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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: iwccc on Saturday 30 December 17 01:41 GMT (UK)
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I am trying to find information about a cottage (with dirt floors) that we referred to as the coachman's cottage of Hannibal Macarthur's Mansion, The Vineyards or later Subiaco.
I believe the cottage was at what is now 44-46 Mary Parade, Rydalmere.
There is a lot of information about the Mansion but I cannot find information about this cottage.
The home was occupied by a family in the 1950/60's (maybe even before) and I believe that they were told to leave as it was condemned for living in. Any suggestions would be most helpful. thank you
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Have you contacted the Local Council?
Cando
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Some history...........
http://arc.parracity.nsw.gov.au/blog/2013/11/09/the-history-of-the-vineyard-and-subiaco-estate-rydalmere/
Essie
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Hello Cando, thanks for the suggestion. Can't do it yet as the Council is not answering. Will get onto it in the New Year. Thanks again and Happy New Year
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Hi Essie, Thanks for the suggestion. I have looked at this site but unfortunately it doesn't mention the coachman's cottage. I will try the local historical society and council as soon as they are all back at work in the New year. I appreciate your suggestion. Happy New Year.
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fingers crossed this link works.
http://digital.sl.nsw.gov.au/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=FL1765713&embedded=true&toolbar=false
NSW State Library, out of copyright photo, showing main house and a cottage too.
http://digital.sl.nsw.gov.au/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?embedded=true&toolbar=false&dps_pid=IE1765706
Title: Subiaco, Parramatta River near Parramatta
Copyright and permissions:
This image may be used freely for research and study purposes. Further use may require permission. Please acknowledge that the image is from the collections of the State Library of New South Wales.
Call number:
Government Printing Office 1 - 06145
ALSO, perhaps worth a phone call to RHEEM Australia to see if they have an archivist, or where they store their archives photos? http://www.rheem.com.au/ContactUs
JM
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I'm not sure exactly how to reference this article, but in the SMH Nov 26 1960, pg 13 there is an article about the imminent demolition of the cottage with a photograph. It shows "the Vineyard" and an "original house" built supposedly before 1800 - not sure if this is the cottage you refer to?
http://smharchives.smedia.com.au/Olive/APA/smharchive/Default.aspx#panel=search&search=2
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Thanks Majm, Unfortunately this is not the cottage I am researching. The coachman cottage was some distance away from Subiaco and also the other originally built cottage.
The cottage I am referring to was on land that is now 44/46 Mary Parade, Rydalmere.
We always knew it as the coachmans cottage of Hannibal Macarthur's Mansion (The. Vineyards or later Subiaco). As The Vineyards was a very large estate I can only assume that the cottage I am researching was part of the estate. It was certainly in the boundaries.
Thanks for your help - I remember touring Subiaco as a girl but I cannot say I ever saw the Mansion taken from the Parramatta River side. So the photograph is very interesting. Thanks
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Thanks maddys52, I cannot get into the site you suggested but I am assuming that it is in reference to the old original cottage built on the site. Later the mansion was built next to this (known as The Vineyards or later Subiaco).
The cottage I am seeking is what we called the coachman's cottage and it was on land that is now referred to as 44/46 Mary Parade, Rydalmere. This is quite a distance from the Mansion.
I appreciate your help.
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Great find Maddy.
I understand from a different thread that Ancestry has a lot of the SMH :) for some of the years 1955-2002. http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=781147.0
JM
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see attach (needs rotating)
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Thanks JM, unfortunately I don't think this is the cottage iwccc is after. I do recall in reading about Subiaco that the property was very large and incorporated a number of buildings over the large site, one of which I guess was the "coachman's cottage".
I'll have a look in some of my old heritage architecture books and journals to see if I can find anything further, though I think as cando suggested, the local Council is probably the best bet.
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Agree, back in early 2000s I spent several days at the Ptta Heritage Centre researching some of my ancestors. Very knowledgeable team at Council's heritage centre.
