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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Silvercup on Sunday 07 January 18 23:31 GMT (UK)
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I don't know if these records are available to view but if so, would somebody mind looking up the details for me?
William RANDALL married Florence NICHOLAS in Frome 1918
What I'm after are the details of William's father - name and occupation
many thanks
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IGI has the marriage record as William J Randall - so the J helps a little - narrows it down a bit :)
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It isn't possible to look up Marriage certificates - you have to purchase a copy :-\
It might be possible to look at the Parish Register entry - but which parish?
There were 29 parishes in the Frome Registration District in 1918.
And, of course, they could easily have married in the Register Office - in which case the Marriage Certificate is the only option?
When was William born?
Or when did he die? A year of birth can be calculated from his age at death.
Have you found them in the 1939 National Register?
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Ah I was hoping they'd be scanned in a set somewhere like the London ones.
I don't know which parish they married but Florence was baptised at Frome St John (Froome Selwood)
William was my gt grandfather and all I know is that he said he was a true cockney born within the sound of Bow Bells and that he was very short. I have found WW1 attestation papers which I believe to be his - address of Bromley by Bow but what really tipped me off was his height - 5' 3" and described as having a lady's stature!
On the papers he was 24 in 1914 and his next of kin was his mother named Sarah Randall.
So assuming a birth date of 1890 I have found a family in 1891 who fit - father William Randall born 1856 in Leicestershire and mother Sarah born 1855 in Southwark. I was hoping that a marriage record would confirm it for me.
Re the 1939 register - I can only access the index but I'm not sure where he is. Florence Randall is in Frome with her daughter Margery Randall.
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Presumably she is Florence Fanny Nicholas born Frome 1 Mar 1893 who died as Florence Fanny Randall in Enfield in 1969?
Might he have died in the same area (yielding a birthdate)? Do you have any idea when he died?
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Yes that's her.
There is a William J Randall death in Edmonton in 1958 - not completely sure it's him but my mum thinks her age at the time sounds right. That also has his birth as 1890
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The army sevice record you found does (very faintly) show the name Florence Nicholas in the "Particulars of Marriage" section. None of the other details appear to have been filled in.
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You say you found a fit in 1891 with a son of a William and Sarah.
However you may wish to look also at William J Randall 8 months old in 1891, son of Henry/Harry? T Randall and Sarah, at 192 Seven Rd, Bromley by Bow. RG12/328/88/66. (Rendell on Anc).
Birth reg as William John Randall, mmn Stone, Sep qtr 1890 Poplar.
Parents' marriage: Henry Thomas Randall and Sarah Stone, Jun qtr 1883 Poplar.
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Thank you. I found them previously but transcribed as Rendall and it's what made me question the family I was looking at.
The address seems more promising.
If William had his mother listed as next of kin in 1914 would that indicate that his father had died by then, or would it have been normal to have listed mother?
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If William had his mother listed as next of kin in 1914 would that indicate that his father had died by then, or would it have been normal to have listed mother?
I'd think he was probably not around for whatever reason.
It looks like Henry's in a large all-male lodging house in Poplar in the last census.
The daughter Abigail married in 1917 in Enfield, naming her father as Henry Randall, coach-maker. However as he was not one of the witnesses that doesn't tell you whether or not he was alive by then.
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Would you say that this is the right family to research? It seems more probable.
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You really need that marriage certificate to identify the right family. At present I can't place Sarah at either of the NOK addresses on the army record. She's in Hornsey in the last census with daugher "Sarah Jesse" (registered as Sarah Jescina in 1887).
It looks likely to have been a disrupted family; most of the children were in an institution (Forest Gate District School) in West Ham in 1901 (this facility was apparently used by Poplar as a "training school"*):
Sarah Randall 13
Abigail Randall 12
William Randall 10
Arthur Randall 7
Albert Randall 7
Richard Randall 4
(All births registered in Poplar with mmn Stone).
*Interesting stuff here about the relatively benign treatment of inmates in this institution at the time:
www.e7-nowandthen.org/2017/01/forest-gate-industrial-school-1890.html
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Florence F Randall is living at 113 Leighton Road Enfield with William J until 1957. After that WJ is not there which is probably the 1958 death.
There is a James H Randall with them some years.
There is also David P and Audrey for some years.
Are these family names?
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Yes that'll be right, James was my mum's Uncle Jimmy.
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I added another couple of names.
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Yes, Audrey, David and James - all the right children
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I would agree that you need the marriage certificate. There is no point in researching a family when you are not sure.
