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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Carmarthenshire => Topic started by: Chris 71 on Monday 08 January 18 19:49 GMT (UK)
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I am looking for John Williams earlier life and family. He was born 1868 and was married in Llanelly in 1892 to Elizabeth Evans. They lived in Mill Street and he died on 23rd May 1900 age 32 with his address given as 10 Mill St. He is buried I believe in St David's though whether that's a church or parish I don't know. He had 3 children Esther J. (b.1894) David J. (b.1898) and Samuel (b.1900) and a stepson Evan L Evans (b.1892) Not sure how he died. Elizabeth moved to 18 Mill St after his death. She may have had her brother (?) Daniel living with her. (b.1890) Any help appreciated.
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he was buried on the 23rd May but he died as the result of an accident in Carmarthen during the celebrations for the relief of Mafeking
http://newspapers.library.wales/view/3583402/3583405/12/
He was known as Jack Wyndham according to the article and his father was at the inquest and gave evidence about his age.
Here's your earlier post about this family who lived in Mill St, Carmarthen, not Llanelli.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=762182.0
Esther Jane was baptised in St Peter's, Carmarthen 14 Aug 1894, daughter of John, labourer, & Elizabeth of Mill St.
David John bp 21 June 1898, same details for parents, Steam Mill, Carmarthen
Samuel bp 24 July 1900, same details for parents, Rogers Cottages, Mill St.
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there would appear to be more children to the couple, one of the newspaper reports mentions a widow and 6 children. Here's the birth announcement for a daughter born 17 May 1896
http://newspapers.library.wales/view/3582027/3582030/30/
http://newspapers.library.wales/view/4341125/4341128/11/
The death of Elizabeth's mother, Esther, also had an inquest
http://newspapers.library.wales/view/3762463/3762470/45/
Do you have Elizabeth & John's marriage certificate to confirm name & occupation for John's father?
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Thank you for all of that information. Yes I already had details of the three children (I think the six was a mistake) I have ordered the marriage certificate for John and Elizabeth. I have yet to find John's birth details. Apart from the year I know nothing yet.
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given how common his name is, it would be an idea to wait for the marriage cert and then add the info to this post so we can search again with father's details. Cert should also give addresses at time of marriage.
It's guesswork otherwise.
Definitely another daughter as shown by the birth announcement from 1896. I suspect that Evan & Daniel may have been included in the count: Daniel is enumerated as son in 1901. Also, you should check the 1911 details as number of children is noted on that.
;)
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The daughter is not listed on the 1911 so I think she may have died. There were only 3 living with her when John died and she had Samuel a couple of months later. That's probably where the six came from. She said she had six meaning the four living with her, the dead one and Daniel who I'm not sure about. Don't know if he is her brother or son. If he is her son, who is his father? Evan's father was named as Llewellyn Evans on his marriage certificate but not on his birth certificate. She married John in 1892.
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This is beyond ridiculous. I order a marriage certificate for John Williams / Elizabeth Evans and the GRO say they are not married to each other. I have lots on them census etc to prove they were together and the reference Llanelly, 1892 Sep qtr, 11a 1323 is on both their names. Even on the original GRO entries. But speaking to them on the phone today they say they are not married to each other. So what on earth do I do now? Anyone had this before?
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Most GRO references cover two marriages - so this could mean that a John Williams and an Elizabeth Evans have the same reference, but are part of two different couples.
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Well they were definitely a couple. They had kids together and lived together and were named on a census. Every certificate I have got in the past was obtained by using the same number for both people. So at a loss here. What would be the point of them having the same number if they were not a couple. If that's the case then you would never be able to find out. I looked on the family search org and even on there they are named with each other. In fact her three younger children all had his surname.
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According to the IGI, against each name was a few others so I have looked at all these and come up with the following.
Elizabeth Evans (b. 1868), Rebecca Jones, Henry Hopkins and John Williams. ALL have 11a 1323 on them. 1892 Llanelly Sep Qtr. Marriages. (I may have to look at other years but the birth dates of the children go from 1894 to 1900 with one being a newspaper announcement in 1896)
I thought John and Elizabeth were a couple as their three youngest have John's surname. (Esther Jane, David John and Samuel Williams) Living in Mill St Carmarthen. (John died age 32 in 1900)
If she was instead married to Henry Hopkins, there is the issue of the children. This is the correct Elizabeth by the way. Anyone come across this before?
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I thought you had not yet had the marriage certificate - how then do you know this Elizabeth Evans is the correct one? That's the only place that will give you age, address and father's name
Have you tried this one?
Q4 1893 Llanelly Vol 11a p1434
Evans Elizabeth
James Martha
Rees William
Williams John
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I saw somewhere she had her first son living with her after her mum died in 1901. Her mum Esther had brought him up. And she called her first daughter after her. Someone had given me the info about the marriage being 1892 but I never thought to look elsewhere. Its possible her and John married in 1893 as Esther was born in 1894. Thanks for that, I will order another certificate. Will let you know if its the right one.
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Well thanks to you Mabel I now have the right certificate. Reads as follows.
Dec 23rd 1893. John Williams age 26 / Elizabeth Evans age 25. Batchelor/spinster, Labourer, Residence Morob - fach (not sure if that's a street) Her father David Evans (correct) his father William Williams. Both are labourers. Witnesses Samuel Lewis and John Williams. Vicar David Evans. It was at the Parish church in parish of Pembrey in Carmarthen.
Don't know yet who is mother is. Or what Marob-fach is!
By the way, Evan was living with her age 19 in 1911 census so it was her.
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Potentially it's "Moreb fach" which appears to be a farm in the Pembrey/Burry Port area
See https://historicplacenames.rcahmw.gov.uk/placenames/recordedname/422a332d-9ee8-431a-b795-c2f05682f8cf for the approximate location
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agree with the Moreb fach.
I'd found this family when I was looking for John before and father's name from marriage cert matches
1871 3 Mount, Carmarthen RG10/5497 folio 50 pg 27
William Williams head mar 34 gen labourer
Jane wife 38
Ann dau 12
David son 10
John son 4
William J son 1
all born Carmarthen St Peter
1881 Steam Mill House, Station Rd, Carmarthen RG11/5397 folio 90 pg 36
William Wiliiams head mar 56 general labourer
Jane wife 57
John son 13
parents seem to have aged a lot!
John was baptised 6 July 1870, so of William, labourer, & Jane of Steam Mill, his brother William James was baptised on the same day.
On birth regs for John sept qtr 1867 Carmarthen vol 11 pg 691 and William James dec qtr 1869 Carmarthen vol 11a pg 698 mother's maiden name is Evans.
Possible marriage 18 June 1866 in Carmarthen St Peter of William Williams & Jane Morgan, widow, his father John Williams, possibly mariner, hers John Evans possibly fisherman
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THANK YOU so much for that info. I looked on IGI earlier and saw a likely William Williams and Jane. Obviously it would take much looking up with that common name. I really appreciate your help.
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This looks like Jane with first husband, children match the older ones from 1871 and Jane's age near that given in 1871
1861 Castle Green, Carmarthen RG9/4139 folio 24 pg 43
Thomas Morgan head mar 29 general labourer
Jane wife 29
Maria dau 6
Ann dau 2
David son 8 months
John Evans father-in-law widower 58 fisherman
all born Carmarthen
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Thanks Osprey that is brilliant. So good of you to look like these up for me. :)
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Also, Thank you Mabel for those maps. Very useful.