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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Wexford => Topic started by: RChatUser1 on Monday 01 January 18 16:34 GMT (UK)
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I am trying to establish whether Elizabeth Pierce, born 1843/1844 in Wexford, was a member of the Pierce family that founded the Pierce Ironworks Foundry.
I have found lots of information about James Pierce (born 1813) and his sons Martin, Phillip and John, and have found probable daughters Joanna (born 6.10.1844) and Mary (born 5.4.1848), but can not find any record of a daughter Elizabeth.
The Elizabeth Pierce that I am researching married George Evans Hughes in Birkenhead, Merseyside in JAS1885 - Hughes family hearsay says that Elizabeth is linked to the Pierce Ironworks Foundry, but I cannot prove that at present.
I would be very grateful if any of you knowledgeable historical researchers on this forum could help me.
Many Thanks,
Brian in Merseyside.
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IF they were RC you could check church registers.
https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0610 is Wexford Town, other Parishes via map.
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Welcome to rootschat
Is this the marriage you mean (I can't see a marriage of a George Evans Hughes on the index) :-\
HUGHES George
PEERS Eliza
Tranmere, St Paul Wirral
Sept qtr 1885
HUGHES George
PEERS Eliza
Birkenhead 8a 709
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The Elizabeth Pierce that I am researching married George Evans Hughes in Birkenhead, Merseyside in JAS1885
Hi Brian,
Welcome to RootsChat :)
The marriage you have for Elizabeth would this be the correct one? -
Eliza Peers
q3 1885 Birkenhead
Vol 8a Page 709
On the same page is a George Hughes.
If this is the correct record then Eliza cannot be Elizabeth Pierce born 1843/1844. As the marriage cert records her age as 20 and her father's name is John Peers, labourer.
JJ
Added - I see we have a similar idea Rosie :)
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Possible baptism? -
Elizabeth Pierce
Birth Date - 1844
Baptism - 9 Feb 1844, Enniscorthy, Wexford, Ireland
Diocese - Ferns
Father - Frank Pierce
Mother - Nancy Hinck
JJ
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To Hallmark - many thanks for that link - I wasn't aware that those records were available online.
To JJen and to Rosie - yes, that is the marriage record that I have - vol 8A Page 709.
JJen - I haven't seen the marriage certificate, but what you say throws a large spanner in the works (and I don't mean the Engineering Works).
I must have the wrong marriage because the 1891 and 1901 Censuses both show George Hughes, his wife Elizabeth (they are both aged 47 in 1891 and 57 in 1901) and the correct descendants in Liverpool.
The 1911 Census shows Elizabeth aged 67 with the correct children and she has been married for 29 years, which puts the marriage in about 1882.
I assumed that the Eliza Peers who married in 1885 was Elizabeth Pierce, but it looks as if I was wrong.
Many thanks for looking up the marriage certificate - sorry for my mistake.
JJen - thanks for the recent post - that Elizabeth is a potential match, and I have seen a couple of other potential matches, but none matches the strong hearsay link to the Pierce Ironworks.
Brian.
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Can I just say that I am amazed by the brilliant response from rootschat.com members and moderators - many many thanks.
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There is one in registers on right page, 2nd last entry
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634138#page/82/mode/1up BUT there may be more!!
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You have found lots of information about James Pierce (born 1813) and his sons Martin, Phillip and John...so who was their mother??
Having been established in 1839 by James Pierce (1813-68), the Pierce Ironworks Foundry was subsequently developed by the Pierce brothers Philip (1850-95), Martin (d. 1907) and John (d. 1926)...
A check of the Registers should show if they had Furlong mother or not....as per Elizabeth I posted
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If she wasn't a sibling, then maybe a cousin....all you can do is study the Registers going back in time.
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Would this be the Hughes family on the 1901? -
George Hughes 57
Elizabeth Hughes 57
Joseph Hughes 16
George Hughes 14
Evan Hughes 11
Lilian J Hughes 7
RG13 Piece 3443 Folio 13 Page 17
Do you have the birth certs for any of the above to confirm their mother's maiden name of Pierce?
This would appear to be Lilian's birth but her mother's maiden name is Killean.
Lily Jane Hughes
q4 1893, West Derby
Vol 8b Page 448
Mother's maiden name - Killean
Sorry to put yet another possible spanner in the works but it's always best to check the facts :)
JJ
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Glad you posted that JJ.
I found Evan with mmn Pierce but couldn’t find Joseph. There is a Joseph with mmn Killien though.
(I wrote wrong spelling at first, sorry)
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I can’t see a likely marriage and the couple are quite old for a young family. I wonder if there is a previous marriage.
