RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Topic started by: PaulThommo on Sunday 07 January 18 06:34 GMT (UK)
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Hello Rootschatters, probably a very simple question but one that I am not able to answer. How long from a birth to a registration of the birth? The reason for this question is that an Great uncle of mine Norman W H Witherington married a Lilian (or Lillian) Storey in Aylesbury in 1923. I have no certificates (BMD) as yet however have found that there are only 2 Lilian Witheringtons who have died in England between 1923 and 2005. One (the most likely) died in Sunderland in April 1991 and the information supplied stated that she was born on 15 May 1903. A Lilian Storey was born in Sunderland July-Sept 1903 so is it possible to have registration delayed by 2 months (thereabouts).
Norman Witherington was living with his family in Sunderland so this makes this Lilian Storey the most obvious one although why they were married in Aylesbury is anyones guess. I can find no Lilian Storey living in Buckinghamshire in the 1911 census. There is another Lilian Witherington who died in Norwich May 1994 who was born on 15 August 1903 but don't think that this one will be the right one.
There are a few other Lilian Storeys' born around that time the best being one in Sheffield who was born Jan-Mar 1903 but I can also find a marriage of a Lilian Storey in Sheffield in 1930.
Norman William Henry Witherington was born 11 March 1904 and that's why I am concentrating around the 1903/4 time period and these are the only ones coming up. He died in Bucklow, Cheshire in 1971
I haven't looked at any Lilian (with a middle initial) Storey as there is no indication of middle names on marriage notifications.
Sorry to go on a bit with just a simple question!!!!! Any information is appreciated.
Many thanks, Paul
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The Lilian Witherington who died in 1991 has a birth listed as 15 March 1903.
I think she could well be the Lilian Milne (born Sunderland 1903) who married John W Witherington in Sep Qtr 1929 Sunderland. Use her birth date to check the couple on the 1939 Register - using just her first name
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Although 42 days was the usual time to register a birth, under the 1874 Act you had up to three months, and a maximum of twelve months to register the birth. See Sections 2 & 5 of the Act at http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1874/88/pdfs/ukpga_18740088_en.pdf
There was no penalty for late registration.
After the expiration of twelve months next after the birth of any child, that birth shall not be registered except with the written authority of the Registrar General for registering the same, and except in accordance with the prescribed rules, and the fact of such authority having been given shall be entered in the register.
Stan
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Although 42 days was the usual time to register a birth, under the 1874 Act you had up to three months, and a maximum of twelve months to register the birth. See Sections 2 & 5 of the Act at http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1874/88/pdfs/ukpga_18740088_en.pdf There was no penalty for late registration.
After the expiration of twelve months next after the birth of any child, that birth shall not be registered except with the written authority of the Registrar General for registering the same, and except in accordance with the prescribed rules, and the fact of such authority having been given shall be entered in the register.
Stan
You may not call the doubling of the fee to register a birth late a penalty but I am sure many people would.
;)
Cheers
Guy
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You may also want to consider the possibility of alternative names. I have a woman in my tree who married and died as Lilian but was born Lilias, and another who married and died as Lily but was born Elizabeth.
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There is another Lilian Witherington who died in Norwich May 1994 who was born on 15 August 1903 but don't think that this one will be the right one.
It might be. Putting that d-o-b into the 1939 Register free search brings up
Lilian Witherington in Weston-Super-Mare M.B.
living with Julia Bailey, born 1883
(and possibly also with a closed person)
The free search is also suggesting that both ladies were married?
Could Julia Bailey be the mother of Lilian?
Marriage possibility in Sunderland, March qtr 1930
Bailey, Alexander - spouse Storey or Turnbull
Storey, Julia - spouse Bailey
Turnbull, Julia - spouse Bailey
Birth registration
Sep 1903 Sunderland 10a 767
Storey, Lilian
mother Turnbull
June qtr 1903 marriage possibility in Sunderland
Storey, Robert
Turnbull, Julia
+ 2 others
Free index to 1911, could be the family in Sunderland
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWC4-H2R
John
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Looks like Julia was divorced from her first husband
1929
Divorce Court File 3708
Appellant Julia Storey
Respondent Robert Storey
Wife's petition for divorce
at TNA
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I think that looks good John. There is a death of an Alexander Bailey age 56 Dec Qtr 1938 Sunderland
Kay
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There was no penalty for late registration.
Stan
SECOND SCHEDULE.
Fees to Registrars and "Superintendent Registrars.
Upon the registration of a birth when the child is more than three months old, if it is 'not more than twelve months old, to superintendent registrar two shillings and sixpence, and to the registrar (unless the delay is occasioned by his failure to issue a requisition, or otherwise by his default) two shillings and sixpence, and if it is more than twelve months old, and is registered with the authority of the Registrar General, to superintendent registrar five shillings, and to registrar (unless the delay is occasioned by his failure to issue a requisition or otherwise by his default) five shillings, to be paid by the informant or declarant. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1874/88/pdfs/ukpga_18740088_en.pdf
Stan
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If, as seems quite possible, the Lilian Storey registered Sep qtr 1903, Sunderland, is the Lilian Witherington born 15 August 1903, then of course there is no question of a late registration.
