can fairly safely assume she has died unmarried.
Unless she was in the hospital having the baby, it looks as if her daughter was born between the end of September 1939 and 1941 when she returned to Ipswich.
-
When did Richard die, please?
-
I still haven't found a death for Richard. The details I have for him are that he was born 1877 in Camberwell, Surrey, and this is taken from his attestation papers. Further military papers show his marriage to Rose Alice Garnham in Felixstowe, and I am assuming he knew where he was born and which year. There is another tree on Ancestry which shows him as Richard William H T Johnson, but so far I've found no evidence whatsoever of any additional forenames, other than Richard. This tree claims he was born in Ipswich but I have found no evidence to this effect. Indeed, I can't even find him in any censuses, although according to his Army papers his father was James Johnson of 63 Royal Terrace, Kennington Park. He also had a brother, William, who served in the Hampshire Regiment, and sisters Margaret and Kate.
-
Marriage took place June qtr 1915 Woodbridge registration district 4a 3745
Did you find Richard on 1939?
Louisa Maud
-
Jan (Groom) might well have found him in 1939, at a lodging house in the same road as the hospital wherein Edith was languishing.
-
As GS said, there is a possibility that he was a boarder in the same road as the hospital in 1939.
There is a death in 1958 Camberwell ( where he was born) of a Richard Johnson born 1877, but it isn’t an uncommon name so really impossible to say if it was him. However, his death doesn't help find Edith unless she was still alive and registered it.
-
Having tried to find Richard's birth have come across the following, I have no idea if it is anything to do with your Richard
Richard born 1877 Camberwell
Margaret born 1873 Sunderland
William born 1870 Sunderland
Not found Kate yet
All mother's maiden name BURNS
IS THIS JUST A COINCIDENCE?
Louisa Maud
-
Yes -
JOHNSON, RICHARD mmn BURNS
GRO Reference: 1877 J Quarter in CAMBERWELL
Volume 01D Page 748
-
Oh amazing, Louisa Maud and Jan!!!!!
-
Can't find a marriage though of a James Johnson and a Burns.
-
Why aren't they coming up elsewhere?
LM
-
Very odd, if we have the right family it should be headed by a James Johnson and they should be in Sunderland in 1871 and probably Camberwell in 1881!
-
I agree Groom but not so far
LM
-
I wonder
Sept qtr 1865 Sunderland only has 1 cross reference showing for a marriage James Johnson to Hannah Clarke, wonder if ? Burns has been left off
ref 10a 631
What thinkest thou folks?
Louisa Maud
-
I wonder
Sept qtr 1865 Sunderland only has 1 cross reference showing for a marriage James Johnson to Hannah Clarke, wonder if ? Burns has been left off
ref 10a 631
What thinkest thou folks?
Louisa Maud
One male plus one female - so no reason to think anyone is missing. One sometimes sees this at the end of a quarter where an odd number of couples married so only one couple has a particular reference.
-
I agree, avm, nothing abnormal about that record.
I presume Louisa Maud may be thinking it was a second marriage for Hannah? I think that is a red herring as they look to be the childless couple in 1871.
The only way GS could check is to get Richard's birth certificate. However, this isn't really what she is after on this thread - it is the elusive Edith we need.
As she went back to London in 1941, at the height of the Blitz, I wonder if she was killed and her identity not discovered?
-
I don't think we have been told the date of the military record in which Richard's father's details (including the Royal Terrace address) were given?
Incidentally, 63 Royal Terrace, Walworth turns up later as the address of a Kiff family killed by a direct hit on the Kennington Park bomb shelters in 1940.
-
No red herrings, I just thought that there would be at least 4 names listed
Ah well, I tried, well still trying, how can a whole family not be showing on any census so far
BTW what date was his attestation papers to be showing father's address?
LM
oops sorry AVM
-
Royal Terrace fell within Southwark RD.
The 1910 electoral roll shows James Johnson at 65 (not 63) Royal Terrace, a dwelling house.
At the same address: Thomas Chandler.
-
Jan (Groom) might well have found him in 1939, at a lodging house in the same road as the hospital wherein Edith was languishing.
Why was she 'languishing?
If Richard was lodging near her in 1939, then did they both move to London together?
Death year for Richard just in case a will might be found.
-
History is silent on whether or not she was languishing but as she was an in-patient at the time, one must suppose she was certainly not partying.....
