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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: FamilyPhotoReunion on Monday 08 January 18 20:57 GMT (UK)
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I was given an old carte de visite photo album containing about 60 images. I'm curious about the previous owners, and posted a story about it on my Family Photo Reunion blog. I'm particularly interested in learning which manor house is featured in a photo inside the album. Can you help?
You can read more about the picture and the other images in the album at:
http://familyphotoreunion.blogspot.com/2013/06/mystery-manor-house-carte-de-visite.html
Thanks,
Carol
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I don't immediately recognise the property, although I live in Newcastle and get around Northumberland often. However, reading the blogspot, I see that the family have a connection with Newbiggin, Westmoreland (Cumbria), so have you considered Newbiggin Hall, near Temple Sowerby, Cumbria.
Not found any similar images so far but here's a link:
http://www.matthewpemmott.co.uk/2008/01/newbiggin-hall-newbiggin.html
Gadget
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Good morning,
I would say not, Newbiggin Hall is 3 stories and castelated. Has a chur h next to it as well.
John915
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The photo suggests a sprawling building - note that there is more to the left.
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Back again,
Still only 2 stories though Gadget.
John915
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I'm not suggesting it is that but commenting on the image. We're looking for a sprawling building, maybe Victorian but with add ons. It's worth considering the area that the family lived in:
There were quite a few leads to follow when I looked into the exact hits for "Arthur William James Cecil." Of particular help was the Cambridge Alumni Directory, 1261-1900 on Ancestry.com which stated that Arthur was the son of Lord Arthur Cecil, born Apr. 4, 1875, at Newbiggin, Westmorland
Gadget
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I missed the following bit about Arthur Cecil:
He died Sept. 26, 1936 at Rudgwick, Horsham, Sussex. He was connected to several residences including Finchcox Park, Goudhurst, Kent; and Orchardmains, Tonbridge, Kent.
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I think there's been an error to which Newbiqggin the family were associated with. later censuses and birth registration suggest Newbiggin by the sea, Morpeth :
Arthur William J Cecil, Q2, 1875, Morpeth, 10b, 375.
So I'd say that we're looking at the Newbiggin/Blyth area of Northumberland.
Gadget
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I thought that the building to the left was a seperate dwelling set back a bit from the "big house", rather than it being another wing.
I don't think the style is grand enough to be connected to the main house - it would at least have been clad with an imposing facade if it was perhaps an older and less impressive looking wing.
It's an interesting looking house. I get an ecclesiastical vibe from it, perhaps related to the big windows on the left. Some kind of institution perhaps?
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In 1881, the family are at
Orchard Mains House, Traquair, Peeblesshire
Arthur Cecil, 29. Farmer of 4000 acres , b. England
Elizabeth Ann, 38, farmer's wife, b. England
Lionel Cecil, brother, 28, b. England
Arthur W J, son, 6, b. England
Reginald E, son, 2, b. Traquair
and 10 servants
Pic of this house - ? possible
Gadget
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Only pic I can find so far:
http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-42022287.html
Added - some outside views that are possible
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Only pic I can find so far:
http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-42022287.html
Added - some outside views that are possible
That's not Orchard Mains House, which appears to have been demolished.
That property is located here: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Kirkhouse+Cottages,+Innerleithen+EH44+6PU/
If you look on this old map you will see Orchard Mains House was located several hundred yards to the north in what is now a wooded area: http://maps.nls.uk/view/75652640
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From an article about the builder of Orchard Mains
He also built the mansion house at Orchard Mains (now completely vanished) for Lord Cecil
http://www.pastinnerleithen.com/robert-mathison
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From an article about the builder of Orchard Mains
He also built the mansion house at Orchard Mains (now completely vanished) for Lord Cecil
http://www.pastinnerleithen.com/robert-mathison
Thanks, Jennifer. It would explain why I had problems finding any images and the only one coming up was RightMove :-X
They moved to another farm near Tunbridge in Kent by 1901 - and seemed to have named it Orchardmein!
Gadget
added - a short article about Arthur Cecil:
http://www.bordertelegraph.com/news/15481811.Tweeddale_s_History__The_history_of_Lord_Cecil_from_Traquair/
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I was given an old carte de visite photo album containing about 60 images. I'm curious about the previous owners, and posted a story about it on my Family Photo Reunion blog. I'm particularly interested in learning which manor house is featured in a photo inside the album. Can you help?
