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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Yorkshire (West Riding) => Topic started by: mikegall on Tuesday 09 January 18 14:42 GMT (UK)
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I am hoping someone might be able to help me with a Sheffield related brick wall I have been unable to break through for several years. I am trying to find records for the birth of my Gt Grandfather, James Johnston and the marriage of my 2x Gt Grandparents. I believe these events happened around Sheffield but there is a distinct gap in the records I have been able to find.
Details: 2 x Gt Grandparents
Charles Johnston born bet 1827-29 Monaghan, Ireland
Harriet Thompson born abt 1823 Sheffield.
Details: Children
James Johnston abt 1852 Sheffield (no birth record found)
Phoebe Johnston abt 1855 Sheffield (no birth record found)
Mary E Johnston abt 1857 Masbrough (no birth record found)
Harriet Johnston abt 1858 Sheffield (no birth record found)
Charles Joseph Johnston 1860 Liverpool (birth record found)
Edward Johnston 1862 Liverpool (birth record found)
Amy M Johnston 1864 Liverpool (birth record found)
Timeline:
1851 Census – Charles seems to be working as a Tailor in Clitheroe
1851 – Presumed marriage of Charles and Harriet
1851 – My Gt Grandfather, James, is born in Sheffield
1861 – Family is living at 3 Brown Court, Liverpool. Charles listed as Tailor Journeyman
1871 – Family is in Widnes at 36 Lugsdale Road. , Charles listed as Master Tailor
I cannot find birth or baptism records for the first 4 children born 1852-1858 nor can I find a marriage record for Charles or Harriet.
I have a public tree on Ancestry I can provide a link for with more info. I wasn't sure if I should do that or not in this post.
Any clues or where to look next would be greatly appreciated.
Many thanks
Mike
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Looking at your timeline Charles Johnston hasn't been recorded on census as living Sheffield. Have you considered the first four children may have been Harriet's but not Charles' and therefore not registered as Johnstone's?
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I hadn’t, but that’s a very good point.
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I'm working on it.
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Best I can come up with. If them - dates and places of birth fit - perhaps Charles changed his surname for some reason.
MCMAHON, MARY ELLEN JOHNSON
GRO Reference: 1856 J Quarter in ROTHERHAM Volume 09C Page 415
MCMAHON, JAMES JOHNSON
GRO Reference: 1851 S Quarter in SHEFFIELD Volume 22 Page 700
MCMAHON, HARRIET JOHNSON
GRO Reference: 1858 M Quarter in ROTHERHAM Volume 09C Page 413
MAHON, PHOEBE JOHNSON
GRO Reference: 1854 S Quarter in OF ECCLESALL BIERLOW Volume 09C
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Possibly Charles and Harriet in 1851
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SP9M-B81
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Marriages Mar 1851, Sheffield vol 22, page 455
Charles Mcmahon a Harriet Johnson is on the same page
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Details: 2 x Gt Grandparents
Charles Johnston born bet 1827-29 Monaghan, Ireland
Harriet Thompson born abt 1823 Sheffield.
On the marriage I quoted above, she's 28 and he's 23, so the ages fit.
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Thanks for this Libby, I'll need to take some time to consider the possibility. I'm not sure about the name change idea. I've spoken to several branches of the Johnston line and they all make note that Charles came from Ireland nothing like this has ever been mentioned. Not sure how I would progress this either. I guess DNA might help but I'd need samples from multiple branches of his descendants.
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I understand and agree with your caution. What struck me with the records I posted was the coincidences. All Mcmahon children born right year and place, mother's maiden name JOHNSON. The couple on the marriage certificate being of the right ages. Charles Mcmahon's occupation at marriage and on 1851census is tailor.
It actually wasn't unknown for people to change their surnames and move town. I have it in my own family history, however, I knew more about my ancestor and his parents than you know about yours and was able to prove the name change eventually, it did though take a lot of research.
I'll continue searching and try to find 'something' to tie it all together. Do you have death records for Charles and Harriet? Also marriages for their children?
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Thank you for your continuing help. I have messaged you a link to my tree on Ancestry, although I didn't ask first if you had an account!
Having looked again the thing that worries me about you theory is that I have birth certificates for some of the other children which show the mothers maiden name as formally Thompson.
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I looked for possible marriages for Charles and Harriet's daughters born in Yorkshire. I had thought perhaps one of them lived long enough to be on the 1939 register and we could then have their exact birth date and see if it matched with the Mcmahon births in year and qrt. Unfortunately I didn't glean any definite marriages as the marriages I did find were probably civil marriages, so no parish records in Ancestry's Lancashire collection to prove father's name.
A possible for Phoebe: Marriages Sep 1878, Prescott, vol 8b page 1023. Phoebe Mary Johnston on same page John Burgess (not sure if your Phoebe had the middle name Mary)
1881 census, 49, Lacey St Widnes. RG11; Piece: 3725; Folio: 52; Page: 40
John Burgess 27, Over Cheshire
Phoebe M. Burgess 26, Sheffield
John Young Burgess 1, Widnes
BURGESS, JOHN YOUNG. Mother's maiden name JOHNSTON
GRO Reference: 1879 D Quarter in PRESCOT Volume 08B Page 659
1891, RG12; Piece: 3014; Folio: 83; Page: 37;
1901, RG13; Piece: 3513; Folio: 69; Page: 25
1911, RG14; Piece: 22717
Unfortunately that Phoebe appears to have died in 1936
Deaths Jun 1936, Prescott vol 8b, page 675
Burgess Phoebe M, age at death 81.
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You may well be correct. I've attached the hints that Ancestry suggests for Phoebe.
I'll order the marriage record from the GRO for Phoebe and see if she is a match. As they're not PDF's it will take a week or so I guess.
Thanks for your on-going help.
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I hadn't seen those hints and wonder how they (Ancestry) linked PMJ to the PMB censuses. Sometimes Ancestry make a link as a member has a tree including the records. Have you checked other trees? Has to be noted though that not all Ancestry's links are correct (as I'm sure you are aware)
I found PMB by searching censuses for a Phoebe (no surname) born 1856 +/- 2yrs in Yorkshire, living Lancashire and she was the only one. I then looked for a marriage between John Burgess and Phoebe Johnston. I tried in the same way for Harriet but didn't find a possible. So Harriet for now is a mystery after the last census she's on with her parents, same for Mary E.
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Marriages Sep 1884, Chester, vol 8a page 593
Harriet Johnston, Abel Parkinson on same page.
Cheshire BMD confirms it to be the correct pairing, either a civil marriage or registrar attended.
1901, 21, Midland St, Widnes. RG13; Piece: 3514; Folio: 21; Page: 34
Abel Parkinson 38, grocer;s assistant, Widnes
Harriet Parkinson 40, Sheffield
Marguerit Parkinson 6, Widnes
Frances M Hamblett 34, lodger.
1891, RG12; Piece: 3014; Folio: 53; Page: 46;
1911, RG14; Piece: 22719
And she also appears to have died before the 1939 register
Deaths Jun 1934
Parkinson Harriet A 76 Prescot 8b 706
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I ordered the birth PDF for
MCMAHON, JAMES JOHNSON
GRO Reference: 1851 S Quarter in SHEFFIELD Volume 22 Page 700
But it doesn't have any more clues. Not sure what I was expecting. I will order Phoebe's marriage record and see what that has to say.
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Good luck with the marriage certificate. I do hope it proves to be the right one, please let me know.
Yes, unfortunately the birth certificates won't offer more clues. It's a great pity that none of the children born in Sheffield appear to have survived until the 1939 register was taken as their full DOB would be on there. Everything seems to be working against you.!