The suspicion must be that Richard and his daughter Edith moved to London together, in or about 1939, in the absence of other evidence to the contrary, since Edith returned to Ipswich with a tiny baby, in about 1940/41 stating she had been living in London.
As yet, we have been unable to establish a death year for Richard, unfortunately.
-
After 1910 it looks as if James had moved from Royal Terr
Perhaps she was languishing because she was already pregnant, morning sickness and all that, well just a suggestion
LM
-
Richard sounds a lovely man from his war records, good character,sober,steady hard working man.
Jennifer
Can someone put me out of my misery?? Can only find his attestation papers, nothing else! How do I find the army records referred to here that show father as James, etc. etc.?
Annette
-
They're all on Ancestry, Annette. If you find his attestation papers, click on the arrow on the right-hand side and you can work your way through all the documents relating to him.
-
Here's a screenshot of the relevant part of the document. It shows the names and addresses of Richard's wife (Rose Alice), father and siblings.
Regards
GS
-
When you said 'languishing' I immediately thought of a mental hospital or long-term stay (TB?), and when she appeared with a baby I thought you meant she had been 'abandoned' by Richard.
But if Richard was near her hospital, and then they both returned/moved to London, you may have no idea what happened to her, but Richard may have known about her all the time.
Similarly, as you do not know what happened to Richard as you do not know about his death, he may have married again and had a whole new family out there?
It looks like Kate was a grandaughter on that record?
-
Well spotted about Kate, Chempat - I hadn't noticed that. So, Kate was James's grand-daughter... (goes off to check birth records).
-
What date is the attestation papers
LM
-
Interesting how these searches take us galloping off in various directions. Probably of no relevance to this search, but looking up details of Royal Terrace, Kennington Park, I found details of a tragedy which happened there on 15th October 1940. An unknown number of people were seeking refuge in an air raid shelter in the Park, when it suffered a direct hit, killing all those within. The death toll was never released, although it is thought it was well over 100. Only about 50 of the dead were identified, and looking at the list of the known dead, it does include people from nearby streets, including Royal Terrace, although no Johnsons.
http://www.vauxhallandkennington.org.uk/forgottentragedy.pdf
-
Louisa Maud, Richard enlisted in the Royal Regiment of Artillery on 11 February 1909, so well before the outbreak of WW1. He married Rose Alice Garnham on 9th June 1915.
Regards
GS
-
So we looking for a Kate Johnson before that date, don't know how they all missed the census
LM
-
Image number 81479 gives him an age of 18 in year 1909 - or am I on the wrong page, or does it mean he is above 18 years of age?
Malta is also mentioned in his residence place?
-
Richard in 1911?
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWRX-HNW
-
Interesting how these searches take us galloping off in various directions. Probably of no relevance to this search, but looking up details of Royal Terrace, Kennington Park, I found details of a tragedy which happened there on 15th October 1940. An unknown number of people were seeking refuge in an air raid shelter in the Park, when it suffered a direct hit, killing all those within. The death toll was never released, although it is thought it was well over 100. Only about 50 of the dead were identified, and looking at the list of the known dead, it does include people from nearby streets, including Royal Terrace, although no Johnsons.
http://www.vauxhallandkennington.org.uk/forgottentragedy.pdf
Could that be the tragic answer to this post? Knowing how dates get confused when passed down in families, could she have visited Ipswich in 1940, gone back to London and been one of the unidentified dead killed in the bomb shelter?
-
That is a possible explanation to the disappearance of Edith and her baby, Jan. It's in the right place, since we know Richard's father and siblings lived there in or about 1909. Whilst they weren't at the Royal Terrace address in 1911 it is quite possible that they remained in the area.
As you say, the date Edith turned up unannounced at my grandmother's house with her baby could well have been 1940 rather than 1941. And when she decided to return to London, the family tried to dissuade her because of the dangers from bombings.
This is, of course, supposition, but from the evidence we have, it is quite possible that this is what happened to her.
-
Unfortunately, I think that may well be the case. It seems very strange that if she survived the war she didn’t contact her family again. They obviously accepted the baby and didn’t cast her out because of that. Very Sad.
-
I mentioned the bomb shelter tragedy back at reply #25 re the Kiff family who are traceable through the years at 63 Royal Terrace, three members of which were killed in the 1940 tragedy. William Ansell Kiff's name is helpful in finding relevant electoral rolls for the area, as his family were long-settled at that address.