There is a possibility for George in 1881 3585/83/49
He is single but is a Railway Inspector not a Millwright :-\
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This could be George's birth record but his mother's maiden name is Pierce
George Hughes
q3 1887 West Derby
Vol 8b Page 423
Very odd that two of the children's birth record shows Pierce and the other two Killean/Killien. Could it be that Elizabeth was a Pierce but married a Killean/Killien and therefore her married name was used to register two of the births instead of her maiden name. :-\
JJ
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At first I thought Joseph who seems to be the oldest child was George’s from a previous marriage until you found Lillian.
George and Elizabeth are together in 1891 with one Kill*n child and two Pierce. Then Lillian is born when Elizabeth is 50ish :-\
Perhaps Joseph is Elizabeth’s child; the next two from George ; the couple get together abt 1891 and then have Lillian together.
Brian says though that there is family knowledge/belief re Elizabeth Pierce
It’s a mystery but interesting. :)
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Thanks for the posts everyone.
To JJen - yes that's the correct Hughes family in 1901, and I do have the birth cert of Evan Hughes which states that his mother's name was 'Elizabeth Hughes formerly Pierce', and the birth address is 94 Hood Street, Bootle, the same as the 1891 Census street address.
I have to admit that I didn't check the GRO until you posted your message, and so did not know about the Killean references - sorry again for not checking my facts properly.
I don't understand the Killean link - needs further thought.
To Heywood - yes I believe that is the correct George Hughes in 1881 lodging in Birkenhead and working as a Railway Inspector.
To Hallmark - regarding the Pierce family, I think that James Pierce married Mary Ann Murphy - his Probate record gives his wife's name as Mary Ann, their son John's birth record shows her maiden name as Murkley (sic), and James Pierce and Mary Ann Murphy are the parents of Joanna born 6.10.1844, Mary born 5.4.1848 and Phillip born 14.4.1846). Of course there could be a James Pierce that married Mary Ann Murphy and another that married Mary Ann (surname unknown).
I've only been researching the Pierce family for a couple of days, and have found baptism records and family members in 1901 and 1911 - James' sons Martin who married Mary, and John (described as Foundry Proprietor) who married Susan -and they are in the right locations (Maudlintown and Ballyboggan).
I was hoping that there might be some source local to Wexford, or some expert in Wexford, that could shed more light on the Pierce family, in order to determine if there was a child called Elizabeth born around 1843/1844.
Thanks again for all your efforts on my behalf.
Brian.
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The Pierce family seem very interesting :)
At first I thought there were some discrepancies - children born in 1840s then children born in 1860s but will and death references seem to support this.
Then John is Church of Ireland according to the census and Martin is Catholic but I suppose that happens.
There are two more sisters living with Johanna
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Wexford/Wexford_Rural/Maudlintown/1804554/
Johanna died 1918
Alice died 1934
Annie died 1935
As there are some differences though re the Hughes’ births and, at the moment,no marriage between George and Elizabeth it would perhaps be best to compare the birth information re Elizabeth and her surname.
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"...regarding the Pierce family, I think that James Pierce married Mary Ann Murphy - his Probate record gives his wife's name as Mary Ann, their son John's birth record shows her maiden name as Murkley (sic), and James Pierce and Mary Ann Murphy are the parents of Joanna born 6.10.1844, Mary born 5.4.1848 and Phillip born 14.4.1846)...."
I didn't know that.
A search of Registers should get their details and any children.
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I had another look for you Brian.
You can search here https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0610 I think you have already done that but this is the information found.
Marriage
October 1842 James Pierce and Mary Ann Murphy
Baptisms with those parents
Joanna Pierce. 27th October 1844
Philip Pierce 15th April 1846
Mary Pierce 6th April 1848
Alice Pierce 26th January 1852
Anne Pierce 3rd April 1855
Anne Pierce 16th September 1856
Martin 6th March 1858
James Pierce 24th December 1859
Alice Pierce 25th April 1862
John Pierce 6th June 1864
Looking at dates, there is a possibility that there could be a birth between marriage and Joanna’s birth but I can’t see a baptism, can you?
Hallmark found an Elizabeth but she had a Furlong mother and there are other baptisms to James Pierce and Elizabeth Furlong so it is unlikely that it is the same James Pierce.
Elizabeth Hughes shows Wexford as her place of birth in 1911 but this may be county rather than parish.
Presumably, as it is a family story, there must have been knowledge though of the Pierce business :-\
Was the information handed down?
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To Heywood - many thanks for that latest post about the Pierces.
