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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Ebelvi on Monday 08 January 18 21:21 GMT (UK)
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Hi, I need some help to find more about Walter S Edwards.
USA Pennsylvania/Philadalphia census 1900 states he is born February 1861 in Canada/England.
Census states his father is born in England, mother born in Scotland.
I guess Canada/England is in West-Wellow/Romsey?
Cannot find birth or baptism record, to know his parents names ...
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Just for ref
1900
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M3WQ-BL8
And did they have a son who died?
Howard Mutter Edwards 1893
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JDG4-FWG
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Hello Ebelvi and a warm welcome to RootsChat :)
About the 1900 census....
Where it says Walter was born Canada Eng generally means he was born in English Canada, not England. With luck, some records may turn up.
PB
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I think you need to look to Montreal, Canada for Walter's birth records. His issue for a marriage record states that he was born in Montreal, Canada on 12th February 1861.
It may well be that his parents emigrated to Canada before he was born but they were born in England/Scotland.
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His death cert 1922 (on A*try) lists his name as Walter Steinhoff EDWARDS.
Father Samuel,mother not known.
Maureen
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Quote
'I guess Canada/England is in West-Wellow/Romsey?'
There is, indeed, a Canada Common near West Wellow, and I was getting quite excited for some local history, but it appears not to be.
So a photo, for proof:
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/442377
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In the Drouin Collection,
Walter Steinhoff son of Samuel Edwards and Mary Nicol
Montréal, Québec (Quebec)
Methodist.... Saint James Born 12th Feb 1861 bap 21 March 1861
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Their marriage is in the same collection, same church
19 JL 1852
Samuel Edwards batchelor of NEW YORK
Mary Nicol of Montreal
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Marriage, 19 July 1852, Montreal, Methodist St. James, Samuel Edwards of New York, bachelor, & Mary Nicol a minor of Montreal (Drouin Collection)
You beat me to it Willsy ;D
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How about this then...was just going to note it here with
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JKFS-MC4
when from a tree I came across with the parents... with children they have (but no census returns or Frederick)...1881
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01laq/
http://data2.collectionscanada.gc.ca/e/e327/e008162424.jpg
http://data2.collectionscanada.gc.ca/e/e327/e008162425.jpg
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1891 Canada, St. Louis Ward, Montreal
Samuel Edwards b. 1836 England, Methodist, father and mother b. England
Mary Edwards b. 1836 Scotland, Methodist, father and mother b. Scotland
Bella Edwards, daur., b. 1866 Quebec
Bapt. Isabella Nicol Edwards, Methodist St. James Montreal, born 13 Nov 1863 (differs from above census), bapt. 28 April 1864. Daughter of Samuel & Mary Edwards.
Canada Findagrave, Isabella Nicol Edwards, burial 14 Oct 1903, Mount Royal Cemetery, Montreal
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I was looking at that 1891 and have also come up with this 1871
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01lar/
Have a William twice, earlier one US
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I was looking at that 1891 and have also come up with this 1871
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01lar/
Have a William twice, earlier one US
I think maybe the enumerator got it mixed up and should have recorded the younger William as Walter, the age fits.
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Wow, what a fantastic job you all did there! Many, many thanks!
A real breakthrough. I was really off track. The last few months I managed to make a tree with ancestors up to grandparents in sussex, but it was based on a Walter Edwards (not Walter S), and his mother not exactly from Scotland. What a waste of time... I should have discovered Rootschat many months ago...
@Willsy:
1/
Yes, (I guess) Howard Mutter is a child they lost.
The 1900 census states that Margaret is mother of 5 but 3 still alive. So there is another one: I guess this one (stillborn baby):
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:J6S3-8H8 (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:J6S3-8H8)
2/ Frederick Edwards
The death certificate states he was 63 years old in 1935. This means born about 1872. Hence he must be about 8-9 years old in the 1881 census.