I'd be hesitant, however, to jump to the conclusion that the Kennington Park tragedy directly affected the Johnson family. Their sojourn at Royal Terrace seems to have been notably short. James Johnson is connected with the address only by the 1909 military record and the 1910 electoral roll - and no other electoral roll, earlier or later.
-
If that army record of Richard says that brother William's army number was 6310
Then there's one for him too!
Attested 27 Sep 1901, Hampshire Regiment
Age 18
Labourer
Born Newington near London, county of Surrey
Father James William Johnson, 7 Albany ?? St Camberwell London SE
Younger Brother Richard Johnson
-
That doesn't tie in age wise though?
-
That doesn't tie in age wise though?
No, but perhaps this is where we have been going wrong, looking for a William b 1870 Sunderland?
It appears to me that 7 Albany St has been corrected to 7 Olney St.
-
Having tried to find Richard's birth have come across the following, I have no idea if it is anything to do with your Richard
Richard born 1877 Camberwell
Margaret born 1873 Sunderland
William born 1870 Sunderland
Not found Kate yet
All mother's maiden name BURNS
IS THIS JUST A COINCIDENCE?
Louisa Maud
Is this info completely wrong then?, ages don't seem to tie up
Louisa Maud
-
I know it doesn't bring us nearer to Edith Grace but
1901 William Johnson, Gunner aged 18 in Sheerness Garrison born Camberwell
REF RG13/816 FOLIO 81 PAGE 8
So now we aren't sure where he was born
I wonder if father was an absentee father
Louisa Maud
-
It appears to me that 7 Albany St has been corrected to 7 Olney St.
1901 census for 7 Olney St, Newington
James Johnson Head wid 41 Asphalter b Lambeth
Minnie do Daur 20 Lambeth
William do Son 17 Lambeth
Richard do Son 8 Lambeth
Kathleen do Daur 4 Lambeth (this could be Kate)
-
The Richard born Camberwell 1877 with mother Burn is definitely GS's Richard, as confirmed by his army records which gives his POB and his marriage to Rose Garnham. I think the problem is that his family can't be found in censuses to identify his parents' first names, although we know his father was James, I think.
The thread does seem to have strayed away from GS's original request, so it may be better to wait for her to tell us if she has any of this information already.
-
The Richard born Camberwell 1877 with mother Burn is definitely GS's Richard, as confirmed by his army records which gives his POB and his marriage to Rose Garnham.
But the Army record linking Richard to Rose Garnham also links him to James, Margaret, William and Kate and (via William's regimental number and record) to 7 Olney St.
The same Army record for Richard has him as aged 18 on enlistment in February 1909, born in Camberwell. So why 1877? Is that a different soldier?
-
Her parents were Rose Alice Garnham born 7 March 1888 Ipswich, died 14 June 1924, Ipswich when Edith was five years old, and Richard Johnson, born 1877, Camberwell, Surrey.
This is why we need GS to confirm dates.
-
I still haven't found a death for Richard. The details I have for him are that he was born 1877 in Camberwell, Surrey, and this is taken from his attestation papers. Further military papers show his marriage to Rose Alice Garnham in Felixstowe
Have the military records for two separate Richards perhaps been elided here? It may be that the 1877 one is a red herring and that this explains the difficulties experienced in trying to trace him.
-
William Johnson b 16 Aug 1883 was baptised 2 Sep 1883 at St John's, Waterloo Rd.
Parents: James William Johnson (asphalter) and Margaret, of 12 Charles St, Westminster Bridge Rd.
-
Margaret Glover???
LM
-
Well, shows I can't count if I have his dob as 1877 and he was 18 in 1909. Whoops, my apologies there. Presumably his dob should read 1891, which as you say would account for the lack of evidence of him in the censuses. That means he was five years older than Rose, his wife, so still a comparatively young man when Rose died.
Regards
GS
-
I don't know how this fits in
James William Johnson full age asphalter 2 Kinaston St ? father Frederick dec
to
Margaret Glover full age father Thomas dec
04/08/1879
St Johns Waterloo
witnesses W D Mann and Elizabeth Mann
LM
-
Is this now the correct Richard? Date still slightly out
JOHNSON, RICHARD mmn GLOVER
1893 M Quarter in CAMBERWELL
Volume 01D Page 903 Order
-
This could be Richard in 1911 - from FamilySearch in the army in Malta
Richard Johnson
1911
Elmo Malta, Overseas Military,
Age 20
Marital Status SINGLE
Birth Year (Estimated) 1891
Birthplace Camberwell, Surrey
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X7VW-JVP
-
And James Johnson and Kate with the married Margaret in the free index, same year
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW5B-L18
-
So Richard's marriage certificate to confirm Father, and birth certificate with exact date of birth to find him in 1939 for possible useful address also, and to search for his death?