You can read more about the picture and the other images in the album at:
http://familyphotoreunion.blogspot.com/2013/06/mystery-manor-house-carte-de-visite.html
Thanks,
Carol
Hello Carol
Can I see a high resolution scan of the curved gable? Don't know if it is a mark in the photo (which is only 57kb), but there looks to be a pattern, besides a tiny window, or recess, on the curved gable?
There is also some ornate work over the bay windows.
Also a squarish, ornate work to the low roof, is it a Clock, a Dial or Family Arms, or just fancy accoutrements?
If you don't wish to scan the whole picture at higher dpi (and probably too big to post), you should be able to select 300 or 400dpi and scan parts of the photo i.e. curved gable and chimneys.
Are the tall chimneys round, hexagonal, or square, some look as though they could be round, others square, or possibly other shape?
I presume you have tilted the picture album back and forth in different brightness of lights and also natural daylight?
I had a 100 year old photo of a thatched roof school and the name was originally embossed written on the photo, but had completely rubbed / chipped cleanly off the photo surface, leaving where the letters once were, very very slightly darker, which could only be seen by tilting the photo back and forth in different lights.
I like the house very much!
Mark
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It's in a very similar style to Maften Hall
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Been by Matfen a few times but never visited. Some similarities but ....
https://www.matfenhall.com/hotel/a-brief-history-of-matfen-hall/
and
http://images.visitkielder.com/Matfen-Hall/vn-medium-Exterior.jpg
added - still think it's the 'vanished' Orchard Main in Peeblesshire as it has strong links to the family.
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Just found the link with Newbiggin by the Sea, where Arthur William James Cecil was born in 1885:
Arthur Cecil, born 3 July 1851 ; married, first, 8 January 1874, Elizabeth Ann, eldest daughter of Joseph Wilson, of Woodhorn Manor, Northumberland,
https://tinyurl.com/y82aestc
I've been to Woodhorn a few times but not sure if the original Manor is there. Maybe Jennifer would know.
Gadget
(I've lots of pics of both Newbiggin by the Sea and Woodhorn!)
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http://www.lostheritage.org.uk/houses/lh_northumberland_woodhornmanor_info_gallery.html
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Been by Matfen a few times but never visited. Some similarities but ....
https://www.matfenhall.com/hotel/a-brief-history-of-matfen-hall/
and
http://images.visitkielder.com/Matfen-Hall/vn-medium-Exterior.jpg
added - still think it's the 'vanished' Orchard Main in Peeblesshire as it has strong links to the family.
Few possibles ? but I'm not over optimistic as there are 1000's of halls in UK from stately halls to mill owners houses called Halls with copied big Hall architeture in suburbia towns / cities. (there are hurdreds in Huddersfield around Halifax road and Edgerton & Holmfirth to mention one town)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Country_houses_in_Northumberland
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.9986797,-1.6031582,3a,34.2y,334.74h,93.11t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sWazDEo4PAzRjWbnryMumBw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
https://www.booking.com/hotel/gb/jesmond-dene-house.en-gb.html?aid=336137
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middleton_Hall,_Northumberland
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Example of mill owner houses
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.6589371,-1.8061595,3a,75y,0.21h,79.84t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1so3rRSNRuT9HUjcNyH08Zhw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
No doubt there will be hundreds these type houses and halls in Northumberland of ship owners/19th century wealthy people and the like in suburbia or in the countryside.
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The Cecil family, who the OP says are the original owners of the photo album, were associated with 3 properties during the 16 or so years after Arthur William James was born:
1 Woodhorn Manor, near Newbiggin on Sea, Northumberland - AWJC was probably born there
2. Orchard Mains, Traquair, Peeblesshire - 1891 census
3, Orchardmein, Tunbridge, Kent -1901 census
1 and 2 have been demolished.
It's possible that none of these may be the property but it's worth starting with them.
Gadget
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The Cecil family, who the OP says are the original owners of the photo album, were associated with 3 properties during the 16 or so years after Arthur William James was born:
1 Woodhorn Manor, near Newbiggin on Sea, Northumberland - AWJC was probably born there
2. Orchard Mains, Traquair, Peeblesshire - 1891 census
3, Orchardmein, Tunbridge, Kent -1901 census
1 and 2 have been demolished.
It's possible that none of these may be the property but it's worth starting with them.
