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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Down => Topic started by: usaPetticrew on Wednesday 03 January 18 13:02 GMT (UK)
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There is a marriage record for John Pettigrew and Agnes Gray in the Church of Ireland Parish Church, Bangor on the 27th June 1863. John was listed as a widower, so married before. John’s father was listed as Thomas Pettigrew and Agnes’ father as James Gray. Who were the wives of Thomas Pettigrew and James Gray?
Are there birth records for John and Agnes? I couldn't find John in the 1901 or 1911 census, to get an estimate of birthyear for him.
In the 1901 census, Agnes Pettigrew is listed in Bangor, as head of household, age 65, married, but husband John is absent. Where is John?
In the 1911 census, Agnes Pettigrew is listed in Bangor, as mother-in-law, age 79, widow.
So, Agnes' birth was c. 1832-1836. Since John was married once before his 1863 marriage to Agnes Gray, I think we can assume he was older than a usual early 20s at that second marriage. Unconfirmed family lore is that John had children by his first wife, some who migrated to Australia. Is there a record of this first marriage? Are there birth records for the children?
John and Agnes had several children:
- Charlotte, born 22nd May 1865; m. Frank McConkey, carpenter.
- Thomas James, 14th February 1867; emigrated c. 1887 to America (New York City.)
- William John, 8th April 1869, emigrated c. 1887 to America (Scranton, Pennsylvania.)
- Agnes, 6th September 1872; m. George Carson, grocer.
- Daniel, 12th of July 1874, emigrated c. 1891 to America (Minneapolis, Minnesota.)
These children are all well-documented. William John and Daniel died in America. Thomas James returned to Bangor after 1935 and died there 1945. The sisters and their families lived and died in Co. Down.
Back to their father, John. A John Petticrew appears in several street directories, for Bangor:
1852, as John Petticrew, publican, Quay St.
1864, as John Petticrew, carter, Quay St. (same in 1865, 1870)
On son Daniel's 1874 birth record, John is listed as a farmer.
On daughter Agnes' 1906 marriage record, John is listed as a contractor.
In Griffith's Valuation, 1863, there are three listings for a John Pettigrew in Bangor. It records John as having three registered pieces of land; i) a placename Fisher’s Hill, Townland of Corporation, Bangor, a holding of a quarry, ii) also at Fisher’s Hill, ruins and garden, and iii) at Quay Street, a House, Office and Yard.
For John's father Thomas, I could find no other records in Bangor besides his name in the marriage record for John and Agnes. He does not appear in Bangor in street directories or the GV. In GV, there are Thomas Pettigrews listed for town/lands, Drumbeg, Saintfield, Comber, and Newtownards. I can't determine if any of these are John's father.
If you can offer any help in finding information about John or Thomas Pettigrew, you have my thanks. If you can guide me to other sources to check, that would be great, too. What details I currently have about these people came mostly from familysearch.org and ancestry.com.
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Birth, Marriage and Death results for Pettigrew of Newtownards Registration District
Displaying results 1 - 31 of 31. http://www.rootschat.com/links/01l90/
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Not all Images are online yet....
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https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/en/civil-records/help/i-want-to-get-a-copy-of-a-certificate-what-do-i-do
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Are there birth records for John and Agnes? I couldn't find John in the 1901 or 1911 census, to get an estimate of birthyear for him.
Civil registration of births started in 1864 so before that date it usually depends if baptisms from church records survive.
Agnes Pettigrew died a short while after 1911 census-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1911/05399/4507870.pdf
Unconfirmed family lore is that John had children by his first wife, some who migrated to Australia. Is there a record of this first marriage? Are there birth records for the children?
Again, no birth certificates before 1864. If John married in same registration district (Newtownards) the first time there are a few possibilities according to Emerald Ancestors free search which can then be checked through free search in another database listing father's name-
1848 John Petticrew to Sarah ? his father Archibald
1854 John Petticrew to Margaret ?
1855 John Petticrew to Margaret ? his father William
Using the 2nd database and looking for John Petti* with father Thomas there are no marriages for Counties Down or Antrim showing. Perhaps he married first wife before start of civil registration of non-Catholic marriages (1845).
In Griffith's Valuation, 1863, there are three listings for a John Pettigrew in Bangor. It records John as having three registered pieces of land; i) a placename Fisher’s Hill, Townland of Corporation, Bangor, a holding of a quarry, ii) also at Fisher’s Hill, ruins and garden, and iii) at Quay Street, a House, Office and Yard.
Am I reading this correctly that you think these are all for the same John Pettigrew? if so, why?
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Hallmark and Aghadowey, thank you both for pointing me to Irishgenealogy.ie. I was able to see the death record for Agnes, which was new for me, and a real find.
I cannot say with certainty that the 1863 Griffith's Valuation entries (3) are all for the same John, or that the John in the street directory listings is the John who married Agnes Gray. But the John in the directory listings did have a location on Quay St., as did (a) John in one of the GV entries. Perhaps that is of no significance.