-
This could be Richard in 1911 - from FamilySearch in the army in Malta
Richard Johnson
1911
Elmo Malta, Overseas Military,
Age 20
Marital Status SINGLE
Birth Year (Estimated) 1891
Birthplace Camberwell, Surrey
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X7VW-JVP
Looks good - his Army record shows he was in Malta 1909-1914.
-
1881 census: RG11/531/69/5
12 Charles St, Southwark (matches the address on William's 1883 baptism)
James William Johnson Head Mar 24 Labourer Surrey Lambeth
Minnie do Wife Mar 25 Surrey Lambeth
Minnie do Daur 10mo Surrey Southwark
Minnie Johnson mmn Glover, birth reg Sep qtr 1880 St Saviour Southwark
-
These baptisms:
Minnie Johnson baptised 4 July 1880 Lambeth St John the Evangelist Lambeth James William,
Margaret
Frederick Johnson baptised 16 April 1882 Lambeth St John the Evangelist Lambeth James William, Margaret
William Johnson baptised 2 September 1883 Lambeth St John the Evangelist Lambeth James William, Margaret
Margaret Johnson baptised 6 September 1885 Earls Court St Matthias Kensington and Chelsea James William, Margaret
James Johnson baptised 3 May 1885 (born September 18th 1884) Earls Court St Matthias Kensington and Chelsea James William, Margaret
The records on Ancestry stop in 1892 in Kensington, so Richard would not show.
-
No wonder I was having problems - was searching for a Richard bc.1870's Camberwell??
Richard's sister Margaret (shown as Minnie at birth, and on earlier census) married a Thomas Alfred Chandler 19/4/1908 and her address was given as '65 Royal Terrace' which thus confirms the army service record address. By the next census her father and sister Kate (shown as Kathleen in 1901) are living with them.
Annette
-
Richard's sister Margaret (shown as Minnie at birth, and on earlier census) married a Thomas Alfred Chandler 19/4/1908 and her address was given as '65 Royal Terrace' which thus confirms the army service record address. By the next census her father and sister Kate (shown as Kathleen in 1901) are living with them.
That's great re 65 Royal Terrace. We now have references to that address in connection with the Johnson family spanning 1908-1910.
I am not sure Margaret (jnr) and Minnie (jnr) are the same person. Margaret is 22 when she marries Thomas Alfred Chandler in Feb 1908, consistent with the 1885 baptism found by chempat and in turn with this birth reg:
Margaret Johnson mmn Glover, Sep qtr 1885 Kensington
Also: James Johnson mmn Glover, Dec qtr 1884 Kensington, again consistent with the Earl's Court baptism.
-
1891 census: 3 Providence Place, Lambeth
James W Johnson Head Mar 32 Asphalter, King St Lambeth
Minnie do Wife Mar 35, George St Camberwell
Minnie do Daur 10, Charles St Lambeth
William do Son 7, Charles St Lambeth
James do Son 6, Earls Ct Kensington
Margaret do Daur 5, Earls Ct Kensington
Walter do Son 1, Commercial St Lambeth
RG12/388/112/69
-
This might be Walter (with family on 1891 census):
Birth of Walter Johnson mmn Glora in June quarter 1890 in Lambeth
-
Possible death for Walter Johnson: Jun qtr 1892 Camberwell, aged 2.
-
Thank you all so much for all your hard work and excellent sleuthing, and apologies once again for that erroneous dob. I still don't know where I got that from or why......
I am really pleased that we have established Richard and his family firmly in Lambeth/Camberwell, because this would lead me to think that after Rose's death, Richard and Edith may well have moved back to that area,or at least maintained contact. At Rose's death, they were living in a house owned by my great-grandmother in Ipswich, and I have no idea how long they stayed there.
Another thing I noticed from Richard's army papers is that he was discharged from the Army suffering from 'neurasthenia', subsequently termed 'shell-shock', so it must have been a very difficult time for him when Rose died, as Edith, their daughter, would only have been about five years old at the time. We know from the 1939 census that Edith was in Ipswich & East Suffolk Hospital, though, and then according to family oral history, Edith went to London, returned in 1940 to visit my grandmother, and then returned to London, never to be heard of again.
