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General => Ancestral Family Tree DNA Testing => Topic started by: ali607 on Tuesday 09 January 18 22:43 GMT (UK)
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Hi everyone,
I spent many years researching my family tree in great depth many years ago. However there is one large blank and that is the question of my father's lineage. My dad is deceased. I am my dad's only biological offspring and I am female. My dad also has no FULL siblings. He has two half siblings; their biological father is from Eastern Europe. I have this hunch that in my Dad's line there is blood from outwith the UK too...my hunch is Eastern Europe somewhere. I would like to get some idea about this through one of the many DNA tests. But I just don't know where to start.
Me
My dad
My grandad b.1918 during the war - father unknown...he took his mothers surname which has been passed down to me. The unknown father is who I have a hunch was from outwith the UK...given that is world war 1 and then he seems to vanish.
Can anyone offer any advice as to what kind of test I could do to see if I do have blood from Eastern Europe or indeed, elsewhere?
I am starting from pure ignorance here!
Thanks
Alison
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Hi Alison
I think an autosomal test is the only type that may help with this, since you are female and it's your father who has the mystery background. But I'd take the ethnicity estimates with a pinch of salt.
With luck you may get matches at near cousin level with others whose ancestry isn't in doubt, and that could give you some pointers as to who your father's father might have been.
You don't mention your mother but if it's possible for her to do the same test it would help you in establishing whether your DNA cousins are on your maternal or paternal side.
Autosomal testing is the most commonly available type of DNA testing for family history purposes. It's offered by a range of companies. I tested two or three years ago with FTDNA (their familyfinder test) and uploaded my results to GEDMatch (free) so my results could be compared with others who had tested with different companies. However lots of people don't do this so more recently I also tested with Ancestry (they only do the one type of test) and that has resulted in a number of new matches. You can upload Ancestry results to FTDNA but not the other way round, something to bear in mind, and you don't need an Ancestry subscription to see your results but it is something that I found myself sucked in to! With FTDNA there's no ongoing subscription. With both companies, you get to see new matches as other people test, it's not just a fixed point in time. They both have periodic sales. The cost of returning the Ancestry kit gets added on to your order (you get a pre-paid label) and it gets returned to an address in Ireland although I don't know where the processing is done. With FTDNA you take it to the Post Office, I think it cost somewhere between £3 and £4 to send it to the USA. Ancestry is spit in a tube (and it's a lot of spit!), with FTDNA you scrape something that looks like a soft-toothed cotton bud against the inside of your cheek.
There are other DNA testing companies out there. If you've not done so, take a look at the DNA board here on rootschat to get a broader picture.
Jane :-)
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When you have done your DNA test, there is a lot of help on Facebook pages for DNA in genealogy (as well as on here, of course.) There are so many people who were adopted or who don't know their biological ancestors and are now trying to find out. cb
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For what it's worth, my experience and advice is almost the same as Jane's. I started with FTDNA and the whole experience was good and inexpensive, then later also tested with Ancestry, which ends up costing a lot more. You can test with Ancestry and then upload to FTDNA, but the test isn't quite as good, and it doesn't cost much to do the separate test with FTDNA.
One thing to think of is the number of people from your region of interest who are likely to have tested with each company. I researched this before I started, and found that while Ancestry's database is by far the biggest, it was much more USA centric than FTDNA, and I calculated that there would actually be more matches in Australia (where I live) with FTDNA. And that proved to be the case - about twice as many matches at 4th cousin level. Not sure if it would be the same now (that was 2+ years ago) and in Europe where you are interested, but it's worth checking out. Also, is My Heritage more European based? I don't know.
But if you have enough cash, I'd suggest testing with both FTDNA and Ancestry, or else FTDNA and My heritage if they are mostly European, and then upload to FTDNA.
I also agree with getting your mother tested, because it helps eliminate many matches as not being from your father's side. I ended up arranging for an aunt, a cousin and a distant cousin all to test, and that really helped. But of course money doesn't grow on trees!