One other bit. On John's 1863 marriage record, he is listed as a labourer, and his father Thomas is listed as a carpenter. Agnes' father, James Gray, is listed as a weaver.
I need some time to work through EmeraldAncestors. All the Irish sites are new to me.
It helps to read your analysis of the records. You've both been a great help. Thank you.
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Have you tried following up each of those 3 properties in the Valuation Revision books yet?
https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/information-and-services/search-archives-online/valuation-revision-books
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One other bit. On John's 1863 marriage record, he is listed as a labourer, and his father Thomas is listed as a carpenter. Agnes' father, James Gray, is listed as a weaver.
If you'd mentioned that at the start I would have posted this record to consider-
Thomas Pettigrew, carpenter, died 1882 in Belfast, age 90- son Daniel also at 15 Percy St. was informant-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1882/06416/4842830.pdf
Daniel, age 65, died same year and informant was his daughter Mary-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1882/06387/4833803.pdf
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Aghadowey,
I will work through the Valuation Revision records to see if I can glean anything more. Thanks for the suggestion.
Thanks also for the links to the death records for Thomas and Daniel Pettigrew of Belfast. I had not seen those, only an index entry for Thomas. Here's a summary of the death records:
10 March 1882 at 15 Percy St., Belfast, d. Thomas Pettigrew, widower, 90 YO, carpenter. Informant: Daniel Pettigrew, son, present at death, his residence 15 Percy St.
3 October 1882 at 15 Percy St., Belfast, d. Daniel Pettigrew, married, 65 YO, engineer. Informant: Mary Pettigrew, daughter, present at death, her residence 15 Percy St.
So, is this Thomas the father of John Pettigrew of Bangor?
Pros: This Thomas was born ~1792, an acceptable birthyear for a father of John. He had the same occupation as John's father, based upon John's 1863 marriage record. This Thomas has a son Daniel, and John has a son Daniel. (Daniel is an uncommon name among the Co. Down Pettig/crews.)
Cons: This Thomas and son Daniel were in Belfast. John Pettigrew was married and lived in Bangor, and his family members appeared there in the 1901 and 1911 census. I don't have evidence that John came from Belfast or ever lived there.
I'd like your opinion, based upon your considerable research experience. If John Pettigrew of Bangor was your ancestor, would you consider this death record for Thomas of Belfast proof enough that he was John's father?
I believe I did run across this same Thomas & Daniel, father and son, in the following BNL item, although the birthyear for Thomas, in this case, would work out to 1782, not 1792.
The Belfast News-Letter (Belfast, Ireland), Wednesday, July 26, 1854; Issue 12037.
Thomas Petticrew gave testimony in a civil court case, Bennett v. Frame, which was an action for trespass by diverting a water-course, within about three miles from Saintfield, Co. Down. Petticrew said that he was a carpenter, about 72 years old, born in the neighborhood of Ballyknocken mills. He referred to his son Daniel who was a millwright.
I did find several listings for Daniel in Belfast, in various street directories from 1852-1881. He was listed sometimes as Pettigrew and sometimes as Petticrew. His occupations were given, variously, as millwright, mechanic, foreman mechanic. In 1880 the listing was: Pettigrew, Daniel, engineer, 15 Percy St. That matches his death record.
I appreciate all your help. It is great to have your insights.
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Am checking a few more sources before posting what I found and possibilities ;)
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I'm not yet convinced that Daniel Pettigrew of Belfast is the same as your Bangor family.
Using newspaper reports, etc. it would seem they family were Presbyterian and originally connected to Moneyrea (burials there up to 1882). Here's a brief outline-
Thomas Pettigrew (c1791-1 Mar.1882 at 15 Percy St)
1. Daniel Pettigrew (c1817-6 Oct.1882 at 15 Percy St) m. Isabella (d.7 Apr.1870 at 87 Hanover St.)
a. Eliza Jane Pettigrew (d.Nov.1863 at Boundary St.), eld. dau.
b. Robert Brown Pettigrew (c1846-20 Aug.1864 at 88 Old Lodge Rd.)
c. Thomas Pettigrew (c1850-25 May 1876 at 87 Hanover St)
Daniel had an aunt-
Belfast Newsletter, 26 May 1871: WALLACE- May 25, at 87, Hanover Street, Belfast, the residence of her nephew, Mr. Daniel Pettigrew, Elizabeth, relict of the late Robert Wallace, of Magherascouse, aged 82 years. Her remains will be removed for interment …
and his father's obituary says-
Belfast Telegraph, 11 Mar.1882: ln our obituary column the death is announced of Mr. Thomas Pettigrew, who was born in the townland of Tollyguvah*, County Down, the year 1791. The deceased was, understand, the lost member...
* possibly Tullygarvan, Comber Parish?
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Now your Pettigrews-
John Pettigrew (d.bef.1911), son of Thomas, m.1 ___; m.2 (27 June 1863 COI, Bangor) Agnes Gray (c1832/6-20 June 1911)
1852- publican, Quay St.
1864, 1865, 1870- carter, Quay St.