-
What a shame that after all the research you are no nearer finding Edith and her baby, you never know something might turn up when you least expect it, don't give up
I do wonder if she lived with one of her siblings in London and might be listed on ER's
Happy hunting
Louisa Maud
-
Sad that we can't establish a death. However, I very much suspect that she, and perhaps the baby, did die in the bombings in London and were unable to be identified. From what you have said, she had no reason to cut off contact with her Ipswich family, they loved her, took her in when she visited and accepted the baby. I feel sure that if she'd survived the war she would have been in touch.
It would be useful if we could discover where Edith and her father were between her mother's death and 1939. Did Richard take her back to London to be with his family I wonder? If so, why was she in Ipswich in 1939, and why did she end up in hospital there? Perhaps something we'll never know.
-
Was Edith open on the 39 Register to begin with? Because that would suggest she died before 1991 or thereabouts. I don't see how she could have been matched up to a death record, since we can't find one. Even though from 1969 d-o-b's are given in the indexes.
As Richard was so much younger than thought, only about 31 when Rose died, he might have remarried?
-
Finding the correct Richard in 1939 would potentially be interesting. As chempat said earlier, it's a shame we don't have his exact DOB.
-
Was Edith open on the 39 Register to begin with? Because that would suggest she died before 1991 or thereabouts. I don't see how she could have been matched up to a death record, since we can't find one. Even though from 1969 d-o-b's are given in the indexes.
Yes, as far as I can tell. She is in a list of patients, a few have had names changed presumably on marriage and some are still closed.
I'm not sure how the 1939 register and updates worked. If she was killed during the war and her body never identified, but she was reported as missing by her father or relatives in London would that have been recorded somewhere but a death certificate not issued as there was no body? After all she wouldn't have used her ration cards or the NHS when it was introduced.
-
Looking at what we have, I think Richard may have lied about his age when he joined up and claimed to be 18 when he was only 16.
If we have the right birth he was born Camberwell March quarter 1893
In the 1901 census he was 8 which gives a birth 0f 1893
On enlisting in 1909 he claims to be exactly 18 so a birth of 1891
On the 1911 census ( in the army) he is down as born 1891
-
Have you checked ER's at Ipswich, also have you looked at where Richard's siblings lived in London, did Edith go to them, do you think Richard might have returned to London and suffered the same end as is suggested Edith did
Louisa Maud
-
Sorry, but think his birth certificate is required. (Could have been born at end of 1892 to show in March quarter 1893)
He lied about his age when joined the army in 1909 - why was he so keen to join?
If he maintained that lie in 1939, or reverted to correct age, there are very few Richard Johnsons showing, and none in a very obvious area. He may have already died.
There are various Edith G Johnsons showing on ER's, often as a single female, but could be any age.
-
The last precise address we have for Richard is 69 Ranelagh Road, Ipswich (to where he was discharged from the Army in August 1918).
Then the family was still in Ipswich for Edith's birth in 1919 and Rose's death in 1924.
-
WWII Deaths
Richard Johnson, age about 45, of 35 Harrison Street, Gray's Inn Road, Husband of the late Rose Alice Johnson. 26th September 1940, at 35 Harrison Street.
(I forgot to look for him under 'new' birth year, up to just now. No mention of Edith)
-
Wow - great find, chempat :)
So (amongst other things) no remarriage for Richard.
-
WWII Deaths
Richard Johnson, age about 45, of 35 Harrison Street, Gray's Inn Road, Husband of the late Rose Alice Johnson. 26th September 1940, at 35 Harrison Street.
(I forgot to look for him under 'new' birth year, up to just now. No mention of Edith)
Civil death registration as Richard Johnson, 45, Pancras in Dec qtr 1940.
-
Just looking at some of the other names on the page, and also there (arranged alphabetically by district) is an Alfred William Hunn (age 65) of the same address (35 Harrison Street)
I only noticed the death (from Ancestry) because it mentioned his late wife, as age was out.
-
Oh gosh, Chempat, that's made me go all shivery.... so he died in the blitz.... And that must have been about the time that Edith and the baby turned up at my grandparents' house. Richard must have still been alive then, or the family would have know of his death. It makes me feel sad, but also content that we have found out at least what happened to Richard. Thank you so much everyone for your help with this.