It may encourage you to know that after several years of hard and frustrating work, one of my mysteries was resolved very quickly when a good match was obtained between someone I didn't know and my aunt, and the mystery all fell into place. But that was after about 8-10 years of paper searching and 2 years of DNA with 5 tests. So it is worth doing and being patient!
It may be that someone will just pop out of the woodwork and solve your problem, but it may be that it doesn't happen that way, which means you have the hard task of trying to connect matches to you via their trees and yours., via paper records. This can be hard work, and will likely require several trails that don't lead anywhere before you hit on one that does. So you want to choose the best possibilities. There are several ways to do this.
(1) If your mum tests, chose people who don't match with her.
(2) Use the "in common with" tool in FTDNA and the equivalent in Ancestry to find who is in common with you best match, and again with your second best match, etc, then choose the person who has quite a few matches in common, because you may find some common information there. FTDNA's chromosome browser is very useful here too.
(3) Obviously choose people who have good family trees, and/or who are cooperative and answer your emails.
Hop that helps.
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I've been thinking lately about DNA testing, but I've always found it VERY DIFFICULT to read and understand the "jargon"! I realise it's a very scientific process, but my brain just isn't wired for that sort of thing, but I am interested even though I don't understand
I've looked at various sites and tried to read through a lot of, but I just can't absorb what it all means! (I have my private tree on Ancestry). As far as I am aware at present, my ancestry is Scottish, Irish and English!
There are so many companies doing the tests now, but does anyone know which one would be the best bet, in terms of cost, and also in terms of VERY simple explanations!
Thank you for your thoughts
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I've been thinking lately about DNA testing, but I've always found it VERY DIFFICULT to read and understand the "jargon"! I realise it's a very scientific process, but my brain just isn't wired for that sort of thing, but I am interested even though I don't understand
I've looked at various sites and tried to read through a lot of, but I just can't absorb what it all means! (I have my private tree on Ancestry). As far as I am aware at present, my ancestry is Scottish, Irish and English!
There are so many companies doing the tests now, but does anyone know which one would be the best bet, in terms of cost, and also in terms of VERY simple explanations!
Thank you for your thoughts
I think both Eric and Jane have given a lot of the information you are looking for.
My twopennorth for what it's worth -
Ignore the promise of reliable ethnicity results, you won't get what you are looking for.
Test with either Ancestry or 23andMe, as they have the largest databases, and you can upload to other sites (though as Eric says, you don't get a full service from ftDNA).
Cost is relative - Ancestry isn't the cheapest, but if you get more results from them, the comparison cost is cheaper IYSWIM. Look out for special offers.
My background is firmly in England mostly SE, one ancestor from Ireland, and of all the sites where I have uploaded my ancestryDNA results to, Ancestry has been the most productive. It may or may not be different for you, it really depends upon how many of your 'cousins' have tested their DNA.
It can be daunting when you get results back, and it isn't a quick fix to knock down your brick walls, if any. I have found it hard work, but very rewarding.
Further simple reading - Lost Cousins newsletters are a mine of information.
Regards Margaret
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Thank you Margaret. I get the Lost Cousins newsletters, and they are very informative, but obviously I probably should up load my tree to Lost Cousins.
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Hi Jaybeinz,
I think previous comments and the reply from Margaret should all be helpful. My extra thought is to suggest you make sure you are clear about what you want out of DNA testing. There are many different things people want, for example:
- a better picture of their ethnicity
- it might be interesting - maybe it will help with some parts of their tree
- an adoptee wants to find one or both birth parents
- they want to see if they and someone they know with the same name are really related
I feel that thinking this through is helpful, because sometimes the choice of test and company may depend on your aims.
- For example, FTDNA does three different types of test, and two of them are generally not so useful for family history, but in some cases they can be extremely useful.
- If it is really important to a person to find something out (e.g. with adoptees), they will likely want to test with as many companies as they can to increase their chances of getting that important match.
So I haven't answered your question, and I hope I haven't confused you more. But if you wanted to discuss your aims a little more, I'm sure people here could help you in your choice.