I have searched through the lpi's (oops, likely another re-naming as seems now it is land registry services) parish maps .... County of Cumberland, Field of Mars... and I can see that Mary Parade was there (and clearly no longer part of the Convent grounds) in the 1910 map, and may have been there in the 1890s.
1910 map is file name 24048401.jp2. EDIT .... no it's not. there's a typo. Correct file name is 14048401.jp2
http://images.maps.nsw.gov.au/pixel.htm#
JM
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Hello Maddys52, Thank you for your suggestions. I don't think this is the cottage I am after. It appears that this is the original cottage on the site before the mansion was built. the cottage I am looking for was the coachman's cottage which was quite a distance from the mansion/original cottage. Thanks again for your help. This newspaper article is still very helpful for my research.
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Hi majm, I have already contacted the Parramatta HeritageCentre - there researchers are currently on holidays and will seek to find information when they return. I am looking forward to what they might find. I couldn't access the map you suggest - kept getting lost in the site.
Somewhere there must be information about this old home. I'll keep looking. Thanks again
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I've checked through some old books and a thesis on Palladian Architecture in Australia that a friend wrote that has a chapter on Verge (the architect of Vineyards) that I have, but no luck in finding anything on the coachman's cottage. There is some mention of the stables at Vineyard, but nothing about what happened to them either.
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Thank you maddys52, You say there is a mention of stables. Does the book indicate where the stables may be? Near the house or ? I appreciate you searching . Regards
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Sorry, I should have said "barn and stables" but the references don't say where the ancillary buildings were in relation to the main house. These are the relevant quotes from Rachel Roxburgh's "Early Colonial Houses of NSW", Landsdowne Press, 1974
" Norwood House and its barn are reminiscent of the Vineyard, particularly the barn, the house being smaller and simpler than Vineyard House." (pg 460)
Norwood is at Goulburn, built by Francis McArthur - a relative of Hannibal - there is this further mention of the barn at Norwood:
"McArthur, writing to the Land Board in 1835, listed his buildings, including a brick barn, the existing one, 50 feet long and costing some £600." (pg 460)
"The guinea fowl roosted in the trees near the house, the peacock walked about magestically or screamed from the ridge of the stable roof." (quote from Emmeline - Hannibal Macarthur's daughter pg 557)
"When at last the Vineyard was put up for sale, Hannibal and Maria Macarthur went to live at Manar with the Gordons [Hannibal's daughter Mary and her husband Hugh Gordon]. Except for a few portraits, 'valueless except to us', the noble house, with its books and pictures and furniture, its gardens, fruit trees and stables, the woods where the moonlight the children had become familiar with the strange antipodean animals, all were sold - a loss not merely of a collection of objects, but of a rare entity: a home of charm and quality ..." pg 560
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There is a picture of the barn at Norwood here:
http://www.higginbotham.com.au/goulburn.html
(the 5th photo down from the top)
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In the 1880s the site of Vineyards/Subiaco was subdivided. There are a number of advertisements on Trove regarding the different subdivisions, you can get an idea of where they were by some of the street names - South St, "Victoria St" (presumably now Victoria Rd). Some of the advertisments eg:
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article13507777
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article28380422
and this one which includes a "cottage residence"
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article238477736
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Thanks maddys52, Very interesting reading. Appreciate your help
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Some years ago a lady gave me a drawing of a cottage in the grounds of the vineyard which she wanted to sell It was titled Vineyard cottage. I did sell it for her to an antique dealer who has a very old house in Hope Street Rydalmere. Somewhere I copied the drawing and will try to find it for you. How many cottages were on Vineyard I am not sure.
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Hi Shylie Brown , Thanks for looking. Hopefully you can find the copy.