I do read a Frederick in the 1881 census! The youngest child is 8 years old, but the name is difficult to read: Frederic (see attachment)
@MaureeninNY:
Any suggestions where the name Steinhoff (Walter Steinhoff Edwards) comes from? Probably family related?
For Samuel we miss exact place and date born/baptised in England. This makes it difficult to take it further, finding Samuel's parents...
Samuel married in 1852 in Canada and was at that time bachelor in NewYork. So he must have emigrated (to NewYork?) before 1852. This means he should pop up in a 1841 -or perhaps also 1851 - England census. But there are too many hits to choose from (FalmilySrch.) ???
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Does anyone have a sub on Ancestry? There is a Samuel Edwards on the New York Passenger Lists 1820 - 1957.
There is also the one above which is US and Canada Passenger and Immigration Lists Index 1500s to 1900s which may be Samuel.
I don't have a sub so I can't see the details.
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Samuel Edwards age 23 male mariner
on next line
Edward Edwards age 29 male mariner both born England
arriving in New York on 15th November 1858 having departed from Galway (last port)
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New York Passenger ?
Arriving on 23rd January 1880 Samuel Edwards age 45, American, and Mary Edwards, 38, wife, similarly American, left from Bristol arriving at New York.
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Thanks for looking Chempat. Doesn't look like they are the poster's Edwards family does it.
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Just found a marriage in the Drouin collection
Walter Steinhoff married Anna Nicol
4th Jun 1861 Montréal, Québec (Quebec)
Presbyterian Erskine
John Nicol is a witness, not unlike the signature for John Nicol on Walter's baptism looking at the 'N' I think but I would be much happier if someone could have a look too, as this record is Prebyterian
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Just saw that one,willsy!
I think Ann* dies the next year (1862). I THINK it says she died at the residence of her father John Nicol,brush maker of McGill? St. She was 20yrs and 8 months?
Maureen
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Just unravelling this one too
Drouin
Isabella Nicol marries Rich Warmington 1864 Methodist Saint James
In the Notarial Records, 1637-1935
Mary Nicol
14 Mars 1901 (14 Mar 1901)
Montréal, Québec (Quebec), Canada
She is as Dame Mary Nicol, wife of Samuel Edwards to executors of last will of Dame Isabella Nicol wife of R Warmington
There's a later sale in the records for 1905 for Mary
EDIT
burial for Isabella
https://old.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=108970993
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And this one lists daughter Isabella's death
Drouin
Edwards
Burial 1903
Burial Location: Montréal, Québec (Quebec)
Methodist Saint James
She died in Jersey City N.J. 14 Oct 1903
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Sorry Jool, just realised you had posted Isabella Edwards burial
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Does this look possible for the family:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X19L-6L1
In 1881 I think the Ann WILSON living with the WARMINTONs just might be her mother :
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01lay/
1841 Scotland census has a John NICOL in Barony Middle Calton with wife M Agnes? and children Mary and Isabella. He's a brush maker which fits.
Sorry-have to go. Dinner is late!
Maureen
PS-Well done,willsy!
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Thanks Maureeen and hats off to you
IGI...Parents John Nicol and Ann Wilson
Ann Nicol
birth: 14 July 1836
christening: 24 July 1836
BEATH, FIFE, SCOTLAND
John Nicol
birth: 21 July 1840
BEATH, FIFE, SCOTLAND
Isabella Nicol
birth: 23 July 1835
BARONY, LANARK, SCOTLAND
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Well found 2 marriages for both those areas!
JOHN Nicol and Ann Wilson for both
17 June 1832
Barony, Lanark, Scotland
1835
Beath, Fife, Scotland
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Just found a marriage in the Drouin collection
Walter Steinhoff married Anna Nicol
4th Jun 1861 Montréal, Québec (Quebec)
Presbyterian Erskine
John Nicol is a witness, not unlike the signature for John Nicol on Walter's baptism looking at the 'N' I think but I would be much happier if someone could have a look too, as this record is Prebyterian
I don't understand the above.