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(though as Eric says, you don't get a full service from ftDNA).
Did he really say that? I have read his reply and didn't see that.
Also I was surprised by his advice to test with ftDNA AND MyHeritage as I thought it was the ftDNA labs that carried out the MyHeritage tests ???
Maybe its just as well I am going away for a few days ;)
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Did he really say that? I have read his reply and didn't see that.
I have heard (I think on the DNAeXplained (https://dna-explained.com) blog that a transfer from Ancestry to FTDNA doesn't give as good results as a FTDNA test for 2 reasons - Ancestry doesn't test as many locations (or the same locations, and FTDNA only shows higher level matches because it says other results would be misleading. That's my recollection of what was said.
Also I was surprised by his advice to test with ftDNA AND MyHeritage as I thought it was the ftDNA labs that carried out the MyHeritage tests
Yes, I'm surprised by that advice too. I think I may have meant to test with Ancestry and My Heritage and upload to FTDNA, but I typed the wrong company in. Thanks for picking that up.
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Hi Eric
Thank you for the clarification.
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(though as Eric says, you don't get a full service from ftDNA).
Did he really say that? I have read his reply and didn't see that
Eric said 'You can test with Ancestry and then upload to FTDNA, but the test isn't quite as good, and it doesn't cost much to do the separate test with FTDNA.'
I have found that they don't give any distant matches at all with a free autosomal upload. My matches at FTDNA stop at 15cM, at ancestry they go down to 6cM.
Regards Margaret
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Margaret,
Thank you for replying. Eric has now explained what he meant and I fully understand that. What I did not agree with was the way you paraphrased it which I thought was potentially inaccurate and misleading. If you want a full service from ftDNA then you test with them, you don't test with another company and then bemoan the limited service you get on a free (?) transfer. Just my opinion of course.
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I think that for a beginner, Ancestry is a better starting point. The presentation of results is simpler and I think this helps in the early stages. Take plenty of time to analyse the results. Concentrate on your first page of results and work through these before moving down the list. making sure you understand what you are being told including the limits of the data. They usually offer discounts around high days and holidays (mothering Sunday, Christmas, etc.) so keep an eye out. You will save £20 but the P&P is a sting in the tail just the same.
Then, despite the caveats outlined earlier, you can transfer your Ancestry results to both Gedmatch.com and ftdna.com when it suits you and at no further cost.
I would do these one at a time and after each one, giving yourself lots of time to absorb all this extra data with which you are suddenly confronted.
Occasionally, a DNA match will be a real "light bulb" moment :o but most of the time it is a hard methodical slog to make sense of the data now in your possession. I do urge you to "make haste slowly" pausing to find answers to all the questions you, ask yourself. (What does this mean? What are the implications of that? etc.). The isogg.org site is a brilliant free resource to answer most of your questions but within in is a lot of information.
Finally, unless your ethnicity results include Ivory Coast, Melanesia or the moon, they are of almost no value in North-West Europe.
And remember, when you get stuck, there is always Rootschat :D
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I think that for a beginner, Ancestry is a better starting point.
Terrible advice in my opinion. They take the test there do not read any of the help pages on Ancestry and come here and ask questions.
And remember, when you get stuck, there is always Rootschat :D
See above. Arghhhhhhhhhhh ::)
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David, I think you misunderstood me. I am not at all bemoaning the limited service I get with ftDNA after a free autosomal transfer. I'm sorry if my paraphrasing offended you, it was not intended to do so :)
jaybelnz was asking which was the best company to test with. In my opinion, and I realise there will be many other opinions, Ancestry is the best company to test with. I have many confirmed matches there, little to none at other sites where I have uploaded. At ftDNA I have no confirmed matches, at 3rd to 5th cousin level or closer.
As I said in another thread, I think if I were tested again, it would be with 23andMe, to take benefit of the second largest autosomal DNA database.
I don't mind about not getting any speculative matches at ftDNA, just wish I could positively connect with some of the closer ones.
