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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Topic started by: Glynm on Tuesday 09 January 18 11:20 GMT (UK)
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Trying to find the parents of William and Ann Jones who lived on the farm Bancog, Capel Garmon, Denbighshire from around 1825 to the 1850’s before moving to Dolwyddelan, Caernarfonshire. Because there are so many Jones’s it is proving difficult finding the right one.
The censuses from 1851 to 1881 consistently point to William being born between April 1789 and April 1790 while Ann was born between April 1796 and April 1797 and the place of their birth was Capel Garmon. The couple were married in Capel Garmon on 30th October 1819 no parents’ names are given only the two witnesses William Jones and John Jones. Their first child, another William Jones, was born the following year. They had nine children named in order William, John, Margaret, Anne, Elinor, Hannah, Gwen, Elizabeth and Humphrey.
Looking at the baptism records on Findmypast there seems to be two possibilities for Ann
1796 June 10th Anne daughter of William Jones of Plas yn Rhos by Margaret his Wife
1797 May 28th Anne daughter of William Vaughan of Unys by Eleanor his Wife
The first one being my favourite without any proof. Could the father be the William Jones who was a witness?
There are more possibilities for William:
1789
May 19th William son of William Jones Garthgarmon by Margaret his Wife
June 30th William son of Humphrey Jones of Tybrith Uchaf by Margaret his Wife
November 2nd William son of John Williams of Garthgarmon by Eleanor his Wife
1790
April 20th William son of Henry Jones of Tybrith Uchaf by Anne his Wife
Any ideas on how to proceed from here would be gratefully accepted.
Glyn
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Hi Glyn
Looking at the children's names, I would think that there's a good chance of father's being John and William and mother's being Margaret and Eleanor/Elinor.
I've had this problem with my Jones lines and found that the only way to solve it was by following all the families - for infant deaths, other marriages, other children. It's tedious. Also, check for wills.
I'll have a look later today to see if I can see anything that jumps out.
Gadget
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Hi Gadget
I agree with your first point with the proviso that a few of my ancestors from that period started off with a patronymic name and then changed it to a standard surname. In one case there were two brothers with the same parents and different second names. Makes life interesting when researching a family. However, going on your theory it looks like John Williams and his wife Eleanor are the strong contenders to be William’s parents.
A couple of possible clues that might lead somewhere or could just be red herrings
1. From the children’s baptism records it appears that the family attended the nearby Siloam Congregational Chapel. There is newspaper report in welsh http://www.rootschat.com/links/01law/ it concerns the death of the chapel minister John Roberts (1784-1869). Although I am nowhere fluent in welsh I gather he had a peer and neighbour John Jones who lived at Bancog. They both started preaching in Capel Garmon around 1815 but John Jones moved to the Green, Denbigh some time before 1823 which I think was about the time William and Ann moved to Bancog. Could this John Jones be William’s brother and also the witness on the marriage register?
2. In the 1851 Census for Bancog (Llanrwst 1403/18/35/4) there is a nephew called William Jones (again grr!!) aged 14. In the 1861 Census the second son John is a farmer at Coedmor (Coed Mawr) Dolwyddelan (Llanrwst 4306/2/16). There is a carter working for him called William Jones aged 24. Could this be the nephew? If so he was born in Penmachno around 1837. If I could find his parents it might be possible to find their baptism records in Capel Garmon.
Looking in the wills for Capel Garmon there is no John Williams and only one William Jones who mentions nephews and nieces but no sons and daughters. I will keep looking under Llanrwst.
Glyn
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Hi Glyn
I'm having problems with my laptop/RC - on a go slow and hanging!
I found 3 baptisms for a William Jones, b. Penmachno circa 1837. Thre were 2 non-conformist bpts and one C of E/W. My link then went down and I'm still having a few problems. You could try FreeReg for the non-c ones and I think the CofE one ould be on Family search.
I know only too well about the seesaw patronymics - I've had it with Jones, Elis and Roberts. In those days I was living in Scotland and I just had the Clwyd FHS booklets,Nat lib contact and lots of A3 paper. The nearest FS centre was only open 2 days a week and was a 2 hour drive and a 2month wait for records!
Gadget
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My knowledge of Welsh is limited,but I'm fairly sure the "obituary" below for William Jones says his father W.Jones is still alive in 1882 in Dolyddelen(sic),aged 93,and he can be found with Anne in the 1881 census,with the dates you suggest in a property called Pistyll Gwyn
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01lax/
Regards
Roger
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Right clicking on the excerpt and selecting Translate will give you a rough translation.
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Thanks for that Gadget.
I realise there is not new information,but I thought the age given for William(senior) at that date might help with distinguishing baptisms.
Regards
Roger
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Thank you gadget I have found them. Fortunately the non-conformist scans are on Findmypast and it looks like transcriber has made a mistake on both of them. They were both born in Dolwyddelen. Findmypast also has the transcribed C of E record parents Owen and Ellen (Elinor) Jones. I have found them in the 1841 Census which indicates they were born between 1806 and 1811. I have checked for Owen in the Capel Garmon baptisms but cannot make a match with any of the couples I listed previously. To check for EllenI would have to find Owen and Ellen's marriage record.
Thank you Despair William Snr's age in 1882 roughly corroborates with the Census in 1881. You have given me another avenue to check using the Congregational Journal for the John Jones who went to Denbigh.
Glyn
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Also his age in an obituary in 1885 was 96
http://newspapers.library.wales/view/3131724/3131732/22/bancog
Sadly gives little family info, just that he spent his early years in Bancog (and mentions Coetmawr )
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Thank you Mabel I had not seen this obituary. The interesting sentence to me is "Treuliodd flynyddoedd cyntaf ei oes yn Bancog, Capel Garmon." Am I interpreting this correctly as his first years were spent at Bancog rather than early years? This could almost imply that he was born at Bancog.
I took the plunge last week and sent off for Clwyd FHS booklets for Capel Garmon Parish Records now waiting for them to arrive.
Glyn
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Yes - first years
Have found something more useful (Bancog mis-read by the OCR, so didn;t come up in my original search)
http://newspapers.library.wales/view/4302064/4302069/52/
Born in Bancog, Trybrith Uchaf, 29 March 1789, son of the late Humphrey. After marrying he moved to a cottage/smallholding nearby, moving into Bancog when his father died. His wife Anne is the daughter of William Jones [yes another one, sorry!] Plas-y-Rhos.
The article continues with his work at Siloam. He moved from Capel Garmon to Blaenau, Dolyddelen, to a smallholding called Coetmawr. Every Sabbath he would walk from there to the chapel without a stick, much to the surprise of all
He had 6 daughters, some still alive, including Mrs Williams, Benar View, Dolyddelen, and 4 sons including William Jones, Bancog, who died recently. His brother was the late Rev John Jones, Green, nr Denbigh, whose son is the Rev D. Lloyd Jones, currently in Patagonia. Another brother preaches for the Independents and lives in Newtown. One brother, Pugh Jones, emigrated to America over 60 yrs ago and settled near Utica.
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Wow Mabel you certainly have come up with some golden nuggets of information with that newspaper article. It ties up a number of clues I had, but could not join the dots. Once the parish records arrive I should hopefully be able to go a lot further back. I am just surprised that William left it until his third son Humphrey to be named after his father it is usually the first unless there was one born previously but died young.
I'll have to ask you to do a detective job on finding my main paternal line beyond the ubiquitous John Jones. ;D
Many many thanks.
Glyn