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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Surrey => Topic started by: colee on Saturday 30 December 17 20:23 GMT (UK)
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Hi
I'm looking for the birth location of William Joseph Baldwin in 1894. His census entries for 1901 (address Stretton Rd) and 1911 (Alexandra Rd) list his birth as taking place in Croydon, but I'm not sure which parish this would be under so I can verify the Croydon info. His parents Joseph Baldwin and Harriet Clara Ollis married in Wandsworth in early 1893 but I guess it's certainly possible they moved to Croydon the following year. Any help for how I locate the church would be very helpful. I have already looked in a few registers - Addiscombe and St James.
Many thanks,
Emma
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This is a list of places in the Croydon district
Addington
Beddington
Coulsdon
Croydon
Merton
Mitcham
Morden
Penge
Sanderstead
Wallington
Woodmansterne
Could be any church in any of those.
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guess it would be most likely to be one nearest to Stretton Rd, if anyone is familiar with the churches in the area from the 1890s?
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The birth certificate will tell you where he was born.
The parish register entry only tells of his baptism.
As baptisms didn't always take place soon after birth, any address on baptism may be out of date?
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Birth reg: William Joseph Baldwin, mother's maiden name Ollis, Dec qtr 1893 Croydon vol 2a p242.
His 1988 death registration gives his birthdate as 18 October 1893.
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The birth certificate will tell you where he was born.
The parish register entry only tells of his baptism.
As baptisms didn't always take place soon after birth, any address on baptism may be out of date?
And, of course, there is no guarantee that he was baptised CofE.
Philip
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The reference details for the Mar qtr 1893 marriage do not (according to Marriage Locator) correspond to any of the parish churches on their database, so it may well be that theirs was a register office or non C of E (e.g. Catholic) marriage.
Definitely no guarantee that their children would have been baptised in the C of E or at all - I too am wondering why the focus is on the hard task of finding a (possibly non-existent) baptism record rather than the straightforward one of ordering the birth certificate.
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thank you all!
Yes maybe I should order the birth cert like you suggest, only i have 15 individuals to research, I'm doing this for a local 1914-18 commemorative project and not sure if we will get any expenses back..
By the way, which is the 1988 death registration - he died in october 1917.
many many thanks to all your help!
Emma
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Stretton Road would come under Addiscombe or possibly East Croydon.
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thank you all!
Yes maybe I should order the birth cert like you suggest, only i have 15 individuals to research, I'm doing this for a local 1914-18 commemorative project and not sure if we will get any expenses back..
By the way, which is the 1988 death registration - he died in october 1917.
many many thanks to all your help!
Emma
The 1939 register agrees with that birth and has him with the parents you gave, so has there been some confusion?
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In 1911 they were living in South Croydon.
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Gosh... yes I see.... maybe we are looking at 2 different people. The info from CWGC does in fact list his father as WJ rather than just J Baldwin, and his birth in Herne Hill. I need to see if I can find a WJ Baldwin born in Herne Hill.... thank you!!
Private
BALDWIN, WILLIAM JOSEPH
Service Number M/41827
Died 09/10/1919
Aged 23
Royal Army Service Corps
formerly
The Loyal North Lancashire Regiment
Son of W. J. Baldwin; husband of Martha Emily Poulter (formerly Baldwin), of 18, Engineer Rd., Woolwich, London. Born at Herne Hill, London.
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According to to his military records William Joseph Baldwin was still alive on 12.2.1918 The address given on that record is Alexandra Road, so I think you have the wrong death in October 1917. Next of kin given as father J Baldwin. William's occupation is given as Civil servant, same as in 1939.
William Joseph Baldwin
Age 22
Regiment Norfolk Regiment
Year 1918
Residence town Croydon
Residence county Surrey
Residence country England
Wo 363 - First World War Service Records 'Burnt Documents'
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yes sorry i didn't mean oct 1917 but oct 1919.
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ok and also the William Joseph I'm looking at wasn't in the Norfolk Regiment, but the Loyal North Lancs then cyclist corps and Royal Army Service Corps. So I think they might be different people.