It really does depend upon which of your 'cousins' have tested and where.
As you say, Eric has explained what he meant far better than I did, so hope any misunderstanding, inaccuracies or misleading statements are not held against me! :) :) :)
Regards Margaret
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David, I think you misunderstood me. I am not at all bemoaning the limited service I get with ftDNA after a free autosomal transfer. I'm sorry if my paraphrasing offended you, it was not intended to do so :)
As you say, Eric has explained what he meant far better than I did, so hope any misunderstanding, inaccuracies or misleading statements are not held against me! :) :) :)
Regards Margaret
No offence taken I was just worried others could get the wrong end of the stick or take the wrong interpretation as I did. Though I think the discussion with you and Eric has clarified things and hopefully will be usefu to others too. Thank you for your reply.
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I think that for a beginner, Ancestry is a better starting point.
Terrible advice in my opinion. They take the test there do not read any of the help pages on Ancestry and come here and ask questions.
And remember, when you get stuck, there is always Rootschat :D
See above. Arghhhhhhhhhhh ::)
If you don't want to help other people with their problems, you don't have to! :) :) :)
I tend to agree with diplodicus, Ancestry is a good starting point, but maybe that's because I started there. I have no regrets, I would have had to do an ancestryDNA test in the end anyway.
Regards Margaret
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If you don't want to help other people with their problems, you don't have to! :) :) :)
Ah but that is my not my objection. My objection is that people pay to use a site but instead of using it they come here and post their questions many of which could have been quickly answered by reading the help pages on Ancestry. Indeed I have actually posted that before so its not a new thought.
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I feel quite the opposite to you David. It isn't always easy to find the information we want, and not always easy to understand. I have been helped many times by posting on this and other genealogical forums (and also computer forums), for which I am very thankful. We all have different abilities and interests, and we can all generally help someone else and be helped by someone else.
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Hi All!
I am the original poster back in January! I do apologize - I had a baby in the interim and am only just getting back to this! I'm only finding these replies now -I must have turned off email alerts many years ago and had forgotten all about this!
Many thanks for all your efforts in giving me advice...I need to take time to read them all.
What does autosumal mean? I am wanting to find a clue as the country where my great grandfather was from. That is my aim. I have hunches...I could be totally wrong and there could be no foreign blood at all on that line!
I have hunches since posting this original post that he couldve been Eastern Europen/Russian or Japanese...does that influence anyones opinions about which company to go with?
ALison
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Jaybelnz, when I started studying DNA this year, in preparation for having my DNA analysed, I found the best way to start was to find articles on the internet explaining DNA to young children. They have lots of simple to follow descriptions, and even some cheery jolly pictures. I found it a very good start, preparing me for the more advanced technical articles that I am now reading. I also strongly recommend the Bettinger book.
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Dear Alison,
Congratulations on creating another branch in two trees.
The following site is one to bookmark for most questions you might raise about DNA testing:
https://isogg.org/wiki/Autosomal_DNA (https://isogg.org/wiki/Autosomal_DNA)
However, I agree with Martin that a child-like approach is very helpful for us newbies.
DNA testing for genealogy purposes is still a fairly recent thing made possible by the rapid fall in the time needed to analyse a sample and the associated costs. Most of the results against which you can compare yours are for residents of the United States, UK plus those former colonies to where there was systematic migration. There are samples submitted in Eastern Europe but these are comparatively few and far between. The odds of finding a match from someone still living there are remote. However, you might find another descendent of a branch that also migrated westwards. My offspring are half-Polish and they have lots of matches with this half of the family but these are mostly in Western Europe and the US.
One of the frustrating aspects of autosomal DNA is that if only works back about six generations. After that, the "slicing and dicing" of reproduction renders any matches almost meaningless. Also, testing only finds about two thirds of the matches in any given batch of samples.
Nevertheless you will have lots of autosomal matches and somewhere in that crowd. I have found the test hugely beneficial and have found and met a whole batch of 2nd, 3rd and 4th cousins, all previously unknown to each other.