1872- carter. 1874- farmer
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Bangor/Perspect_Road/1253250
1906- contractor
1911- widow Agnes with daughter Agnes Carson
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1911/05399/4507870.pdf
1. Charlotte Pettigrew (22 May 1865)- see below
2. Thomas James Pettigrew (14 Feb.1867-2 Jan.1945 Bangor).
Pettigrew Thomas James of 39 Bloomfield Road Bangor county Down retired butler died 2 January 1945 at the Cottage Hospital Bangor Administration (with Will) Belfast 4 December [1947] to Myrtle Carson spinster. Effects £1795 12s. 3d.
3. William John Pettigrew (8 Apr.1869)
4. Agnes Pettigrew (6 Sept.1872) m.(4 July 1906) George Carson
5. Daniel Pettigrew (12 July 1874)
Charlotte Pettigrew (22 May 1865) m.(2 Mar.1890) William Marshall (c1856-16 Feb.1896 Down Asylum, Downpatrick); m.(28 Aug.1899 Belfast) Francis “Frank” McConkey, carpenter
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1865/03577/2318596.pdf
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1890/10690/5896407.pdf
1895- William Marshall, van driver. 1896- bread server/baker
Belfast Newsletter, 24 Jan.1896, page 6: Committal of a Lunatic in Bangor. On the 22nd inst. William Marshall, of Crosby Street Bangor, was committed as a dangerous lunatic to the Downpatrick Asylum by Mr. William White, J.P., and Mr. Hugh Ferguson, J.P.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1896/05910/4677485.pdf (general paralysis [of the insane] i.e. syphilis)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1899/10385/5781520.pdf (she’s listed as Charlotte Marshall, spinster, 30 Cameron St. Belfast, father John Marshall, contractor). In 1901 directory Cameron St. numbers only go up to 19. In 1907 directory the even numbers still only go up to 10.
1. Agnes Eveline Marshall (27 Apr.1895 at Crosby St., Bangor-14 Feb.1896 Crosby St.)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1895/02221/1837976.pdf
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1896/05910/4677708.pdf
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Wow. Thanks for all that you've done. As you noted, Charlotte, daughter of John and Agnes Pettigrew, m. Frank McConkey. I did not know it was a second marriage for her. She was still alive in 1911, as the census shows her, Frank, and their children living at 63 Ballymagee Street, Bangor. The children then were William John 10, Thomas James 8, and George 6.
Back to Daniel Pettigrew of Belfast, d. 1882, son of Thomas d. 1882. Just to be super clear, this Daniel would be John's brother, if we can prove that Thomas, d. 1882, was John's father. In addition, John of Bangor had a son also named Daniel, b. 12 July 1874 in Bangor, d. 20 Mar 1952 in Minneapolis, Minnesota.
If this Thomas was indeed John's father, then I could add another couple generations of ancestors on the family tree.
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/boards/surnames.pettigrew/533.1/mb.ashx
The pertinent part is:
Daniel Petticrew of Tullygirvan m. Sarah Gray.
Children:
Archibald of Belfast m. Jane Murray
Elizabeth m. Robert Wallace of Marascouse
Thomas of Ravarah m. Eleanor McCreary. Went to Scotland.
More about that book, Ulster Pedigrees:
http://orrnamestudy.com/ulsterpedigree.htm
As you noted, the 1871 BNL death notice for Elizabeth Wallace confirms that Daniel of Belfast was her nephew. His dad Thomas, however, didn't die in Scotland, but at son Daniel's home in Belfast in 1882.
The big hurdle still remains proving that Thomas of Belfast (also of Tullygirvan) was father of John of Bangor. The two Thomas-Daniel name pairs certainly suggest that, but I can't yet find the documentation to confirm my speculation.
Your help has been terrific. Thank you so much for all the new info you have uncovered.
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Daniel Pettigrew of Tullygarvan or -girvan (Comber) and his wife Sarah Gray were my 4 x great-grandparents. I'm descended from their son Archibald Pettigrew and his wife Jane Murray. Archibald was a joiner in Belfast, and several of the male Pettigrews seem to have been joiners or millwrights. The name was originally Petticrew.
Archibald and Jane's youngest daughter Agnes was born in about 1832. Shortly afterwards her father must have died because Jane took the children over to Scotland and in 1838 she married her 2nd husband Walter Leggat in Dumfries. They moved to Hawick, where descendants lived until fairly recently. Jane died, a widow, in the poorhouse in Jedburgh and her death-certificate gives her parents as William Murray, stonemason, and Nancy Howat.
There have been (and are) quite a few Daniel Pettigrews, on both sides of the sectarian divide. In my family, the name Daniel goes back to my 6 x gt.grandparents James Orr of Munlough and Jane Campbell. Their son Daniel Orr (was Jane Campbell's father a Donald or Daniel?) married Elizabeth Chalmers of Drumbo. Their daughter Isabella Orr married Archibald Petticrew of Ballyknockan (Saintfield). They were the parents of Daniel Pettigrew or -crew who married Sarah Gray. Gray was a common surname in the Bangor area.
Harry