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Possible for your William? 1901 RG13 Piece number 512 Folio 47 Page 17
12, Greenhundred Road, Camberwell
William Baldwin 26 Painters Labourer Deptford, Kent,
Elizabeth Baldwin 23 Stay Machinist Camberwell, Surrey
William J Baldwin 5 Camberwell, Surrey
Arthur Baldwin 0 Deptford, Kent
They are definitely different people - the Croydon one was still alive in 1939 and died in 1988.
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very possible.... brilliant! his army pension record seems to mention a younger brother Arthur William, and there is also a next of kin Agnes, not sure where she might fit in but I'll have a look around these family names.
thank you!
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This looks like his army records - images are on Ancestry
William Joseph Baldwin
Birth Date: abt 1899
Birth Place: Lambeth, Surrey, England
Marriage Date: 23 Jul 1917
Marriage Place: Woolwich
Martha Emily Huckfield Spouse
Ivy Doris Emily Baldwin Child
Regiments as you said. Although I can't see that he died - he was discharged 29. Sept 1919.
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The transcribed army record shows bc.1899 which is incorrect. He was 17years 7months on 12/1/1913 when he enlisted.
Annette
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The next of kin later crossed out is mother Agnes Baldwin and gives address in Herne Hill.
However, I believe this must be his stepmother rather than mother, as said Agnes' maiden name was Wilds and she appears to have married a Joseph Baldwin Sept.1902 Lambeth - shown as widow on next census at the address given on WJ's army record.
Agnes Wilds had an illegitimate daughter Winifred Daisy Wilds in Sept.1900 Wandsworth.
Having trouble with the birth entries for William J. Baldwin aged 5 and Arthur Baldwin 0 - army records says Arthur was an Arthur William - no Arthur William born 1900 in any area close to Deptford so no idea of his mmn name. Two possibilities for William Joseph Baldwin - June 1894 Lambeth mmn Childs or June 1895 Southwark mmn Reedy BUT the latter seems to be a child of an Edwin Baldwin and Clara Reedy married 1889.
If the 1901 census posted by groom is correct, I cannot find anything to substantiate any of it.
Annette
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Possible for your William? 1901 RG13 Piece number 512 Folio 47 Page 17
12, Greenhundred Road, Camberwell
William Baldwin 26 Painters Labourer Deptford, Kent,
Elizabeth Baldwin 23 Stay Machinist Camberwell, Surrey
William J Baldwin 5 Camberwell, Surrey
Arthur Baldwin 0 Deptford, Kent
If William was a printer's labourer rather than a painter's labourer, perhaps these are relevant baptisms? Though Arthur was older than the 8mo recorded in 1901.
St George, Camberwell
20 June 1899
Daisy Violet Baldwin born 8 Mar 1894 (poss death aged 7, Dec qtr 1901 Southwark)
William James Baldwin born 3 Sep 1895
Arthur Baldwin born 24 Apr 1898
Children of William (a bookbinder) and Elizabeth, of 31 Neate St.
Corresponding births are registered for each child in Camberwell with mmn Parrish.
Actually no, this is a different family - see next post
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False link made in my previous post. William Baldwin whose three children were baptised in 1899 is here in 1901:
17 Jane St, Southwark: RG13/359/76/14
[Boarding in the household of a Grosvenor family]
William Baldwin Wid 33 Bookseller Camberwell
Daisey do 7 Camberwell
William do 5 Camberwell
Arthur do 3 Camberwell
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There is a death listed as
William J Baldwin Dec quarter 1919 West Ham birth 1894
Martha remarried 1922 to Edward Poulter and has further children showing on 1939.
We've spent the last 5 years on a local project here in North Bucks and we've now covered 6 local villages. Some have left a real paper trail others appeared from nowhere. It's been a real experience.
Tazzie
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False link made in my previous post. William Baldwin whose three children were baptised in 1899 is here in 1901:
17 Jane St, Southwark: RG13/359/76/14
[Boarding in the household of a Grosvenor family]
William Baldwin Wid 33 Bookseller Camberwell
Daisey do 7 Camberwell
William do 5 Camberwell
Arthur do 3 Camberwell
This William seems to have remarried to (or at least got together with) an Emma Alice by the next census, and had son William James with him, so this family is definitely not the right one.
