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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Sussex => England => Sussex Lookup Requests => Topic started by: solidrock on Friday 12 January 18 08:17 GMT (UK)

Title: Lost burial ground, Framfield.
Post by: solidrock on Friday 12 January 18 08:17 GMT (UK)
My Gt, GT grandfather died in August 1891, Framfield, he was 63. The reason for his death was suicide. I have been searching for over 10 years to try and find his burial place but without success.
The burial record I have is from the now defunked "familyhistoryonline" and it states.....
"Jeremiah Batchelor. 8 Aug 1891 age 63. Notes Croxted Lane Yard, Framfield St. Thomas"
It does'nt give citation as to where the record came from.
I have visited St.Thomas church but they were of no help, I've checked old maps of the area but can't find the grave yard. I've spent hours wandering around Framfield looking for clues but it seems that Croxted Lane Yard has disappeared. I assume other people have been buried here but I can't find any record of the place online. Any help would be appreciated.
Title: Re: Lost burial ground, Framfield.
Post by: nanny jan on Friday 12 January 18 08:55 GMT (UK)
Sussex Family History Group might be able to help:

http://www.sfhg.org.uk/index.html
Title: Re: Lost burial ground, Framfield.
Post by: jonw65 on Friday 12 January 18 09:00 GMT (UK)
Jeremiah Batchelor, buried 8 August 1891, Framfield. Parish Church.
BT here
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-D4J9-PB7?i=231&cat=1022440

John
Title: Re: Lost burial ground, Framfield.
Post by: jonw65 on Friday 12 January 18 09:03 GMT (UK)
Should be in the parish register. Somewhere!
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DRF7-4BK?i=224&cat=691003
Title: Re: Lost burial ground, Framfield.
Post by: nanny jan on Friday 12 January 18 09:07 GMT (UK)
Good find but the link just directs you to the sign-in page.
Title: Re: Lost burial ground, Framfield.
Post by: rosie99 on Friday 12 January 18 09:08 GMT (UK)

The burial record I have is from the now defunked "familyhistoryonline" and it states.....
"Jeremiah Batchelor. 8 Aug 1891 age 63. Notes Croxted Lane Yard, Framfield St. Thomas"


Didn't familyhistoryonline 'morph'  into FindMyPast  :-\

Good find but the link just directs you to the sign-in page.

It took me straight to the image but I am logged into familysearch  ;)
Title: Re: Lost burial ground, Framfield.
Post by: Pheno on Friday 12 January 18 09:09 GMT (UK)
Didn't I just read somewhere else on RC that unless you are signed in to familysearch before you open the link it won't work now?

Pheno
Title: Re: Lost burial ground, Framfield.
Post by: jonw65 on Friday 12 January 18 09:14 GMT (UK)
It took me straight to the image but I am logged into familysearch  ;)

Rosie is correct, we have to be logged in to FamilySearch to see anything.
BT is faint image, abode looks like Croxted Lane to me. Age 63.
John
Title: Re: Lost burial ground, Framfield.
Post by: solidrock on Saturday 13 January 18 00:18 GMT (UK)
Thank you    jonw65 for that link, looked there before but never found it. Like you say it says abode Croxted Lane. In 1891 he lived in Sand Hill, Croxted Green with his wife and son William. William also committed suicide in 1923 in the same way as his father.
This does'nt explain the phrase Croxted Lane Yard, the grave yard at St.Thomas is quite far from Croxted Green.

ADDED.  Just checking the 1891 again and it appears that he lived at Pale House Common.
Title: Re: Lost burial ground, Framfield.
Post by: Ruskie on Saturday 13 January 18 00:50 GMT (UK)
As I read this, his abode was Croxted Lane and he was buried in the graveyard of St Thomas Church.

I thought that suicides weren't allowed to be buried within the churchyard though.  :-\

Added: Having a quick look at an old map, I couldn't see a churchyard or burial ground around Palehouse Common - maybe Framfield was the closest, or the family church? (Am on ipad so find it a little more difficult to be thorough when looking at maps) :)
Title: Re: Lost burial ground, Framfield.
Post by: solidrock on Saturday 13 January 18 02:05 GMT (UK)
As I read this, his abode was Croxted Lane and he was buried in the graveyard of St Thomas Church.

I thought that suicides weren't allowed to be buried within the churchyard though.  :-\

Added: Having a quick look at an old map, I couldn't see a churchyard or burial ground around Palehouse Common - maybe Framfield was the closest, or the family church? (Am on ipad so find it a little more difficult to be thorough when looking at maps) :)

Thats how I read it but the census says he's living at Pale House Common as does the newspaper article. Not sure about suicide burials within church yard but if this was the case it still poses the issue of where Croxted Lane Yard was.
Title: Re: Lost burial ground, Framfield.
Post by: Ruskie on Saturday 13 January 18 09:23 GMT (UK)
Without knowing what the newspaper article says, or details of the census, remember that the census is just a snapshot of one night in ten years.

