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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: steadyrollingman on Sunday 31 December 17 17:00 GMT (UK)

Title: Durham placename help needed pls
Post by: steadyrollingman on Sunday 31 December 17 17:00 GMT (UK)
Despite having some decent local knowledge I'm having a bit of a struggle with an ancestor's place of birth on census forms (two of them) - my initial thought was it could be Carrshield, but pretty sure that has always been in Northumberland, it's not North or South Shields, and it certainly wouldn't be Galashiels. It's really just the third and poss fourth letter I need confirming, I think. It's halfway down the first pic, and just under the second entry for Northumberland on the second.
Have also searched for her birth records (Catherine Dixon, c1795) on Ancestry, Family Search and Freereg but nothing really matches there (except a 1797 birth in South Shields) but I think it's unlikely the enumerator would mishear the same thing 10 years apart. So any input would be gratefully received!
Title: Re: Durham placename help needed pls
Post by: stanmapstone on Sunday 31 December 17 17:14 GMT (UK)
but I think it's unlikely the enumerator would mishear the same thing 10 years apart. So any input would be gratefully received!

The enumerator did not fill in the schedule (except for two sections) it was filled in by or on behalf of the head of the family. It is a common myth that a census enumerator knocked on doors and asked who was present, and then wrote down the details, often miss-hearing, or miss-spelling. When the enumerator collected the schedules all he had to do was to to examine the schedule in order to satisfy himself that it had been correctly and completely filled up.

Stan
Title: Re: Durham placename help needed pls
Post by: steadyrollingman on Sunday 31 December 17 17:45 GMT (UK)
I thought 1911 was the first one that householders filled in themselves - otherwise how come all the handwriting is the same on earlier census pages?
Title: Re: Durham placename help needed pls
Post by: JenB on Sunday 31 December 17 17:49 GMT (UK)
Because on the earlier censuses the enumerator copied from the household schedules into his book. It is the latter which we see on all the censuses apart from the 1911. For all the other censuses the individual household schedules were destroyed.

Turning to your place-name, the only sensible thing I can make of it is Carsheil or Carshield, which, as you say, is in in Allendale, Northumberland.
Title: Re: Durham placename help needed pls
Post by: Roobarb on Sunday 31 December 17 17:53 GMT (UK)
If the householder was illiterate, who would fill in the household schedule on their behalf? Would that be the enumerator or would they have to find someone themselves to do it?
Title: Re: Durham placename help needed pls
Post by: steadyrollingman on Sunday 31 December 17 17:56 GMT (UK)
Ah, of course, that makes sense - I had wondered what a busy enumerator would do if there was no one home... I suppose then, I should be questioning whether his eyes would deceive him the same way 10 years apart, not his ears...
Title: Re: Durham placename help needed pls
Post by: heywood on Sunday 31 December 17 18:09 GMT (UK)

Have also searched for her birth records (Catherine Dixon, c1795) on Ancestry, Family Search and Freereg but nothing really matches there (except a 1797 birth in South Shields) but I think it's unlikely the enumerator would mishear the same thing 10 years apart. So any input would be gratefully received!

Hello,
I looked up what I thought was your query and found Mary Temple, wife of Edward Temple, with those place names. Then I read your post more thoroughly and see you have Catherine Dixon. :-\
What I was going to suggest is to check the marriage record to see if there were any clues.

Heywood
Title: Re: Durham placename help needed pls
Post by: JenB on Sunday 31 December 17 18:11 GMT (UK)
I suppose then, I should be questioning whether his eyes would deceive him the same way 10 years apart, not his ears...

The similarity between the two place-names is too coincidental.

My suggestion, for what it's worth is that Carrshield, Northumberland, isn't ever so from the County Durham boundary. Perhaps her husband (if that's who the head of household was and filled in the form) thought it was in County Durham  :-\

Where is she living in 1841 and what does it show for her birthplace?
Title: Re: Durham placename help needed pls
Post by: steadyrollingman on Sunday 31 December 17 18:18 GMT (UK)
Thanks for all the effort, everyone! Yes, I know it's Mary on the census, but my research has left me convinced that must be a middle name or something as the only wife of an Edward Temple that ties in with these details is Catherine Dixon - marriage is here: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MQBW-HDL
(This is also backed up by parish records for baptisms of her children, and I have subsequently seen that other people on Ancestry have her in their trees - I'm always sceptical of other people's unless they tie in with mine   ;)
Just a shame I can't quite find HER baptism records...

Title: Re: Durham placename help needed pls
Post by: steadyrollingman on Sunday 31 December 17 18:22 GMT (UK)

[/quote]

The similarity between the two place-names is too coincidental.