-
WOW, what a find after all the info sorted through
What about his death cert, next of kin, is it worth purchasing?
LM
-
Alfred W Hunn (and wife Annie,) were at 35 Harrison Street on 1939 ER's, also there were Elizabeth Howard, George Evans, Maria Sarah Day and Robert Johnson.
Make of that what you will.
-
Alfred W Hunn (and wife Annie,) were at 35 Harrison Street on 1939 ER's, also there were Elizabeth Howard, George Evans, Maria Sarah Day and Robert Johnson.
Make of that what you will.
Perhaps a mistake for Richard (cf 1939 Register)?
He's also down as Robert at that address in 1938. No sign of him there in 1936.
-
Wow Chempat, what a find! That's brilliant. From the 1939 it looks as if he changed his dob yet again!
-
This has been an amazing story to follow :) but the 1939 entry gives yet another date of birth for Richard (has to be him though).
-
What about his death cert, next of kin, is it worth purchasing?
Unfortunately it may not add much (re Edith at least) - the informant would I think have been the coroner.
-
Lots of twists and turns here, but slowly unraveling.
-
In case Edith was staying with her father at 35 Harrison St when she had the baby, there is one (and only one) Johnson birth registered with mmn Johnson in St Pancras district 1938-1940.
Date of reg is Sep qtr 1938. Name is a female one but obviously too recent to post here - easy to find on FreeBMD.
Adding in nearby St Marylebone district does not add any further female possibilities in that period.
-
I do not have full access to 1939 - which Richard Johnson have you found, as I could see a Richard JohnsTon in Harrison Street, born 1894?
-
I do not have full access to 1939 - which Richard Johnson have you found, as I could see a Richard JohnsTon in Harrison Street, born 1894?
Image shows Richard Johnson (no T), at 35 Harrison St with Alfred and Annie Hunn (separate household at same address), born 1894.
Edited to add.... DOB shown would be right quarter, wrong year!
-
The story from my mother was that Edith turned up in Ipswich with 'a baby', but I don't suppose that would preclude a little one born in 1938 as the child wouldn't be more than two if Edith's visit was in 1940. Once again, I am so grateful to you all for your magnificent sleuthing in this matter; I am totally in awe of your skills, thank you all so much.
-
In case Edith was staying with her father at 35 Harrison St when she had the baby, there is one (and only one) Johnson birth registered with mmn Johnson in St Pancras district 1938-1940.
Date of reg is Sep qtr 1938. Name is a female one but obviously too recent to post here.
If Edith was in hospital in Ipswich in 1939, where was the baby?
-
In case Edith was staying with her father at 35 Harrison St when she had the baby, there is one (and only one) Johnson birth registered with mmn Johnson in St Pancras district 1938-1940.
Date of reg is Sep qtr 1938. Name is a female one but obviously too recent to post here.
If Edith was in hospital in Ipswich in 1939, where was the baby?
Good question- but being born in 1938, likely to be redacted wherever she was (whether or not she was Edith's child).
Just looked at Ipswich: there are no Johnson birth registrations with mmn Johnson in Ipswich 1938-1940.
-
There are a few redacted records at the hospital but not one under Edith’s entry.
-
I think I would get this child's cert, there is a way if ordered on ONS that you don't lose all of the fee if it is wrong, give as much info as you can and they will scan either side, worth a try, can't remember how it is done now as I never used it myself, perhaps someone has ?
Louisa Maud
-
There is a Johnson / Johnson baby registered in Camberwell in Sept quarter 1940 .....
Edited to say that there are loads of Johnson / Johnson births but the Camberwell one jumped out at me ;D
-
Whoever registered Richard's death must have known something about him to list his late wife , I do wonder who was informant on his cert?
Louisa Maud
-
To pad out the information you have all found for me, I found a record of a high explosive night time bomb which had a direct hit on Harrison Road where Richard was living. There were also records of two further bombs being dropped close by, so the street must have been more or less destroyed. This is what it looks like today.
-
Whoever registered Richard's death must have known something about him to list his late wife , I do wonder who was informant on his cert?
Louisa Maud
Not necessarily, as I think the wife information came from the WW2 Civilian War dead, so could have been compiled later from other sources. When did death certificates start giving the names of spouses?
As a slight aside, I looked through the pages of the Civilian War Dead, it’s very sad when you find whole families of young children, ranging from a few month to 10 years old, plus their parents, all killed on the same day.