I think your Walter Steinhoff is not the Walter S Edwards.
Walter S Edwards was born 1861, not married in 1861.
He married Margaret A, not Anna Nicol.
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Hi everybody.
After going though the posts recently I have to admit I misinterpreted a few posts which lead to mixing up the "Walter Steinhoff" and "Walter Steinhoff Edwards". Mea Culpa.
Thanks for all the input.
(I might have a question related to the Samuel Edwards, but for clarity I'll start a new topic for that one).
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In the Drouin Collection,
Walter S (Steinhoff) son of Samuel Edwards and Mary Nicol
Montréal, Québec (Quebec)
Methodist.... Saint James Born 12th Feb 1861 bap 21 March 1861
Their marriage is in the same collection, same church
19 JL 1852
Samuel Edwards batchelor of NEW YORK
Mary Nicol of Montreal
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Hi again,
I still hope to find names of parents of Samuel Edwards, but my research leads nowhere... .
Samuel's second child is John, probably named after Mary Nicol's father John Nicol? Then maybe Samuel's first child William is named after his father?
His mother's name would definitely help a lot for finding a possible birth certificate...
Am I correct that marriage record (Drouin Collection) of Samuel Edwards x Mary Nicol doesn't mention his parents names, and no Edwards parent act as witness?
Does Samuel's death certificate mention his parent's names?
Ontario death certificates seem to be accessible on Family*Srch and often contain lots of information such as parents of deceased. But for Quebec there seems to be only indexes or "Find*Grave" burials showing only name and date of deceased... Does Drouin Collection have death certificate of Samuel Edwards? I have no acces to Drouin collection...
Samuel must have died (probably in Quebec?) after Quebec census of 1891.
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1871 – Samuel 40 yrs - Methodist.
http://data2.collectionscanada.ca/1871/jpg/4395440_00122.jpg (http://data2.collectionscanada.ca/1871/jpg/4395440_00122.jpg)
1881 – 50 yrs
http://data2.collectionscanada.gc.ca/e/e327/e008162424.jpg (http://data2.collectionscanada.gc.ca/e/e327/e008162424.jpg)
1891 – 55 yrs
http://central.bac-lac.gc.ca/.item/?app=Census1891&op=img&id=30953_148211-00213 (http://central.bac-lac.gc.ca/.item/?app=Census1891&op=img&id=30953_148211-00213)
Samuel year of birth must be about 1830-1835, or even 1825-1840 ?
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Thanks in advance for help!
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First, the marriage...
There are no parents listed. Witnesses are Amos (I think) Dance and Isabella Nichol.
And...
Samuel appears to be in the Montreal Directory at least through 1901. I think this might be him in the 1901 census with Mary and Bella. This census gives birthdates. Lines 37-39.
http://www.automatedgenealogy.com/census/ViewFrame.jsp?id=91421&highlight=37
PB
Added: if Samuel died in Quebec you will only get a parish record related to his burial. Civil registration of BMDs only began in Quebec in 1994 (yes!). Burial records do not normally give the parents of married adults but do usually have witnesses who may be family members.
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Looks awesome. Never expected to see full birth dates on a census...
I admit it would be difficult not to agree it's the correct family. But ...
1/ Bella.
If Bella (Isabella) is born 1871, then in the 1871 census she is a baby, or max 1 year old.
I don't understand how she then can be recorded as 7 year old in the 1871 census.
The 7 seems to be correct though, because it turns into 17 on 1881 census. But here same remark; 17 seems a lot for a girl that's still a 10 year old child if she's born in 1871...
The 1881 census looks a bit better, but still...
Do we have to be that flexible?
Or do we need confirmation of her birth date by finding birth certificate (probably Drouin Collection)?
2/ Mary.
No comments.
She states she's from England but should be Scotland. Common error I suppose.
3/ Samuel.