Gadget
Orchard main looks like its got possibilities
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@55.5908599,-3.078737,3a,27.1y,136.41h,94.02t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sDSC8TAvwoUyXIKfvxZBWFQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
The building East of the bus stop in sat map by the New ball burn (Stream) look at lay out - has an adjacent corner for a fancy pattern garden
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@55.5910583,-3.0773613,269m/data=!3m1!1e3
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Orchard Mains House lay in the woods behind Orchard Mains farm:
(http://web.yurgn31.50mail.com/Captureomains.JPG)
The buildings on the main road labelled on Google maps e.g. Orchard Mains Barn are some way south:
(http://web.yurgn31.50mail.com/Captureomains2.JPG)
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The nearest I could find in a brief search was Matfen Hall but though there are similarities, there also marked differences . (nearest so far to the OP's picture in my view).
Wiggy
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Orchard main looks like its got possibilities
Please see reply #12
From an article about the builder of Orchard Mains
He also built the mansion house at Orchard Mains (now completely vanished) for Lord Cecil
http://www.pastinnerleithen.com/robert-mathison
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The nearest I could find in a brief search was Matfen Hall but though there are similarities, there also marked differences . (nearest so far to the OP's picture in my view).
Wiggy
see
Been by Matfen a few times but never visited. Some similarities but ....
https://www.matfenhall.com/hotel/a-brief-history-of-matfen-hall/
and
http://images.visitkielder.com/Matfen-Hall/vn-medium-Exterior.jpg
added - still think it's the 'vanished' Orchard Main in Peeblesshire as it has strong links to the family.
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Deleted.
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Old OS map showing outline of Woodhorn House - to compare with OPs pic and Jamie's outline of Orchard Main.
http://maps.nls.uk/view/101027202#zoom=6&lat=1306&lon=3643&layers=BT
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Looking at the (Conservatory & corner fancy garden side) footprint of Kirkhouse (Near Orchard main) looks similar to your manor house photo
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Looking at the (Conservatory & corner fancy garden side) footprint of Kirkhouse (Near Orchard main) looks similar to your manor house photo
Kirkhouse is still standing though and looks very different to the house pictured in the photo: http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-42022287.html
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Looking at the (Conservatory & corner fancy garden side) footprint of Kirkhouse (Near Orchard main) looks similar to your manor house photo
Kirkhouse is still standing though and looks very different to the house pictured in the photo: http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-42022287.html
Agreed. Nothing like the one in the original photo https://media.onthemarket.com/properties/2774984/doc_0_0.pdf
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Looking at the (Conservatory & corner fancy garden side) footprint of Kirkhouse (Near Orchard main) looks similar to your manor house photo
Kirkhouse is still standing though and looks very different to the house pictured in the photo: http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-42022287.html
Agreed. Nothing like the one in the original photo https://media.onthemarket.com/properties/2774984/doc_0_0.pdf
I agree, yet looking at a footprint on old maps of manor houses of interest ** can help eliminate or research further as members have done with Kirkhouse too eliminate. Keep looking. ;)
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Another article, you'd think there'd be a photo of him with the house in the background somewhere. I wonder if his brother the Marquess of Salisbury and 3 times PM ever visited?
http://www.bordertelegraph.com/news/15481811.Tweeddale_s_History__The_history_of_Lord_Cecil_from_Traquair/
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Hello
Glad somebody has mentioned Salisbury.
This Cecil family had extensive links with other families. Sometimes an Estate will be owned by the same family for 100s of years, but you will also find property acquisitions and Marriage Settlements relating to property.
For example, it could be a house of a family, that the Cecils have married into, or visited?
I also noticed Cecil and Salisbury, from a Sackville search ...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Gascoyne-Cecil,_2nd_Marquess_of_Salisbury
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We have three of these types of Albums from my Mother's side (who were in Service, Butler, etc), my family members sat out on lawns in the Summer, with various sizes and styles of houses behind, including those houses the Family were visiting too, like the 'in-Laws' houses, the houses of business or political associates.
I said to my Great Aunt once, whose house is this, they were friends of our Master.
Just because the house appears in a Cecil album, doesn't necessarily mean Cecil directly owned or occupied the house.