-
The information about the death of Richard came from the WWII civilian deaths - for Richard it was in Volume 4 London Metropolitan boroughs Lambeth to Woolwich.
It was published by the Imperial War Graves Commission in 1954.
The information commonly gives both parents and spouses, with addresses, and also often lists where they were injured and when, and then when they subsequently died. Sometimes the spouse is recorded without a full first name.
(Just read deaths of children of 2 and 3, and their Mother age 22, - the Father/husband has same first names as my son)
So that there is more/different information as compared to the death certificate.
Added:
Sorry, groom, posted after you, but had not then read yours - we were thinking along the same lines.
-
It makes very sad reading doesn’t it? I knew it happened, but to actually see it in writing with details of parents really brings it home.
-
Hopefully GS you will let us know the outcome if you invest in a certificate
Louisa Maud
-
I will be sending for certificates, Louisa Maud, and I promise I will post the info when I receive them, so all you who have helped me in this quest will know the result. I am hugely indebted to you all, thank you so much and a very Happy New Year to you all.
GS xx
-
I have the birth certificate for the baby born in 1938, and I'm afraid we've drawn a blank as she's not the daughter of Edith. Watch this space for when we get the certificate for the 1940 baby. If that one isn't her, I think we've hit a brick wall, but I am well pleased that at least we know what happened to Richard Johnson, Edith's father.
-
I have the birth certificate for the baby born in 1938, and I'm afraid we've drawn a blank as she's not the daughter of Edith. Watch this space for when we get the certificate for the 1940 baby. If that one isn't her, I think we've hit a brick wall, but I am well pleased that at least we know what happened to Richard Johnson, Edith's father.
Hopefully the 1940 one will be right. The discovery of Richard's death was a brilliant break through wasn't it and maybe the same will happen with Edith. I don't think she would have deliberately cut herself off from the family, she had no reason to did she?
-
Oh dear, I do hope the next cert is correct, I really don't like people to waste their money on certs, if the 1940 is wrong do you think the original story was wrong or the dates were wrong, I do hope not
Good luck
Louisa Maud
-
I know the original story is true, as my mother was in her early 20s at the time, and lived with her parents when Edith turned up with her baby. But sadly everyone from that time is now dead, so no-one to ask regarding confirmation of dates. However, everyone who was there at the time told the same story, of Edith turning up with the baby, having been living in London. After staying for a while with my grandparents she decided to return to London, despite them begging her not to go. It's a pity I never thought to ask my mother or grandparents what the child's name was, as that might have narrowed the search down a bit. Also, we don't know where Edith gave birth to the baby, which is an added complication.
-
If you think back Greensleeves we never asked questions, more is the pity
Happy Hunting
LM
-
I think from what you've said about the time that Edith visited, I'm pretty sure that she did so before Richard died, otherwise, I think that would have been mentioned. Richard died at the end of September from what we now know. Given the fact there were relatives in Camberwell and that the baby whose certificate you are waiting for was born in the September quarter, so would fit the description given by your mother as "young baby", I'm hopeful this will be the right one.
-
Sadly, the second certificate also proved not to be for the right mother and baby, so I think we have hit a brick wall here which is rather sad.
-
Oh well, at least we've eliminated those two obvious lines. The problem is we haven't really got any idea when or where the baby was born, just that it was female and probably born between 1939 and 1940 as the family didn't seem to know of Richard's death.
-
Oh Dear Greensleeves
That really is a shame you have bought 2 duff certs, where do you go from here
She might well have taken on someone else's name
Don't give up GS
Louisa Maud
-
I think GS’s next move is to try and get Edith’s admission records from the Ipswich hospital to see why she was there. ( Although I think we have established there was no baby registered in Ipswich at that time) The admission and discharge records are available from Suffolk Archives.
-
As Jan says, the next step is to try to get the hospital admission records to see if we can find out why Edith was in hospital - was she giving birth or was there some other reason? I must admit I quite like a good puzzle, but this one has been going on since my great-grandmother died in 1952, when there were attempts to find Edith, but all enquiries drew a blank.
-
Is there a site anywhere that lists people who just disappeared in WW2? There must be hundreds killed in the bombing and who were never identified, or perhaps if whole families died together were never reported missing. I believe that people were supposed to carry identity cards, but that probably wouldn't be much help if you took a direct hit! Also in the case of public shelters did they know who was in there?