1929 quite acceptable for his age on 1871 and 1881 census.
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Just for nitpicking:
If the full dates of birth are correct, then the ages on april 1901 should be:
Samuel 69 instead of 71 (turns 70 in sept 1901)
Mary O.K. (The census guy might actually have knocked on the door on her birthday!)
Bella 29 not yet 30 (turns 30 in nov 1901)
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Birth/Baptism record search.
Problem is that baptism date might be very long time after birth date, sometimes even years later. I did a quick search in Family*Srch whether I could at least find a baptism in England for a date close after sept 12, 1829, but I cannot find a good candidate...
That's why names of parents are so crucial.
A few thoughts:
Immigration.
The census 1901 states Samuel and Mary both in 1840 immigrated to Canada.
Would that be from USA to Canada (Samuel came from New York) or from England to North America (USA+Canada)? Was moving from New York to Canada considered "immigration"?
If Samuel was born in 1829 and Mary in 1833 they both were children when emigrating in 1840 from England. I guess they emigrated with parents? Or is it possible at such a young age they emigrated without their parents?
Census in England.
If Samuel left England in 1840, or before if he first emigrated from England to New York, then There's no hope to find him on first census (1841) in England...
I'll do my best to check parish burial records.
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Well now!
I was wondering why Bella might have been in New Jersey and contemplating the fact that Samuel's last appearance in the Montreal Directory was 1903-04 where he is described as a second hand dealer. And no apparent burials for Samuel or Mary in Quebec.
Well....
I believe I might have located Samuel and Mary in Jersey City New Jersey in the 1905 census.
Samuel born England Sep 1929 (matches 1901 census) Retired Parents born England
Mary born Apr 1933 (matches 1901 census) born Scotland (more correct, I believe) Parents born Scotland
Immigration timing seems to be an issue though, as the couple apparently indicate they have been in the US 20 and 40 years respectively.
I can't post a link from the website I found this record on but would expect you could find it on the familysearch website as they seem to have US censuses (didn't look myself, though).
Bella....
Baptism in the Drouin Collection: posted earlier by Jool (reply #10)
Isabella Nichol Edwards
Born 30 Nov 1863 (so date of birth matches the census but not the year)
Baptized 28 Apr 1864
Parents Samuel and Mary Edwards
Both parents signed as witnesses
Census entry could possibly be an error of some sort.
Mary....
With her birthdate you might be able to find her birth in Scotland
https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk
This is a pay site but the indexes are free to use. You would have to pay for the record info.
So, much food for thought.
PB
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Eureka!!! I hope this is Samuel!
Death in Kennett Sq Chester County Pennsylvania
Samuel Edwards
Died 02 Mar 1911
Born 16 Sep 1829 England
Father William H Edwards b England
Mother Susan Farr b England
Informant Walter Edwards of Kennett Sq
It looks like Samuel and Mary were living in Kennett Sq in the 1910 census
Samuel 80 b England
Mary 77 b Scotland
Married 58 years (so 1852)
7 children born 1 deceased (Bella?)
Again, an issue with immigration dates. Samuel has 1846, Mary 1845.
Walter and Margaret and 2 of their children were also living in Kennett Sq in 1910
Added:
Wow! Looks like the correct Samuel! His will is on line on anc...try. It names his 6 surviving sons. You don't have a location in your profile but if you don't have world sub for ancestry you might check if your local public library subscribes to Ancestry Library Edition. This should give you access. I didn't look to see if familysearch has this record.
PB
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Well done PB
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Gosh, thanks dbree :)
PB
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Hi,
Ontario Deaths, York, Ontario Feb. 7, 1915, address 120 Cooper Ave.
Edwards, Mary, age 83, b. Scotland, widow, father John Nichol, mother unknown.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-D1LS-R4Y?i=89&cc=1307826
Ontario Trust Cemeteries, 4th from the bottom
Edwards, Mary, Prospect Cemetery, nearest relative F. Edwards, 120 Cooper Ave., plot owner
Fredk. E. Edwards
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DR19-N9C?i=17&cc=1627831
DB
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Polarbear, what a fantastic job you did there. Waw!