Mark
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Your correct there Mark, Lord Arthur Cecil (with a few middle names) is mentioned in a few Wills, as executer or beneficiary to property in a few counties, in England, Ireland and Scotland (maybe Wales ?) but he originally stems more from Hatfield in Berkshire related to the Duke of Devonshire. (From Gale newspapers)
I looked at most mentioned online (also demolished ) upper middle size type manor houses, to the big stately homes building footprints on old maps and online photo's with named familes who lived in them, for Northumberland online, yet nothing coming up and from your suggestions with my none findings, its suggests a full UK search including offshore islands
Ancestry of Cecil spouses family names (Of big house estates) and residences maybe the next step.
Burk's peerage books may help.
??? ??? ??? ??? ???
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Ancestry of Cecil spouses family names (Of big house estates) and residences maybe the next step.
We'll look forward to your discoveries :)
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Ancestry of Cecil spouses family names (Of big house estates) and residences maybe the next step.
We'll look forward to your discoveries :)
:-X
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Ancestry of Cecil spouses family names (Of big house estates) and residences maybe the next step.
We'll look forward to your discoveries :)
I'm not that optimistic, nobles them days, like some wood ants - some have multi queen colonies & others have singular queen nests. (At boundary war with each nest)
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Trying to pick up on a few clues from the photo:
There look to be hills in the background, and the photo was taken from a slightly elevated position - about first floor level. So I don't think it can be anywhere really flat.
To me the house looks to have been built all in the same style, with little evidence of dirt, weathering or aging, or extensions of a later date. This suggests to me that it might be 19th century, built in a ~17th century style.
I think there's some kind of coat of arms in the stonework above the window at the near end of the orangery. Carol (OP) - might you be able to scan just this at a high resolution, please?
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Agree with arthurk - the house looks to be Victorian built in the style of Elizabethan with a touch of Georgian thrown in. Prosperous Victorian businessmen were prone to displaying their new-found wealth in such a fashion.
Doesn't help with the location but if it was built by a Victorian industrialist, then up north would seem favourite.
AJ
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There are a couple if things about this house that seem a bit odd to me:
There does not appear to be a grand entrance or a drive which you might expect for a grand house - I can't even see an obvious front door.
The glazed wing/extension on the left has some flimsy looking stairs leading up to it. Does anyone have any idea what that wing is? Not a conservatory - there is not enough glass is there? An Orangery?
Might this photo be the back of the "house"?
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My wondered if it was that it was taken from the back or side of the house. :-\
Thought that the minute I first saw it.
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Trying to pick up on a few clues from the photo:
There look to be hills in the background, and the photo was taken from a slightly elevated position - about first floor level. So I don't think it can be anywhere really flat.
To me the house looks to have been built all in the same style, with little evidence of dirt, weathering or aging, or extensions of a later date. This suggests to me that it might be 19th century, built in a ~17th century style.
I think there's some kind of coat of arms in the stonework above the window at the near end of the orangery. Carol (OP) - might you be able to scan just this at a high resolution, please?
To the left of the conservatory there seems to be a high peak hill on the skyline that could suggest Wales, Lake district, Derbyshire peaks or Scotland
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I was given an old carte de visite photo album containing about 60 images. I'm curious about the previous owners, and posted a story about it on my Family Photo Reunion blog. I'm particularly interested in learning which manor house is featured in a photo inside the album. Can you help?
You can read more about the picture and the other images in the album at:
http://familyphotoreunion.blogspot.com/2013/06/mystery-manor-house-carte-de-visite.html
Thanks,
Carol
Hi Carol,
I'm not up on the type of photo as what the 'old carte de visite' are ?
May seem a bit of a daft question to ask :-[ ? but here goes ???
Is the photo print in a cardboard surround square or oval frame ? if so!, have you had the photo out to check the cover part of the photo by the frame or the back of the photo.
:)
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Good afternoon,
Telepathic message from SB, it's WAI 12 before a rebuild in 1908ish. His best friends mothers cousin twice removed fathers daughter never lived there. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
John915
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Good afternoon,
Telepathic message from SB, it's WAI 12 before a rebuild in 1908ish. His best friends mothers cousin twice removed fathers daughter never lived there. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
John915
WAI 12 ? 'Newton le Willows'
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Good afternoon,
Telepathic message from SB, it's WAI 12 before a rebuild in 1908ish. His best friends mothers cousin twice removed fathers daughter never lived there. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
John915
I was getting the same telepathic message too. He would have loved this.
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You're such a stirrer John. ;)
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Good evening,
Just couldn't resist it Ruskie, too good an opportunity to pass up.
John915
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I think dobfarm has asked the most telling question so far. Is there anything on the back of the photo? A lot of cdv's have the photographer's name on the back.