The birth/baptism dates for Martin, Phillip and John are similar to those that are at
http://www.buildingsofireland.ie/niah/highlights.jsp?county=WX&list=true
so I do think it is the correct family for the Pierce Ironworks.
No, I cannot find a baptism of Elizabeth with father James, but it may be in another patish becasue the 1911 Census does give her place of birth as Co.Wexford.
I wonder if, as you say, Elizabeth was born in another part of Wexford soon after the marriage, before Joanne.
Does the marriage record that you found have any location attached to it ?
I do have another family member, aged 75, who I am trying to contact - hopefully I'll have some success there.
I'll look further into those additional family members that you found in the parish registers.
Thanks again,
Brian.
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No place given re the marriage but it is the same parish.
Online sources, if I recall, state that the company was founded in 1838 so presumably the family were in the same place.
I am inclined to think that Elizabeth was not of this family but you have to keep an open mind.
There is the matter of their wealth and status; no obvious marriage yet and the two surnames in the birth references which are puzzling.
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To Heywood - thanks for that.
I agree - it is looking increasingly unlikely that Elizabeth was of this family.
I'll see if I get find out more about the Pierce connection at this end.
Regards,
Brian.
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Three comments and a question.
1. I am pretty sure that you are all trying to reinvent the wheel here, in that I believe that there are several published accounts of this family.
2. I think you are probably misinterpreting a claim to be related to this family. You seem to think it means directly descended from James of 1813. I think it means simply related - and in those days that could mean 1st or second cousin. For what it is worth, the Pierces in my line were also claimed to be related.
3. You should remember that the family were originally from Kilmore, not Wexford town.
4. A question: what does Elizabeth's marriage cert say - it should have father's name and occupation, and would be my starting place. If you don't have it, then I would concentrate on finding it. Some of the other searches/work does not make much sense without it (could be large waste of time!).
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Thanks, Wexflyer, for your interest in this issue, and for your observations.
One of my original intentions was to find some published account of the Pierce family that might mention an Elizabeth Pierce, but I have had no luck so far.
I am trying to get hold of the marriage certificate of Elizabeth to George Evans Hughes, or indeed any record of the marriage.
A relative that I have contacted claims to have had that marriage certificate (they said that the marriage took place in Shropshire) and passed it onto another family member some years ago, and I've recently emailed descendants in France who might know its whereabouts.
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Three comments and a question.
1. I am pretty sure that you are all trying to reinvent the wheel here, in that I believe that there are several published accounts of this family.
2. I think you are probably misinterpreting a claim to be related to this family. You seem to think it means directly descended from James of 1813. I think it means simply related - and in those days that could mean 1st or second cousin. For what it is worth, the Pierces in my line were also claimed to be related.
3. You should remember that the family were originally from Kilmore, not Wexford town.
4. A question: what does Elizabeth's marriage cert say - it should have father's name and occupation, and would be my starting place. If you don't have it, then I would concentrate on finding it. Some of the other searches/work does not make much sense without it (could be large waste of time!).
1)Yes indeed there are published accounts and very interesting as I remarked. In this case, I wasn’t trying to reinvent anything just help the OP in finding records which may prove/disprove family claims.
2) I agree with you, Wexflyer, that family claims are not always what they seem and may not be a direct line. Hence the searches to aid Brian. I have mentioned that I do not think Elizabeth is of that family.
Hallmark suggested the cousin relationship in reply #9 and perhaps the only way to find out is through registers rather than published accounts which don’t give so much detail.
3)James Pierce seems to have moved from Kilmore to Wexford to establish his family and his company. That is in one account online but perhaps Wexflyer may have other information about the Kilmore Pierces.
4) As you will have read, Wexflyer, the marriage cannot yet be found despite concentrated efforts from Rootschatters.
We are now waiting to see if Brian’s relative has some information.
Regards
Heywood
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Details on the noted architect Richard Pierce, brother of James. He built the "twin churches" in Wexford, and several more besides. Agent for Pugin in Ireland.
http://www.dia.ie/architects/view/4357/PIERCE-RICHARD%5B1%5D (http://www.dia.ie/architects/view/4357/PIERCE-RICHARD%5B1%5D)
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1)Yes indeed there are published accounts and very interesting as I remarked. In this case, I wasn’t trying to reinvent anything just help the OP in finding records which may prove/disprove family claims.
Everyone on here is invariably trying to be helpful. This query, though, has led to a lot of confusion, so my own personal attitude would be that I would not have spent the effort (and it does take effort, I know), to make that list of children of James Pierce, until things became more clear. In particular, I think the OP would be well advised to trace his own family back without reference to the foundry family, while simultaneously researching what has been published on that family. The risk here is clearly that of a forced connection.
