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General => Armed Forces => World War Two => Topic started by: Cootwife on Saturday 30 December 17 14:45 GMT (UK)
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I'm trying to identify this uniform, I've finally identified the person but I'm having problems with their service record, can anyone help? I can tell you that they were stationed in London, aged about 20, and they may also speak French.
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Unless she is wearing someone else's uniform, this very smart lady is serving with the Royal Artillery. Many served, not exclusively, in Searchlight and Anti-Aircraft regiments. Lots about it here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auxiliary_Territorial_Service. She should, I believe, be wearing her ATS uniform with Royal Artillery shoulder titles and the grenade badge above the pocket but perhaps there were variations, official or unofficial.
If you satisfy the conditions, you can apply for her records from MOD
https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-service-records Don't worry if you haven't got her service number/
MaxD
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Thanks Max, that is a big help, she survived the war by the way, but I don't know what happened next.
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Have you found a Marriage Entry for her?
Romilly.
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Good afternoon,
Is that a ww1 style uniform Max? Certainly not the same as my 2 aunts ww2 ATS uniforms.
John915
Added; it's also a mans uniform, buttons wrong way for womans uniform.
2nd added; ignore last, just checked aunts photos and online. ATS uniforms all appear to button same as men.
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John
It is indeed a WW1 pattern, the first line of my post and the caveats later were me hedging my bets! I rather trusted the date given for the photo and the knowledge that variations did occur.
No doubt whatsoever about Royal Artillery though.
MaxD
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When I first saw the photograph I thought the lady was posing in a loved ones uniform, I have a similar photo, however the jacket does look to be a good fit :-\
Is the general consensus that the lady is in her own uniform?
Frank.
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I do now have my doubts, admittedly prompted by John. All the pics of ATS with the Gunners I have been able to turn up have the uniform as described in the Wiki link (shoulder titles, grenade badge but ATS hat and cap badge. Pattern of the uniform not so decisive as many wore this pattern in the early WW2 days.
Cootwife - your take on whether she is wearing her own uniform would be valued.
MaxD
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The one thing which is niggling me, tho' I could just be being pedantic, is the cap looks to be a little on the large size, but that may just be due to the lady's hair style.
That said, they were not produced with women in mind I would have thought.
Frank.
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Good evening,
After some research I doubt this is her own uniform. When the ATS was started in 1938 they had their own design of service dress. But for normal work dress they wore the 1938 pattern BDs.
They also had their own pattern cap in two versions, the first had a soft peak with cloth strap. The second had a stiff peak with leather strap. The top was soft and small diameter not much larger than the band.
John915
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The more I look at it, the more I come to the same conclusion, that she is wearing a loved one's uniform. Like John and Frank, the head dress is what does it for me. Whatever their affiliation, I believe the women wore their own ATS head dress and not the man's cap as in the pic.
So my caveats and hedging in my first post should have been a bit more definite! My apologies!
Maxd
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My mother was in the ATS and that's not an ATS uniform so I agree with all who say it's a relative's or loved one's uniform she's wearing.
One point - I am an ex WRAF from late 1960s and parts of my uniform buttoned up the male side.
;)
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Good morning,
Apparently when the ATS uniform was designed it was made to button as a mans to accomodate medals and decorations. Like all womens clothing the tunics are tailored to fit the odd shape of womens upper bodies. ;D ;D ;D
This tunic is not shaped like that hence the tight fit. It is possibly a pre war uniform although some troops were initially issued these in early WW2. Not as early as WW1 though as no medal ribbons.
John915
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I can confirm the date as it is stamped on the back of the photo, 1941, I have only just identified the lady.
I should give some explanation, sorry this is long. My aunt sent me the family photos to scan. Many of them were clearly incorrectly labeled, I suspect by my aunt.
We have a large family my great-aunt Sarah the oldest was born in 1877 and the youngest was born in 1900; most went to Canada or the US in the 1910-1920s This young lady was labeled with the married surname of my great-aunt Alice, but clearly this was wrong.
Also I received a number of letters from my grandfather and other family members to my grandmother and my grandfather's address book. In these they talk about Dorothy and her brother and one aunt, Annie, in particular in Canada writes about her in a very familial way, which I thought was fairly odd. On searching my grandfathers address book (as it is clear he met her from the letters) I got the surname Manbre. Knowing the family were in Liverpool at the time I found Dorothy Manbre with the mothers maiden name as the correct one for my family. The birth certificate clearly shows that my aunt Annie was the mother but she was using her 'husband's' name. However:
I can find no marriage certificate
I can find no divorce
Annie went to Canada in 1926, married there and is given as single on her marriage certificate
Dorothy and her brother were not mentioned in Annie's obituary
It is clear that Dorothy had not met my grandfather before the early 1940s
Before anyone asks if I am certain that this is the correct Annie, she had a very distinctive middle name that she always used.
So the lady I know was 21 at the time of the photo, on the back it says 'to Tom fondest love Dorothy' with the date 30 September 1941. Tom (my grandfather, he died in 1942) was in the navy, her brother I know less about, I'm not sure, but at this point he had been in India for 4.5 years and I've just managed to confirm that he was with the Scottish Borderer's.
I am at an early point in my research as it has taken me in a direction I had not expected. My aunt knew nothing about any of this. She was not married and appears not to have married at least until after 1946.
So in short, I could have messed up but I don't think I have as I've been very careful, but I had a thought, this is her Uncle John, my great-uncle, he fought in WWI in the RGASR (it is marked as Roderick, Roddy, but if this is an Royal Artillery cap then this John), which answers two questions at once. John died in 1937.
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Good afternoon,
This is definately RA and like the other photo shows a 1902 pattern battledress, so WW1.
This uniform was in service until 1938 when it was replaced by the new 1938 pattern battledress. This is the style with baggy trousers and blouson style jacket. Due to the quantity needed some soldiers, in particular TA and "dads army" were initially issued with the 1902 pattern uniform. But this had gone completely by 1941, so the uniform in 1st picture predates the photo she is just dressed up in it.
I am unable to do links at the moment due to a fault on my laptop so can't show any photo's of ATS uniforms. However the jacket is similar to the mens SD version but shaped for the female upper body and flared to accomodate the hips better.
John915
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The RGASR is two abbreviations run into one. His regiment was the Royal Garrison Artillery RGA and he was a Special Reservist SR which meant he had joined pre-war on a part time basis. The SR men were mobilized in August 1914.
MaxD