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Hi everyone,
I do apologize for not noticing all the replies to my post about this manor house. So many great ideas here. I appreciate all of the hunting and research that had gone into your thoughtful replies. Regarding the photo itself, I can't say if there is anything written on the back of the manor house image. It's actually pasted (very well) into the photo album. I don't believe I could remove it without damaging the photograph. The paper used for this image is not as heavy as cabinet card or cdv card stock. Most of the cartes in the photo album were taken in the 1870s and 1880s, with a few from the 1860s.
Dobfarm: the cdvs are the type of photo that were produced on cardboard stock and the size of calling cards, roughly 2 1/8" X 3 1/2". They began to be produced in the late 1850s and were most popular in the 1860s and 1870s. The first cdvs were on a thinner card with one or two thin lines as a border, and by the 1880s the cardstock had become heavier and the borders much more ornate.
I have to agree that the manor seems to be in a state of upgrade...it's very bare around the house, and I wonder if renovation work on the house and grounds is the cause. I also think this photo was taken of the back of the house, perhaps to show off the garden.
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Is there any indication from the album that the photos were inserted in date order, if so that could give an approx date of this photo?
I've had a play around with the photo and sharpened it up somewhat to give me the following thoughts.
There is definitely a crest of some sort on the roof of the 'orangery'. Can you do a higher resolution scan of the photo and post it in sections if necessary?
The mark on the gable end above the 'orangery' appears to be a vertical slit window which was a common way of illuminating roof voids.
I suspect that the gable end just to the left of the gable end with the triple curved detailing has the same detailing.
The building to the left appears to be detailed slightly differently to the 'main' building so might be an earlier building or an ancillary building providing support to the 'main' building, i.e. kitchens etc., servant quarters etc.
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I've scanned the image as high as my feeble scanner will allow. There are definitely hills around this property.
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Another...
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The photographs are not arranged in any chronological order, nor do they appear to be grouped according to families or location. It could be that they were mixed up over the years. I don't think that this album belonged to Lord Cecil, or his immediate family necessarily. It could have easily been someone who was connected, even very distantly. There are a couple of obviously "royal" images in the bunch, one of "Royal Group at Dumlanrig Castle, October 1869" that included Prince & Princess Christian, E. Schulz, Sackville Stopford, Esq., Lady Marsham, Edward Balfour, Earl of Dalkeith, Mrs. George Grant Gordon, Miss Thynne..., Duke of Buccleuch, etc. Another is a cdv image of Queen Alexandra (then Princess of Wales), taken by Mayall in Nov 1862. I found a copy of this one at the National Portrait Gallery. Mine differs slightly from the one at NPG, mine does not have the imprint H.R.H Princess of Wales on it, and the photographer's location is given as "London & Brighton" not "244 Regent Street."
https://www.npg.org.uk/collections/search/portrait/mw130425/Queen-Alexandra?LinkID=mp00072&search=sas&sText=Queen+Alexandra&wPage=1&role=sit&rNo=37
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Hello
1b. Lord Arthur Cecil (The Mount, Lymington, Hampshire), b. 3rd July 1851 ;
First m. 8th January 1874, Elizabeth Ann da. of Joseph Wilson of Woodhorn Manor, d. 11th October 1901 ;
Secondly, 4th November 1902, Baroness Frederica da. of Otto Baron von Klenck [Austria]; and has issue 1c to 2c.
1c. Arthur William James Cecil, Lieut Grenadier Guards, b. 4th April 1875.
2c. Reginald Edward Cecil, Capt. 21st Lancers, born 15th November 1878; m. 1st February 1902, Mary Beatrice da. of Henry Drayton Pilcher ; and has issue 1d.
1d. Margaret Mary Cecil, b. 21st July 1903.
2b. Lady Margaret Elizabeth Cecil (Oakdown, Burwash), b. 30th October 1854.
...
Details here, pages 224 & 223
https://archive.org/stream/plantagenetrollo00ruvi
The Mount, Lymington, Hampshire was put on the property market by Lady Arthur Cecil, Sale date advertised was 30th October 1919, but I cannot find a photo :( .
The house was situated 2 miles from Lymington Town and 3 miles from Brockenhurst Junction, (Railway).
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Not the house, but:-
The Mount, Bishopstoke (different address), is a similar style (tall chimneys & Bays), but definitely not your photo.