Probate for her, 19 May 1994, a will.
Lilian Witherington
of 186 Wroxham Rd Sprowston Norwich
died 1 May 1994
not exceeding £125000
John
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There was no penalty for late registration.
Stan
SECOND SCHEDULE.
Fees to Registrars and "Superintendent Registrars.
Upon the registration of a birth when the child is more than three months old, if it is 'not more than twelve months old, to superintendent registrar two shillings and sixpence, and to the registrar (unless the delay is occasioned by his failure to issue a requisition, or otherwise by his default) two shillings and sixpence, and if it is more than twelve months old, and is registered with the authority of the Registrar General, to superintendent registrar five shillings, and to registrar (unless the delay is occasioned by his failure to issue a requisition or otherwise by his default) five shillings, to be paid by the informant or declarant. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1874/88/pdfs/ukpga_18740088_en.pdf
Stan
The normal fee to register at that time was two shillings and sixpence.
If the child was registered after 3 months the fee was doubled to two shillings and sixpence to the registrar plus two shillings and sixpence to the superintendent registrar. (i.e. the fee was doubled as a penalty, whether it is called that or not)
If the child was registered after 1 year the fee was five shillings to the registrar and five shillings to the superintendent registrar. (i.e. the fee was again doubled or quadrupled from the initial fee of 2/6 as a penalty, whether it is called that or not)
In today’s world they would likely claim the 2/6 fee was a reduced fee for early registration ;) and the other two fees were for addition costs incurred but we all know they were in all but name, penalties!
Cheers
Guy
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As far as I am aware there was no fee for just registering a birth. However for a certified copy of any entry given by the superintendent registrar, there was a fee of two shillings and sixpence to be paid by the applicant to the superintendent registrar. For registering a birth when required to do so at the residence of person signing requisition, or at house where child was born (not being a public institution), one shilling was to be paid by the informant to registrar.
Stan
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The Lilian Witherington who died in 1991 has a birth listed as 15 March 1903.
I think she could well be the Lilian Milne (born Sunderland 1903) who married John W Witherington in Sep Qtr 1929 Sunderland. Use her birth date to check the couple on the 1939 Register - using just her first name
Hello Kay, Thanks for that information, you could well be right as there were cousins also living in Sunderland as well. The family originated from the Wigton/Bowness area in Cumberland
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You may also want to consider the possibility of alternative names. I have a woman in my tree who married and died as Lilian but was born Lilias, and another who married and died as Lily but was born Elizabeth.
Hello Jebber, thanks for that information. Just to do your head in using different names, however in this case I think the good people at Rootschat may well have solved it.
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Looks like Julia was divorced from her first husband
1929
Divorce Court File 3708
Appellant Julia Storey
Respondent Robert Storey
Wife's petition for divorce
at TNA
Thanks Jon, you could well be right with all that information. Ordering the marriage certificate will at least provide me with her fathers name and occupation.
With all the information you provided me I had to write it all down and digest it, it was starting to get a bit complicated.
Once again many thanks, Paul
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As far as I am aware there was no fee for just registering a birth. However for a certified copy of any entry given by the superintendent registrar, there was a fee of two shillings and sixpence to be paid by the applicant to the superintendent registrar. For registering a birth when required to do so at the residence of person signing requisition, or at house where child was born (not being a public institution), one shilling was to be paid by the informant to registrar.
Stan
Stan, once again thank you for your valuable information, one more thing that I am now aware of.
Thanks, Paul
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There was no penalty for late registration.
Stan
SECOND SCHEDULE.
Fees to Registrars and "Superintendent Registrars.
Upon the registration of a birth when the child is more than three months old, if it is 'not more than twelve months old, to superintendent registrar two shillings and sixpence, and to the registrar (unless the delay is occasioned by his failure to issue a requisition, or otherwise by his default) two shillings and sixpence, and if it is more than twelve months old, and is registered with the authority of the Registrar General, to superintendent registrar five shillings, and to registrar (unless the delay is occasioned by his failure to issue a requisition or otherwise by his default) five shillings, to be paid by the informant or declarant. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1874/88/pdfs/ukpga_18740088_en.pdf
Stan
The normal fee to register at that time was two shillings and sixpence.
If the child was registered after 3 months the fee was doubled to two shillings and sixpence to the registrar plus two shillings and sixpence to the superintendent registrar. (i.e. the fee was doubled as a penalty, whether it is called that or not)
If the child was registered after 1 year the fee was five shillings to the registrar and five shillings to the superintendent registrar. (i.e. the fee was again doubled or quadrupled from the initial fee of 2/6 as a penalty, whether it is called that or not)
In today’s world they would likely claim the 2/6 fee was a reduced fee for early registration ;) and the other two fees were for addition costs incurred but we all know they were in all but name, penalties!