My suggestion, for what it's worth is that Carrshield, Northumberland, isn't ever so from the County Durham boundary. Perhaps her husband (if that's who the head of household was and filled in the form) thought it was in County Durham  :-\

Where is she living in 1841 and what does it show for her birthplace?
[/quote]

Could be, could be, but I just can't quite see how that third letter looks like 'rr' though. In 41 they were living in Elemore Vale, Pittington (Durham), but on that census it's obv just listed as Durham only...
Title: Re: Durham placename help needed pls
Post by: stanmapstone on Sunday 31 December 17 18:40 GMT (UK)
If the householder was illiterate, who would fill in the household schedule on their behalf? Would that be the enumerator or would they have to find someone themselves to do it?

Illiteracy was not as widespread as is commonly thought. Thanks to the growth in freelance schooling, all privately financed, literacy levels had risen to about 92 per cent by 1870 and Forster's Education Act.
It was also the custom for local clergy to assist in completing the forms in the week before the census, and there was also usually a neighbour who could help.
However if the householder could not fill in the schedule, perhaps because he or she was illiterate, the enumerator was to fill it in for them by asking the relevant questions on the doorstep. How many schedules had to be completed in this manner varied from district to district. In 1871 enumerators were asked to record the number of schedules they filled in themselves. In parts of Manchester 25 per cent had to be completed in this manner; in Colyton in Devon the proportion was 7 per cent; and in Christ Church, Spitalfields, the proportion was 15 per cent. In some Welsh-speaking parishes in Anglesey, however, the majority were filled in by the enumerators.
Just to add from the Enumerators Instructions
If, on enquiry for the Schedule, it is delivered to him not filled up, he must fill it up himself, asking all the necessary questions. He should if possible, see the head of the family for that purpose, and obtain the information from him. In the abscence of the Occupier, any other member of the family possessing the requisite intelligence, may supply the necessary particulars.


Stan
Title: Re: Durham placename help needed pls
Post by: JenB on Sunday 31 December 17 19:26 GMT (UK)
Thanks for all the effort, everyone! Yes, I know it's Mary on the census, but my research has left me convinced that must be a middle name or something as the only wife of an Edward Temple that ties in with these details is Catherine Dixon - marriage is here: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MQBW-HDL
(This is also backed up by parish records for baptisms of her children, and I have subsequently seen that other people on Ancestry have her in their trees - I'm always sceptical of other people's unless they tie in with mine   ;)
Just a shame I can't quite find HER baptism records...

I wonder if Catherine might have been Edward's first wife?

There is a marriage in in 1834 between Edward Temple and a Mary Hopper. Worth investigating?
Title: Re: Durham placename help needed pls
Post by: heywood on Sunday 31 December 17 19:28 GMT (UK)
Was just going to post similar.
There is a death for Catherine Temple, Elemore Vale in 1833 birth abt 1793.
Title: Re: Durham placename help needed pls
Post by: steadyrollingman on Sunday 31 December 17 19:45 GMT (UK)
Oh, fantastic! (In a very sad way, obv... :'() Well, as her last child was born in 1831, that certainly ties in with all the baptism records - I'm onto it! What a shame it's just before marriage certificate time, grrr... Thanks very much for this, will let you know how I get on. Must admit, I was never 100% comfortable with the idea of her using another name - and of course, if this is right, means the whole Carrshield debate is effectively a moot point, which is a relief...
Title: Re: Durham placename help needed pls
Post by: Roobarb on Sunday 31 December 17 19:46 GMT (UK)
Stan, thank you for the very interesting information.  :)
Title: Re: Durham placename help needed pls
Post by: heywood on Sunday 31 December 17 19:51 GMT (UK)
I know you don’t need Mary now but Hopper might have been her married name.

1841 shows Ann Hopper 17 yrs in the same household.
Title: Re: Durham placename help needed pls
Post by: JenB on Sunday 31 December 17 19:52 GMT (UK)
Oh, fantastic! (In a very sad way, obv... :'() Well, as her last child was born in 1831, that certainly ties in with all the baptism records - I'm onto it! What a shame it's just before marriage certificate time, grrr... Thanks very much for this, will let you know how I get on. Must admit, I was never 100% comfortable with the idea of her using another name - and of course, if this is right, means the whole Carrshield debate is effectively a moot point, which is a relief...

You need to check this through carefully.
The 1834 marriage of Edward and Mary on freereg indicates he was a bachelor not a widower.
Title: Re: Durham placename help needed pls
Post by: steadyrollingman on Sunday 31 December 17 20:03 GMT (UK)
Oh, fantastic! (In a very sad way, obv... :'() Well, as her last child was born in 1831, that certainly ties in with all the baptism records - I'm onto it! What a shame it's just before marriage certificate time, grrr... Thanks very much for this, will let you know how I get on. Must admit, I was never 100% comfortable with the idea of her using another name - and of course, if this is right, means the whole Carrshield debate is effectively a moot point, which is a relief...

You need to check this through carefully.
The 1834 marriage of Edward and Mary on freereg indicates he was a bachelor not a widower.