Stay calm and keep digging.
Malcolm
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Diplodocus - what did you mean with your comment:
"Congratulations on creating another branch in two trees."
Thanks
Alison
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Your baby... in your's and your partner's. :D
Is that first one a correct apostrophe??? The more I look at it, the more weird it becomes ???
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Ok, I've read all of your advice and links with interest.
My aim initially was to see the ethnicity results which I thought might give me an idea whether there was any non British blood in the elusive great grandad of my illegitemate grandad (I know the entire rest of my tree back to 1700s is entirely from England and Ireland - this has been double/triple checked and is very solidly researched over many many years by myself in the past so any deviation to other countries would indicate that this individual was from elsehwere). I was hoping somehow that they might point towards an area of Europe or possibly elsewhere?? But given your responses, that seems unlikely because I live in north west Europe. Is that correct?
Nevertheless, because the individual I am trying to find out about is relatively close to me and was a direct ancestor, I would think that any indication ethnicity wise to any area of the world would be quite strong - yes?
I also initially had the idea to test mum which would then negate her results in me and make any stand out which were passed down through my dad. Thanks for corroborating this.
I still very much am unclear though as to which test to do because I do not know which database is best for Europe...and indeed, my ancestor may have originated outside of Europe anyway!
The man I am looking for is only 4 generations back from me. Whoever he was I suppose I am hoping he had some children somewhere else or that perhaps his siblings would have had some children? But the matches could come from further back too...Somebody mentioned 6pcm or 15pcm...or something similar? What does this mean?
I am edging away from Ancestry because to be honest I do not want to get bogged down in trillions of American results!
So I take it, when you get your results, the ethnicity is in the form of a map and 'hits' or something similar? And then you upload your results and that's when you find possible cousin matches?
Sorry - so many questions!
Many thanks for bearing with me!
Alison
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Hi Alison
I finally was able to match up my missing great grandfather by following a small group of close matches who were traced back to his brothers. This group didn't match with any others apart from my great nephew. They were in the range of 125 - 53 cMs and corresponded to 3rd and 3rd 1R to me. It took a while as, initially, I only had a response from one of them. I worked through their trees and noticed that the locations/ times corresponded to what I knew. I then found that the illustrious gg had the same first names and occupation that I'd been looking for.
Note - I tested with Ancestry and all but 2 of the matches were in the USA as one of the descendants had moved there. I have uploaded my Ancestry file to My Heritage, FTDNA and Gedmatch but, so far, no others in this particular group have shown up.
Gadget
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Also, no one has mentioned this yet but is there an issue because I am female but trying to search my paternal line?
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Alison, Autosomal DNA is passed down from parents, grandparents, etc. etc.to both male and female children in equal measure.
General consensus as already mentioned is that ethnicity results inaccurate. Family stories may also be incorrect - your great grandfather could have been Joe Bloggs from Essex rather than Boris Romanikov from Russia. If he was Boris, there again it would depend upon how many Russian people descended from him have had DNA testing.
Helpful reading - any ISOGG article about the subject and Lost Cousins newsletters. Have you read the link that diplodocus gave for ISOGG?
You say you are tending against Ancestry - your choice, but they have the biggest database of all the companies. You can always upload results elsewhere.
Regards Margaret
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I was about to give the link that diplodicus gave, when I see you've posted, Margaret. To reinforce what you've said:
https://isogg.org/wiki/Autosomal_DNA
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Hi everyone, thanks so much for all of your advice.
I am a little curious about 23 and me - has anyone got any first hand advice on matches or the size of the database and how useful it is for Europe?
Thanks for the link:
https://isogg.org/wiki/Autosomal_DNA
I watched the video and it shows an example from ftDNA's results - I thought this seemed a very clear way to display results. Is Ancestry and other companies displayed like this ??
I just don't want to pay for Ancestry - for both me and mum - and then find out that the only results are in the USA...that's my fear with Ancestry.
Thanks
ALison