I have lots of people who refer to the ORIGINAL house on The Vineyards (Subiaco) that stood behind (and next to) the Mansion. BUT the house I am looking for was quite a distance away in what is now 44/46 Mary Parade, Rydalmere. My brother and I remember it as a dirt floor house that had a lean to on one side and we only remember it being two rooms (possible more). It had an open hearth. In our time it had a corrugated roof which was probably over shingles. It would appear that it stood within the Vineyard estate - we knew it as the coachman's cottage (but this may or may not be right).
Thank you
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Fingers crossed :)
May I mention that back in the 1800s having 'dirt floors' were the usual way the outbuildings on many/most large land holdings and errr .... some outbuildings still stand that had 'dirt floors'. Where these buildings were used for living accommodation, then some households would place matting/rugs/carpet runners on the flooring. This was a remedy for keeping clothing clean (especially female clothing - petticoat hems, dress hems, apron hems etc) and had no bearing on avoiding illness from any diseases found in the soil.
Afterall, by the end of the 19th century, NSW cottages occupied for a generation or three or more ... by humans with dirt floors ... well those floors had effectively been stamped, levelled, and were 'lifeless' from the constant human occupation.
Council post WWII may well have condemned the building and required it to be demolished, but it would be the building's deteriorating structure rather than lack of floorboards. Is it possible the building was 'off its foundations' or perhaps had had no foundations .... Perhaps Rising damp etc ....
I am aware of some habitable cottages in rural NSW built back in the 1860s era that had 'dirt floors' and are still standing and still have their 'dirt floors', although they usually have rolled out the lino .... which if rolled up again will often give up old newspapers/cardboard etc.
JM
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Thank you majm, I did realise that many homes had dirt floors in this era. I only mentioned them as that is one of the things my brother and I remember of the house when we were children.
We remember that the cottage had (we seem to remember) only two rooms with an open hearth in one. Of course there could have been more rooms - we just don't remember them. It had a lean to on one side of the building with a cast iron bath outside the house with a pipe coming off the roof. The family who lived there used to slide down the roof (corrugated iron - probably over shingles). There was also a large shed/barn/stables in the yard.
We were told that the house had been condemned for living in by the council on a few occasions but that the family would/did not move out. This would probably be in the 1950/60's.
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Hi. I know this is a serious thread mine and you may be no longer following, but you can get a low-res aerial view of the house taken in 1943.
The Subiaco houses were demolished by Rheem in 1961. Your unlikely to find much information on the Coachmen's house, as no information or photos was kept on the cottage near the mansion that was the original 'Vineyard' built in 1792.
Anyway to get the image of the house,
1 Type 'six maps' into Google. It's a NSW Govt Lands site. (https://maps.six.nsw.gov.au/)
2 Enter the address in the top left search box. The current satellite view will come up. Zoom in. then
go to the top right box marked 'Base Maps'. You will see a mention of 1943 map, Click that and select 1943....you can alternate from there between 1943 and current.
You can use 'print screen' to save the images to notebook to save them.
One suggestion after you have found it, enter an address in another part of the suburb so the red marker isn't on top of your subject, then go back once you know where it is.
Cheers and good luck
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Hello Jmcclean, Wow! Thank you so much for this suggestion. I have been trying to find out about the Coachman cottage for many years. Historical Societies and other sites didn't want to acknowledge it existed but I knew it did as I grew up with the cottage with adjoining fences. The maps finally prove the building was where I said it was. It is a shame that we do not have a close up photo of the home but at least we know something was on this site. Your post was so appreciated thank you very much.
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I am glad it helped. It is good to be able to confirm something from the past that you know is correct.
Rydalmere has always been the poor relation to Parramatta with history groups showing little interest.
One last place you can try for a photo or information on the coach house, and the only ones likely to be able to help are the Nuns from the Benedictine Convent that owned it and lived there for 110 years.
After they sold Subiaco they moved to Pennant Hills for sometime, and then eventually to Jamberoo.
If they have anything in their archives, I am sure they would try to help.
https://www.jamberooabbey.org.au/
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Thanks again Jmcclean, I have written as you suggested - now have to wait to see if they can help. Your suggestions and help are Much appreciated. Regards