Mark
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The feature on the end of the 'orangery' appears to be hollow, just a surround to make a decorative feature, leastways however I tweak the photo I can't see anything other than the same white colour as the roof of the 'orangery'.
The gable end has looped decorative features and no crest that I can see. The recessed square above it might contain something but it's too indistinct to make out anything other than some fuzziness.
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Here is some more on the family history.
Lord Arthur Cecil was the Son of Lord Salisbury by his second marriage to Lady Mary Sackville West. See the reference to Earl of Derby.
I also noticed in the newspapers the Cecil family had a link to a farmhouse in the Weald built by Derby.
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Reginald Edward Cecil of Passford, Lymington (re amounts left 1932).
An Alliance Between Cecil and Wortley reported 1906
Arthur William James Cecil married Miss Beatrice Stuart Wortley.
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There is a claim here that Cecil was also part of the Exeter family ...
Passford, Lymington
Passford House Hotel may be close to the action, but when you first set eyes on this 16th Century house, you will be struck by the peace and tranquillity to be found in this quiet corner of England.
Passford House was formerly the home of Lord and Lady Arthur Cecil, Queen Victoria’s private secretary. The Cecil family being part of the Exeter and Salisbury families.
Lord and Lady Arthur Cecil were here until 1939 when they moved to Cranbourne in Dorset.
http://www.passfordhousehotel.co.uk/about-us/
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The house might be anywhere, the Cecil family had plenty of links to Nobility and Gentry.
Mark
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The Mount, Lymington, Hampshire was put on the property market by Lady Arthur Cecil, Sale date advertised was 30th October 1919, but I cannot find a photo :( .
The house was situated 2 miles from Lymington Town and 3 miles from Brockenhurst Junction, (Railway).
The Mount, Lymington is now Passford House Hotel.
http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=18&lat=50.7783&lon=-1.5755&layers=6&right=BingHyb
https://www.old-maps.co.uk/#/Map/430053/97696/12/100642
https://www.old-maps.co.uk/#/Map/430053/97696/10/101320
https://www.thenewforest.co.uk/accommodation/passford-house-hotel-p778891
I can't see any resemblance.
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Passford House Hotel may be close to the action, but when you first set eyes on this 16th Century house, you will be struck by the peace and tranquillity to be found in this quiet corner of England.
Passford House was formerly the home of Lord and Lady Arthur Cecil, Queen Victoria’s private secretary. The Cecil family being part of the Exeter and Salisbury families.
I see you edited this in after I posted about the hotel. You have made my posting look rather silly.
Added: now you have edited more in.
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Hello Jen
I agree, I cannot see a resemblance either to the original poster's photo and Passford House, Lymington, occupied by the Son of Lord Arthur Cecil, when he died.
I did add some information about Passford House now being a hotel, to keep it together with the 1932 image originally posted which accompanied the reference to Reginald Edward Cecil of Passford, Lymington and his Will (the amount he left) reported 1932.
Lady Margaret Elizabeth Cecil, Oakdown, Burwash. The Marquis of Salisbury, d. 1868, and the Lady Mary married July 5th, 1870, Edward Henry, fifteenth Earl of Derby. She died at Holwood, Kent, 1899, and by her will left £1,300 towards the support of the alms-houses in this parish, which she had for many years partly maintained.
https://archive.org/stream/cu31924028282154#page/n335/mode/2up/search/Burwash
By the way I am not saying it is Oakdown, Burwash, either.
But handy to find each Cecil (and possibly related family) residence and rule them out.
Mark
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I think the photograph is of 'Poltalloch House', Argyll, Scotland.
Poltalloch house was built by William Burn between 1849 and 1853 as a new seat for the Malcolm family who had long held the lands of Poltalloch. Now a ruin.
https://canmore.org.uk/collection/573397
https://holeousia.com/time-passes-listen/ruins/poltalloch/
Regards
Trish
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Yes it is - Trish, I am hugely impressed! Do tell us how you found it, please.
Meanwhile, some more pictures:
https://www.thecastlesofscotland.co.uk/the-best-castles/other-articles/poltalloch/
A whole selection here (Trish also found this site):
https://canmore.org.uk/site/39528/poltalloch-house-and-gardens?display=image&per_page=41
I thought this one might be closest to our original:
https://canmore.org.uk/collection/558813
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I can see it as being the same house if the photo was taken 90 degrees to the left?
Well done, Trish!
One minor point: William Burn was the artist of the Poltalloch House picture, not the builder.