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Just on the off chance, I had a look at BathBMD.org.uk; transcriptions of the registers from Bath and North-East Somerset.
But, no Florence, and no William :-\
It's a shame, because that might have told you in which church they were married.
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Not that it proves any link, but Abigail and her husband David Porteous also appear to have lived in Enfield in the 1920s.
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Florence F Randall is living at 113 Leighton Road Enfield with William J until 1957. After that WJ is not there which is probably the 1958 death.
There is a James H Randall with them some years.
There is also David P and Audrey for some years.
Are these family names?
William J Randall of 113 Leighton Rd, Enfield seems to have had a birthdate of 3 Aug 1890, which would have made him 8 months (and 2 days) old when the 1891 census was taken on 5 Apr 1891. This is consistent with the age of the baby son of Henry and Sarah as found in that census.
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Thank you. Having spoken to my mum again she says that he had 2 sisters (fits) and that the story goes that when he was young, he was so hungry that he looked for food in bins. This does initially seem to fit with a disrupted family in an institution.
Also interestingly he was very artistic apparently and this could fit with a father being a coach painter!
Based on everything I think this must be the right family but I will check the marriage cert to be sure. It's possible that it's in the family but if not will order a PDF.
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Based on everything I think this must be the right family but I will check the marriage cert to be sure. It's possible that it's in the family but if not will order a PDF.
PDF isn't available for marriages ;D
Only for births and deaths.
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Thank you. Having spoken to my mum again she says that he had 2 sisters (fits) and that the story goes that when he was young, he was so hungry that he looked for food in bins. This does initially seem to fit with a disrupted family in an institution.
Perhaps this goes some way to explaining why he was small as an adult?
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Thank you. Having spoken to my mum again she says that he had 2 sisters (fits) and that the story goes that when he was young, he was so hungry that he looked for food in bins. This does initially seem to fit with a disrupted family in an institution.
Perhaps this goes some way to explaining why he was small as an adult?
That's exactly what my mum said, she doesn't think he grew properly as a child :(
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William was my gt grandfather and all I know is that he said he was a true cockney born within the sound of Bow Bells and that he was very short. I have found WW1 attestation papers which I believe to be his - address of Bromley by Bow but what really tipped me off was his height - 5' 3" and described as having a lady's stature!
On the papers he was 24 in 1914 and his next of kin was his mother named Sarah Randall.
My apologies, but I wonder whether you have slightly misread William's attestation papers:
Height 5' 3 1/8" Girth 35 inches when fully expanded, range of expansion 3 inches.
Distinctive marks: Lady's figure and dots - right forearm. Dots - left forearm.
I read that as tattoos. :-\ And I think we have to remember that people were not so tall back at the beginning of the 20th century. OK he was on the short side, but not exceptionally so - average height for males in 1900 was 5' 6".
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Of course you're right, tattoos ;D
I thought it was a bit rude saying he had a lady's figure! I feel a bit daft now haha.
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*Interesting stuff here about the relatively benign treatment of inmates in this institution at the time:
www.e7-nowandthen.org/2017/01/forest-gate-industrial-school-1890.html
Thank you, I found that too. Horrible to read about the fire.
I've been trying to find some more info about the children on the poor law board of guardian records but struggling my way around them a little! I'd love to know under what circumstances they went in, did the father desert them. Family have now said they thought he grew up in an orphanage - we know now he wasn't orphaned but the story is coming together.
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The youngest child, Richard Charles Randall, was baptised at Holy Trinity, Leytonstone on 19 Sep 1897 (parents: Henry and Sarah). He was baptised together with a brother Frederick, whose birth was registered Jun 1895 Poplar.
Richard seems to have moved to the Poplar Training School in Hutton, Essex* after 1901, and died in Enfield in 1972 with a recorded birthdate of 8 June 1897.
*This seems to have been the new location for the training school previously in Forest Gate, according to the article found previously.
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I have found William's baptism in 1907 when he was 17. His birth is correctly recorded on the register as 3 August 1890.
Parents listed as Henry and Sarah - does this mean they were both present? I am struggling to read Henry's occupation but think it says artist.
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That is very good news that the birthdate on the baptism is a precise match for "your" William, as found in later records.
Regarding the baptism- the recording of his parents' names does not in any way imply that either or both was present at the baptism. It looks from other records as though they were both alive at this time, but you can't even infer that from a baptism record.
Just found it - I agree with your reading of "artist".
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Great news that it all fits :)
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I'm glad I managed to confirm it without needing to purchase the certificate! Thanks for the help everybody.