Took me some time to decorticate it.
I forgot Bella died in New Jersey. But I did have in mind Samuel might have moved to Pennsylvania where his son Walter S moved. But didn't know how to take action...
Amazing you found Samuel's second hand store in the Montreal Directory! I now managed to find the online record.
O.K. found on Fam*Srch the 1905 Census New Jersey.
O.K. Bella birth date in 1901 definitely wrong.
Not checked birthdate on your Scotlandspeople link yet.
O.K. Found on Fam*Srch 1910 census Kennet Sq. Also for son Walter and wife Margaret.
I don't know where you found the Samuel's burial info (Drouin Collection)? With name
parents! Amazing!
Found Samuel's grave on Find*grave !
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/153760669 (https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/153760669)
Born 16 Sep 1829, but death date is 21 Mar 1911 insead of your 02 Mar 1911 Or is it difference between death and burial (Seems much too long between dates)?
For Samuel's will on An*stry I'll check later.
Amazing how you manage to get so much info in two day's time!!
I go totally berserk on the immigration info on the censusses. Have same problem with 1900, 1910 and 1920 census for Walter + Margaret family...
With birthdate and parents of Samuel now in mind, I thought it would be easy finding his birth/baptism record / England, but unfortunately cannot find a valuable candidate ...
Same problem for Marriage of William and Susan (Susan can be Susanna).
I think I waste far too much time on Fam*Srch...
Last minute, I see there's new posting I have to read.
You all do such a great job!
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You are very welcome. We all work together to try and find the answers.
About Samuel...
I believe the findagrave entry for his death date is incorrect, although I will say the first entry on the death cert looks like a 21. The second and third entries below it read Mar 2, and at least one has 2nd. He was buried on 05 Mar.
Samuel's death cert isn't in the Drouin Collection....that collection pertains to Quebec for the most part. It is in Pennsylvania, Death Certificates, 1906-1965 on Ancest*y. Should be easy to find.
PB
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you might check if your local public library subscribes to Ancestry Library Edition. This should give you access.
You refer to local public library in England? Bad luck, I'm not living in England.. I'll contact local library to find out possibilities free access.
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Mary....
With her birthdate you might be able to find her birth in Scotland
https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk
This is a pay site but the indexes are free to use. You would have to pay for the record info.
I registered and got acces to indexes, but for birthday Mary Nichol there seems to be no matches before 1855, even with looser search options.
You need to look in Old Parish registers not Statutory Registers for births before 1855.
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Has your post just been altered, or am I losing the plot?
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Thanks for the Scottish records refresher, chempat. I rarely use the records and had forgotten there were different sets.
Ebelvi, not just libraries in England....libraries in other countries around the world subscribe to Ancestry Library Edition. I hope yours will be one of them.
PB
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Polarbear,
Found the index for birth Mary. Thanks!
Contacted local library. They have 'boardmeeting' tomorrow and will discuss A*stry issue...
Chempat,
I now see something went wrong. I first posted a few links to Fam*Srch, then modified my post adding query about A*try acces in library, but something must have gone wrong and lost links...
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Cannot find -with Fam*Srch- birth/baptism record of Samuel, nor record marriage of his parents. Maybe the record book containing both has been lost?
We actually don't know when Samuel moved to America so he might be in a census 1841 (or even 1851 census to get married in 1852?)
Don't know whether this might be related to our Samuel- and or parents;
A census 1841 samuel (age 11yrs fits) in a family William+Susannah (=Susan?)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MQRZ-WBM (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MQRZ-WBM)
A census 1841 with a William Edwards (bottom of list) in/with a Susan Farr family (?!)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MQTK-8ZM (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MQTK-8ZM)