I only point this out as there is an article in the Aberdeen Press and Journal 20 May 1857 where the builders, Messrs. Parker, are being discussed as potential bidders on a new school in Aberdeen. They list a few of his more recent buildings, and perhaps there is something there that the OP may recognize as being related to the Cecil family.
Sandon Hall in Staffordshire for the Earl of Harrowby
Poltalloch House Argyllshire, for Neil Malcolm Esq.
Bangor Castle, for Mr Ward, County Downs
Castlewellan, County Down, Lord Annesley (in progress)
large elaborate warehouse for Samuel Wetts, Esq (mayor of Manchester)
offices for Messrs Naylor (Aberdeen bankers)
The newspaper also posted the estimate, in which Messrs Parker signed the bid as John Parker & Sons.
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Wonderful, Trish! I am in awe of your research skills. Do tell us how you found this. It must be the same place. The "Poltalloch House General view of west re-entrant and conservatory" image really cinches it for me.
Now to figure out the connection with the photographs inside the album. Thank you so much for solving this mystery!
Carol
Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
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Thanks all for your kind comments :)
Really pleased to help identify the house. I noticed that the building had some striking similarities to Stoke Rochford Hall in Lincolnshire, designed by William Burn, which (eventually) revealed Poltalloch House.
I'm sure that some of the amazing Rootschat researchers will be able to reveal a connection to your album.
Regards
Trish
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Well found Trish! :)
So sad to see this once grand house in such a poor state today. A tragedy. :'(
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Hello
Thank you Trish, it was great to put a name to such a grand house!
June 1893
The Scotsman announces the death Mr. John Malcolm of Poltalloch, D.L. and J.P. for Argyleshire, which took place Poltalloch House, Kilmartin, the family residence, on Tuesday night. The deceased gentleman, who had reached the advanced age of 97 years ...
July 1893
Lochgilphead - Kilmartin.
Property of Colonel J. Wingfield Malcolm, C.B., Poltalloch House, Kilmartin,
the Stables, Coachman's accomodation and Coach House destroyed by fire caused by the lightning.
[John Wingfield Malcolm]
November 1904
FIRE AT POLTALLOCH HOUSE.
Fire was yesterday morning discovered to have broken out in Poltalloch House, Lochgilphead, the residence of Colonel E.N. Malcolm, C.B. The flames spread rapidly, and an hour after the outbreak was discovered, the whole roof was involved ...
A newspaper says the family had extensive Estates in Argyleshire, as well as in England and the West Indies.
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National Library of Scotland
A new collection of marches, quicksteps, strathspeys, reels & jigs. consisting of 120 tunes. Edited by John McLachlan, late piper to Neill Malcolm Esqr. Of Poltalloch.
https://digital.nls.uk/special-collections-of-printed-music/archive/105010655
The British Museum
Some Manuscripts of this family were deposited in the British Museum.
(Some Estates Manuscripts originally deposited by families with the British Museum, London, are now with the British Library, London, Dept of Manuscripts).
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Carol, if you are going to do something with the album and item, I think the best thing you can do, is to offer it to the Scottish National Archives, or The National Library of Scotland, Edinburgh, where the photographs and item/s can be accessed by all who wish to see them and are also more likely to be permanently preserved in a fire proof and proper controlled environment.
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Over the years I have seen 1,000s of these items at UK Flea Markets and Sales, many left to fate when a house was cleared.
Around 2005 my family were going to let photographs of my Mother's side going back to 1855 - 1860 (two pictures go back to the early days of photography) go to House Clearers, until I realised and saved them.
Mark
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Well spotted indeed Trish! Every stone of this house was paid for by the blood of slaves, the Malcolm's (MacCallum's) owned sugar plantations right across the Caribbean, they treated their own tenants no better in Argyle, a clearance of the people in 1848 caused a riot.
It's no loss!
Skoosh.
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Well spotted indeed Trish! Every stone of this house was paid for by the blood of slaves, the Malcolm's (MacCallum's) owned sugar plantations right across the Caribbean, they treated their own tenants no better in Argyle, a clearance of the people in 1848 caused a riot.
I had quite a surprise recently that English settlers in America still loyal to the British Crown, were effectively later kicked out of America in the late 18th Century and had to return to England, some to their ancestor's English County of departure.
I like a square of chocolate occasionally ;D ;D my family were supposed to have shipped sugar in England, according to family folklore.
Mark