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The death in west ham in 1919 ties in with daughters birth also there earlier in 1919.
There is a possible marriage for the daughter in 1940 Woolwich
Tazzie
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All superb help thank you...
Annette, I think you are right about Agnes as the stepmother as the address match at Peabody Buildings is such a strong link. I am looking for a death for husband Joseph Baldwin between 1907 when child Louisa Baldwin was born and 1911 when according to the census she was widowed, but I haven't found it so far. Arthur doesn't seem to be around in 1911 either, maybe I'll find him at a different address.
Hugely appreciate the help, you really need multiple sets of eyes to unpick some of these families!
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Yes, Agnes is definitely the key to all of this. What a pity she doesn't have any stepsons with her in the census.
To get a fix on dates, these seem to be her youngest daughters' birth registrations:
Dorothy Nellie Baldwin, mmn Wildes, Mar qtr 1905 Lambeth
Jennie Louise Baldwin, mmn Wilds, Jun qtr 1906 Lambeth << this must be "Louisa"
Added: possibly also Elizabeth Agnes Baldwin, mmn Childs [sic], Sep qtr 1903 Lambeth?
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Interestingly Agnes claims to have been married for 5 years (though this info wasn't supposed to be given by widows).
Perhaps by this she meant that her husband died after 5 years of marriage. They married in Sep qtr 1902 (Lambeth).
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Death of Joseph Baldwin aged 37, Mar qtr 1907 Lambeth, looks possible?
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Just a couple of things I'm not sure we've picked up on the thread from William's army record:
William's religion was C of E (can't find a baptism though).
William's Yr Bro (presumably younger brother) Arthur William was said to be in the Army. I think it says Pte 39?* Wiltshire Regt.
*Not at all sure of this number.
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I have been hunting all day (sad fr christmas face, not sure how to insert them..) to not huge avail.. but have established a few things:
Of the younger daughters:
Winifred was born on 1 July 1900 in a Wandsworth workhouse to Agnes Wilds, admitted from Tooting.
When winifred married David Johnson in 1925 her address was Peabody Bldgs still, giving her father as the deceased Joseph Baldwin 'carman' - interesting but not necessarily fact.
Jenny Louise Baldwin married Henry C Lewis in 1938 in Lambeth, her birth is confirmed as 22 April 1906. In 1939 she is living with her new husband and parents in law at 12 Chancellor Grove, Lambeth.
Arthur William Baldwin:
I sought help on a WW1 forum, this entry came up but I'm yet to confirm his date and place of birth. It seems to be the right person, but was enlisted in 1911 which doesn't seem possible if he was born in 1900?!
looks like "1st Bn"?:
Name:Arthur William Baldwin
Military Year:1914-1920
Rank:Private
Medal Awarded:British War Medal and Victory Medal
Regiment or Corps:Duke of Edinburgh's (Wiltshire) Regiment
Regimental Number:8694
Previous Units:1st Wilts R. 8694 Pte
Dishcharged 1.1.17 N.L.P.F
8694 silver war badge enlisted 12 june 1911 discharged 1 jan 1917 cause of discharge wounds, badge issued 6 jan 1917
can anyone make any more of all of this?
happy new year!
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In order to make it clearer, can you tell us where you are starting from, is it just a name and date on a war memorial, if so where is it?
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So, this is the brother of William Joseph Baldwin who we are mainly looking at. But hoping that info on his younger brother Arthur might throw more light, ie confirm their birth dates which are being very elusive.
The military info was found on Ancestry/Findmypast by putting in the name. It was on William Joseph Baldwin's army pension records though that a crossed out entry for his brother as a next of kin gave a clue to his army regiment, ie Duke of Edinburgh's (Wiltshire) Regiment. But I can't seem to find any other of his records that might provide any birth or home address info.
sorry, is that any clearer? I tried to attach the extract with Arthur's regiment crossed out, but the file was too big to work.