I was just about to mention that...
Also, the only reference I can find of this is here: https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_records/5817cff3e93790eb7f9dab3d?search_id=5a4941bef4040b8c50ad5c31&ucf=false
Doesn't come up at all on Ancestry or FS and I'm being quite vague with the parameters...
Title: Re: Durham placename help needed pls
Post by: steadyrollingman on Sunday 31 December 17 20:09 GMT (UK)
I know you don’t need Mary now but Hopper might have been her married name.

1841 shows Ann Hopper 17 yrs in the same household.

That's a great spot, thanks - had forgotten about that as it's on the next page... But what does F S (?) mean in the trade or profession section? Bit frustrating there was nowhere to write 'stepdaughter', but it certainly looks that way, despite the 'bachelor' problem. He had a son called Edward but would have been 15 in 41.
EDIT - badly worded, the son would have been 22 in 41, but 15 at time of marriage. And of course there's no reason she'd have still been called Hopper...
Title: Re: Durham placename help needed pls
Post by: JenB on Sunday 31 December 17 20:12 GMT (UK)
F.S is Female servant.
Title: Re: Durham placename help needed pls
Post by: steadyrollingman on Sunday 31 December 17 20:16 GMT (UK)
Thanks Jen, the plot thickens...
Title: Re: Durham placename help needed pls
Post by: JenB on Sunday 31 December 17 20:18 GMT (UK)
You need to check this through carefully.
The 1834 marriage of Edward and Mary on freereg indicates he was a bachelor not a widower.

BUT...I just took a look at this marriage on the Durham Bshops Transcripts and the words bachelor and spinster aren’t mentioned. I suspect that this might well have been an assumption on the part of the freereg transcriber.
Title: Re: Durham placename help needed pls
Post by: steadyrollingman on Sunday 31 December 17 20:27 GMT (UK)
Ha, great, I was just about to start the laborious trawl through those, so I'll leave that to another time. Whether or not he married a Mary Hopper is good to know but not vital to my tree - now I know I'm looking for a Catherine Dixon who wasn't born in Ca**shield, I have more pressing matters to explore!
Title: Re: Durham placename help needed pls
Post by: steadyrollingman on Sunday 31 December 17 20:44 GMT (UK)
Was just going to post similar.
There is a death for Catherine Temple, Elemore Vale in 1833 birth abt 1793.

Thanks for this, pretty sure that's her. I also discovered via Freereg that her daughter of the same name died a few months earlier - hadn't found any of this on Ancestry or FS previously despite searching for her/them and I tend to forget to check elsewhere if nothing comes up on those...
Title: Re: Durham placename help needed pls
Post by: heywood on Sunday 31 December 17 20:52 GMT (UK)
Yes I forgot to mention that, sorry. I saw them in Durham Online indexes.
Title: Re: Durham placename help needed pls
Post by: JenB on Sunday 31 December 17 21:04 GMT (UK)
Yes I forgot to mention that, sorry. I saw them in Durham Online indexes.

Durham Records Online is a very good source, and quite a lot of useful information can be gleaned from creative use of the free index.
Check ‘What we offer’ for their coverage of parish records.
Title: Re: Durham placename help needed pls
Post by: steadyrollingman on Sunday 31 December 17 21:06 GMT (UK)
Yes I forgot to mention that, sorry. I saw them in Durham Online indexes.

No probs, I can't expect you to do ALL of my research... :P
Title: Re: Durham placename help needed pls
Post by: steadyrollingman on Sunday 31 December 17 21:09 GMT (UK)
Yes I forgot to mention that, sorry. I saw them in Durham Online indexes.

Durham Records Online is a very good source, and quite a lot of useful information can be gleaned from creative use of the free index.
Check ‘What we offer’ for their coverage of parish records.

Yes, have used them quite a lot previously, but again, I often forget to try them if there are no hits on the main sites. I really should make a checklist of sites to go through to make sure no one gets left out if at all possible...
Title: Re: Durham placename help needed pls
Post by: steadyrollingman on Tuesday 30 January 18 15:44 GMT (UK)
For those who like neat endings, I had a chance to check the parish register entries and the use of 'bachelor' and 'spinster' on Freereg does seem to have been an uneducated guess as they're certainly not on the originals. That said, I have found a Freereg entry for a Mary Hopper with an illegitimate daughter Ann of the right age, baptised in 1823, so she actually was a spinster - that was in Stanhope parish, which is certainly on the way to Carrshield, if not in the same parish. Anyway, she's not important to my tree, so we can close this one off now, thanks for the help everyone!  :)
Title: Re: Durham placename help needed pls
Post by: JenB on Tuesday 30 January 18 15:48 GMT (UK)
the use of 'bachelor' and 'spinster' on Freereg does seem to have been an uneducated guess as they're certainly not on the originals.

That's poor, because they are only supposed to transcribe what they see on the record  :-\
Title: Re: Durham placename help needed pls
Post by: steadyrollingman on Tuesday 30 January 18 15:54 GMT (UK)
It has made me decide I need to confirm as many of my entries as poss with the original texts, so hopefully some good has come out of it...