Cheers
Guy
Thanks Guy for your assistance and informing me. It looks as though children have always been expensive from day one!!!
Thanks, Paul
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With all the information you provided me I had to write it all down
A bit more
School records for Lilian in Sunderland
Stansfield Street Infants School
admitted 17 Aug 1908
Lillian Storey, father Robert, 14 Westcott Terr, born 15 Aug 1903 (15.8.03)
Redby Junior School
admitted 17 June 1912
Lilian Storey, father Robert, 99 Fulwell Rd, born 15 Aug 1903
why they were married in Aylesbury is anyones guess
It appears that Norman was in the R.A.F.
Bucks Herald, 28 June 1924
A Lamp Stolen.—Norman Witherington, of Halton Camp, pleaded guilty to riding a bicycle without a light at 11.15 p.m. on Sunday, June 15th.—P.C. Bush proved the case, stating that the defendant told him his lamp had been stolen.—Defendant repeated this information to the Magistrates, saying that he left his bicycle outside a public house in Aylesbury and when he went for it he found his lamp had been taken, one of his tyres deflated and two tyre levers were missing. He repaired the tyre as best he could and cycled home without a light as his wife was ill and he did not want to cause her worry by being very late.—The Bench accepted this explanation and ordered defendant to pay 5s. 6d. costs without a conviction.
By autumn 1925 Norman was twenty one and he must surely be the Norman Witherington on the electoral register at Main Street, Weston Turville (ditto 1926).
There were only a couple of Norman Witheringtons about!
He may then be the Witherington who kept goal at football for Weston Turville in 1926? In the final of the Aylesbury and District League Junior Championship that year, the team were up against North Marston.
The Bucks Herald said that "Witherington, in Weston Turville's goal, played well"
But they still lost 4-0.
1930 electoral register has
Lilian Witherington at Sideways, High Street, Lee on Solent (in Hampshire, Gosport area)
1931 has
Norman William Henry Witherington, and Lilian Witherington, at Solenta, High Street, Lee on Solent.
Their daughter, D.....y, is mentioned in The Hampshire Telegraph, 8 August 1930. She came third in a fancy dress race at a Village Fair in Lee on Solent.
Finally
British Military Lists on National Library of Scotland
1938-1945 Air Force Lists
Witherington, N.W.H.
(Warrant Officer)
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With all the information you provided me I had to write it all down
A bit more
School records for Lilian in Sunderland
Stansfield Street Infants School
admitted 17 Aug 1908
Lillian Storey, father Robert, 14 Westcott Terr, born 15 Aug 1903 (15.8.03)
Redby Junior School
admitted 17 June 1912
Lilian Storey, father Robert, 99 Fulwell Rd, born 15 Aug 1903
why they were married in Aylesbury is anyones guess
It appears that Norman was in the R.A.F.
Bucks Herald, 28 June 1924
A Lamp Stolen.—Norman Witherington, of Halton Camp, pleaded guilty to riding a bicycle without a light at 11.15 p.m. on Sunday, June 15th.—P.C. Bush proved the case, stating that the defendant told him his lamp had been stolen.—Defendant repeated this information to the Magistrates, saying that he left his bicycle outside a public house in Aylesbury and when he went for it he found his lamp had been taken, one of his tyres deflated and two tyre levers were missing. He repaired the tyre as best he could and cycled home without a light as his wife was ill and he did not want to cause her worry by being very late.—The Bench accepted this explanation and ordered defendant to pay 5s. 6d. costs without a conviction.
By autumn 1925 Norman was twenty one and he must surely be the Norman Witherington on the electoral register at Main Street, Weston Turville (ditto 1926).
There were only a couple of Norman Witheringtons about!
He may then be the Witherington who kept goal at football for Weston Turville in 1926? In the final of the Aylesbury and District League Junior Championship that year, the team were up against North Marston.
The Bucks Herald said that "Witherington, in Weston Turville's goal, played well"
But they still lost 4-0.
1930 electoral register has
Lilian Witherington at Sideways, High Street, Lee on Solent (in Hampshire, Gosport area)
1931 has
Norman William Henry Witherington, and Lilian Witherington, at Solenta, High Street, Lee on Solent.
Their daughter, D.....y, is mentioned in The Hampshire Telegraph, 8 August 1930. She came third in a fancy dress race at a Village Fair in Lee on Solent.
Finally
British Military Lists on National Library of Scotland
1938-1945 Air Force Lists
Witherington, N.W.H.
(Warrant Officer)
Jon, wow thank you so much for all that valuable information, I would never have been able to find it myself, it has told me so much about one of my ancestors. It's nice to know that Lilian was born a couple of months after her parents wedding and that Norman has been up before a magistrate!!!! I don't know how you find out all this information but I am so grateful that you have made the effort. So many thanks, Paul