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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Yorkshire (East Riding & York) => Topic started by: teach3r on Thursday 28 December 17 14:45 GMT (UK)
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Hi everyone and thank you in advance for any help that can be given!
My great grandfather is George William Patterson (23/04/1898 (Hull) - 01/11/1970 (Hull)) for whom I have his birth, marriage and death certificates.
His marriage certificate of 03/04/20 shows that he married Madge Francis White in the district of Patrington and that they were living together at 11 South Cliff Road, Withernsea. Her father on the certificate is William White, coastguard (deceased).
If I have the right person, I have her living with her grandparents in Sculcoates in 1901 (RG13/4489 Page 35) and in 1911 still with her grandparents at 11 South Cliff Road (i.e. where she was when she got married). On both census she is shown as born in Waxholme around 1887. Her grandfather is shown as born in Padstow, Cornwall.
In the 1939 register her date of birth is shown as 14/12/1886. I have a birth certificate which I assumed was her as it is for Madge Frances White born on 14 December 1886 in Sandlemere, Waxholme but this is where it gets confusing!
On the birth cert the mother is shown as Emily Elizabeth White (a domestic servant). There is no father on the certificate, however, as mentioned earlier a William White is down as her father on the marriage certificate to my great grandfather.
Firstly, do you think that I have the right birth cert (I think there is enough circumstantial evidence to support this)?
Secondly, do you think the person on the marriage cert is actually her grandfather rather than another William White?
Thirdly, what happened to Emily Elizabeth White?
Thank you for any clarity that may be given.
Regards,
Nic
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Yes I firmly believe you have the right birth certificate.
It is far from uncommon to find a false name given for a father on a marriage certificate for a person born out of wedlock - presumably so as to sound more respectable in a time where illegitimacy carried a stigma.
Sometimes the name is that of a grandfather or other maternal male relative.
Sometimes it includes elements of the natural father's name.
Sometimes it includes elements of a stepfather's name.
Sometimes it seems completely made up!
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In this case the maternal grandfather was William White who in 1891 was a station officer with the Coast Guard, so it seems a strong likelihood that he is the inspiration for the "father" named in the marriage certificate - and if he and his wife had a hand in her upbringing, perhaps it's natural that she used his details when she married.
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William's daughter Emily White was 7 b Hatherleigh, Devon according to the 1871 census: RG10/4810/38/2.
Birth reg: Emily Elizabeth White, mmn Lane, Jun qtr 1863 Okehampton.
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Emily E White, 27 b Hatherleigh Devon, was in service in South Cliffe, Withernsea in 1891.
RG12/3947/52A/13.
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Thank you avm,
When you say "William's" daughter, do you mean "granddaughter" or "daughter".
Your kind help is much appreciated. Still trying to find the census record that you have mentioned.
Regards
Nic
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Emily was William's daughter. It's Madge who was his granddaughter.
Emily Elizabeth White married James William Wilson in Sculcoates, Dec qtr 1899.
She is with him in Sculcoates in 1901 as Emily E Wilson, 37 b Hatherleigh, Devon.
Ref is RG13/4494/7/6.
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avm - you are a superstar!
I am just trying to find the originals of all your kind research so that I can add to my tree.
Regards,
Nic
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Emily was William's daughter. It's Madge who was his granddaughter.
Emily Elizabeth White married James William Wilson in Sculcoates, Dec qtr 1899.
She is with him in Sculcoates in 1901 as Emily E Wilson, 37 b Hatherleigh, Devon.
Ref is RG13/4494/7/6.
Just to add to what avm has found
According to yorkshirebmd, the marriage for Emily Elizabeth White & James William Wilson took place at St Philips church Bilton Grange, Hull.
Bee
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In this case the maternal grandfather was William White who in 1891 was a station officer with the Coast Guard, so it seems a strong likelihood that he is the inspiration for the "father" named in the marriage certificate - and if he and his wife had a hand in her upbringing, perhaps it's natural that she used his details when she married.
Hi avm - I have William in the census for 1871, 1881, 1901 and 1911 but cannot find the entry you mentioned above. Could you tell me where this one is please?
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The reference for 1891 is RG12/3947/73/25.
Another way of getting there is to search for Madge F White b abt 1887 (she's 4 in that census).
Does that help?
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Thanks avm - searching by reference made the difference. I couldn't find it as the surname had been transcribed as Whili !!!
Nic
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Marriage Certificate: St Philip, Hull
When married: 06 December 1899
Name & Surname: James William Wilson
Age: 50
Condition: Widower
Rank or profession: Engineer
Residence at the time of marriage: Blundell Street
Father's name & surname: John Wilson
Rank or profession of father: Blacksmith
Name & Surname: Emily Elizabeth White
Age: 36
Condition: Spinster
Rank or profession: {blank}
Residence at the time of marriage: Charlotte Street
Father's name & surname: William White
Rank or profession of father: Naval Pensioner Chief P.O
By: J Wright Moore, vicar {possibly, the name is not very clear}
Witnesses: William White, Mary Elizabeth Neal
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Thank you keeperofthematrix - I will get on to ordering a copy of the certificate.
I guess finding out who Madge's real father was will always be a mystery!
Regards,
Nic
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Thank you avm, Bee and keeperofthematrix
Update on the original mystery:
1. Although Emily did marry James Wilson, do you think it is unlikely that he is the father of Madge given the time difference between her birth and the marriage? Therefore, I need to leave that branch of the tree as untraceable?
2. I have grandfather William White now in the census for 1841 and then 1871 to 1911 but not for 51 and 61.
3. I have Emily in 1871 - 1901 and will have a new look under Wilson for 1911
4. I have Emily's parents as William White and Grace Smale Tucker Lane although not sure if I have the correct Grace?
5. I have Madge for 1891-1911 and 1939
Thanks for all your help, time and research - it is much appreciated.
Nic
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5 Coxside Green Plymouth 1851 census
Lydia White wid 55 widow of officer of coast guard service Plymouth
Lydia 25 dress maker Plymouth
Eliza M 22 dress maker ? Devon
William 10 Padstow Cornwall
Jennifer
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1841 census high street Padstow
Ambrose White 40 upwards coast guard
Lydia 45
Lydia above 15
Ambrose 14 groom
Eliza 12
John 6
William 1
Only william jnr born in the county
Jennifer
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Ambrose White born 30/5/1797 bapt 19/6/1797 parents Ambrose and Mary ann Wesleyan Morice Street Devonport. Married 1818 Lydia Anthony.
Jennifer
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removed
Jennifer
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Thank you so much Jennifer for the 1851 and birth details.
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Ambrose White born 30/5/1797 bapt 19/6/1797 parents Ambrose and Mary ann Wesleyan Morice Street Devonport. Married 1818 Lydia Anthony.
Jennifer
Hi Jennifer - could you tell me please where you found the above?
Thank you,
Nic
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On Anc.....
Jennifer
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They are all on Family Search also mention of Ambrose White Devon Merchant Navy seamans record
Military service 1845-54.
All these records are free.
Jennifer