2) I agree with you, Wexflyer, that family claims are not always what they seem and may not be a direct line. Hence the searches to aid Brian. I have mentioned that I do not think Elizabeth is of that family.
Hallmark suggested the cousin relationship in reply #9 and perhaps the only way to find out is through registers rather than published accounts which don’t give so much detail.
I agree with both of you - I was just stating my own thoughts. It is a point that bears reinforcing though. The OP would already know if he were really a direct descendant of the foundry family! They lived in mansions, were rich etc. [ I think their principal house, Park House, was for sale last year?]. On the other hand, these family traditions almost always have some basis in fact, so the conclusion would be that they are probably distant relatives.
3)James Pierce seems to have moved from Kilmore to Wexford to establish his family and his company. That is in one account online but perhaps Wexflyer may have other information about the Kilmore Pierces.
That the family was from Kilmore was always the family tradition, and I would not doubt it. James was a blacksmith who moved to the town. I don't know of any documentation for the family in Kilmore - there are significant gaps in the Kilmore parish registers.
4) As you will have read, Wexflyer, the marriage cannot yet be found despite concentrated efforts from Rootschatters.
I understand. But IMHO finding the marriage is the essential key to progress. Without the marriage info lots of potential fits become just conjecture - witness the confusion in this thread. I would not waste too much time on other aspects if I were the OP, but focus on this.
Hope that is not too preachy, but I think we have all seen a lot of wasted effort over the years, and I personally like to be efficient!
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Hi Wexflyer,
You did come across as critical, rather than preachy but probably, like me, you don’t want the wrong information being followed :)
Just to say, it was no bother to find the list of children and that was, in my mind, to explicitly show the likelihood that there is no Elizabeth and unlikely that there would be.
Without a marriage, it is difficult to trace her back and at the moment there is no marriage plus the difficulty of the two surnames in birth records. I don’t think there is ‘confusion in the thread’ but apologise to the OP if I have caused this.
I do like to be as thorough as possible and helpful. I have tried to point out, perhaps you see this as inefficient, to show that Elizabeth is not of that direct Pierce family. I enjoyed reading about them as a sidetrack, I suppose, but no matter, one can see how possible stories and rumour evolve.
My ways help me me just as yours, I am sure, help you - that’s the way of of Rootschat :)
Thank you for your comments - they are useful and I might try to be more efficient - perhaps a bit too late though. ;)
Regards
Heywood
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Possible marriage of Elizabeth Killeen to George Evans,
March quarter, 1885, Liverpool 8b 201
I have a strong hunch thar this is the "missing" marriage, or at least the marriage of the parents for some of the births mentioned above.
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Possible marriage of Elizabeth Killeen to George Evans,
March quarter, 1885, Liverpool 8b 201
I have a strong hunch thar this is the "missing" marriage.
Unfortunately George Evans married Lydia Smith and Elizabeth Killeen married William J Carroll.
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Possible marriage of Elizabeth Killeen to George Evans,
March quarter, 1885, Liverpool 8b 201
I have a strong hunch thar this is the "missing" marriage.
Unfortunately George Evans married Lydia Smith and Elizabeth Killeen married William J Carroll.
You win some, you lose some.
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I am trying to establish whether Elizabeth Pierce, born 1843/1844 in Wexford, was a member of the Pierce family that founded the Pierce Ironworks Foundry.
I have found lots of information about James Pierce (born 1813) and his sons Martin, Phillip and John, and have found probable daughters Joanna (born 6.10.1844) and Mary (born 5.4.1848), but can not find any record of a daughter Elizabeth.
The Elizabeth Pierce that I am researching married George Evans Hughes in Birkenhead, Merseyside in JAS1885 - Hughes family hearsay says that Elizabeth is linked to the Pierce Ironworks Foundry, but I cannot prove that at present.
I would be very grateful if any of you knowledgeable historical researchers on this forum could help me.
Many Thanks,
Brian in Merseyside.
This is my first post here. I came at the recommendation of a DNA match who is descended from the Foundry Pierces. I have six or seven DNA matches to their descendants.
My Pierces were Michael Pierce, who married Catherine Rochford in Kilmore. They had four daughters and the last one was Elizabeth, born in 1846. One of the girls had James and Catherine Pierce as godparents, and I'm wondering if these were the Foundry siblings.
By 1850, though, Catherine and the older three girls are living in NJ and Michael and Elizabeth are never seen again. I can only speculate about what became of them.
Pam