A discussion about burials of suicides here:
https://www.british-genealogy.com/archive/index.php/t-61132.html
Title: Re: Lost burial ground, Framfield.
Post by: solidrock on Saturday 13 January 18 09:34 GMT (UK)
Without knowing what the newspaper article says, or details of the census, remember that the census is just a snapshot of one night in ten years.

A discussion about burials of suicides here:
https://www.british-genealogy.com/archive/index.php/t-61132.html

I tried to upload the newspaper article but the rootschat won't let me for some strange reason, don't usually have a problem.
Title: Re: Lost burial ground, Framfield.
Post by: Ruskie on Saturday 13 January 18 09:43 GMT (UK)
Presumably you have Lready searched old maps for Croxted Lane/Yard?

Can you transcribe the relevant parts of the newspaper article if you think that knowing it's contents might help?  :-\
Title: Re: Lost burial ground, Framfield.
Post by: solidrock on Saturday 13 January 18 09:50 GMT (UK)
Presumably you have Lready searched old maps for Croxted Lane/Yard?

Can you transcribe the relevant parts of the newspaper article if you think that knowing it's contents might help?  :-\

Yes I've looked at maps of area around that time and there is no sign of Croxted Lane Yard.
Title: Re: Lost burial ground, Framfield.
Post by: Ruskie on Saturday 13 January 18 09:55 GMT (UK)
I will have a look later when I am on my desktop PC.  :)
Title: Re: Lost burial ground, Framfield.
Post by: josey on Saturday 13 January 18 10:09 GMT (UK)
Here's Framfield on a 25 in to the mile probably 1870s
http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=17&lat=50.9638&lon=0.1271&layers=168&b=1
As has been pointed out, no road names....

NannyJan's suggestion in reply #1 is worth following up or a local history society. There's a parish council website
https://www.framfieldcouncil.org.uk/

ADDED: Here's the description for 1891 piece [as best I can read it]
RG12; Piece: 784; Folio: 22; Page: 10
All that part of the parish of Framfield commencing at Brook House following the road to Cooper Hatch by way of High Cross Croxted and Whitelock from there to Bentley Farms and Tarble Down from there by way of Sand Hill and Honeys Green to that  part of Barnet Wood on the south side  from the parish road leading from Maule Gate to the turnpike road the whole of Canon [?] Green and Pale House Common following the road by New Place from thence to Arches Farm

Title: Re: Lost burial ground, Framfield.
Post by: Ruskie on Saturday 13 January 18 10:32 GMT (UK)
There is Crockstead, just south of Palehouse Common:

http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=16&lat=50.9402&lon=0.1248&layers=6&right=BingHyb\

Brookhouse and High Cross as per the description given by Josey:
http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=16&lat=50.9516&lon=0.1209&layers=6&right=BingHyb
(seems to be heading in the right direction for Crockstead - maybe)  :-\

Changed to a different map to find Crockstead called Croxsted:
http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=15&lat=50.9392&lon=0.1275&layers=1&right=BingHyb
(Sandhill and Honey's Green from Josey's description can also be seen)

[you can zoom in and out of the maps to see more]
Title: Re: Lost burial ground, Framfield.
Post by: josey on Saturday 13 January 18 10:36 GMT (UK)
Think you've got it Ruskie  :). Sounds the same as Croxted & a Crookstead Lane must have led to it.
Title: Re: Lost burial ground, Framfield.
Post by: Ruskie on Saturday 13 January 18 10:43 GMT (UK)
Think you've got it Ruskie  :). Sounds the same as Croxted & a Crookstead Lane must have led to it.

I've added to my last post Josey. Definitely the same place.

As for where Croxted Lane and Yard are, the maps don't show enough detail unfortunately, but there are so few roads that one of them must be Croxted Lane. Croxted Lane Yard might suggest an area off the back of the lane.

According to the maps Crockstead looks to be a large farm - I wonder if Croxted Lane is the lane to the farm from the main road (currently the A22), and "Croxted Lane Yard" is literally a yard off the lane with a dwelling where they lived?  :-\
Title: Re: Lost burial ground, Framfield.
Post by: solidrock on Saturday 13 January 18 10:46 GMT (UK)
Thank you  Ruskie and  josey, I have seen these maps before but they don't give any clues to Croxted Lane Yard. The PR for his burial says abode Croxted Lane but he definitely lived at Pale House Common which is born out by the newspaper article. The place where he committed suicide was Honeys Green which is just to the east of Croxted,(Crockstead). I don't know if the record from familyhistoryonline is transcribed the same on FindMyPast but that says burial at Croxted Lane Yard which may have been a part of St. Thomas but no one there seems to know and I have also contacted the parish council years ago and still drawn a blank.
Title: Re: Lost burial ground, Framfield.
Post by: Ruskie on Saturday 13 January 18 10:57 GMT (UK)
There seems to be some anomalies as to the wording recording where he is buried.

Locating the original PR would be the best thing to do. Even a newspaper article back in those days may not be accurate.

He may have recently moved from Croxted to Palehouse Common or maybe he was of no fixed abode or was staying with family hence the different abodes recorded?

I find it difficult to believe that he would have been buried on a farm, though maybe it was permitted as he had committed suicide.

St Thomas may be the parish rather than the church?  :-\

I think it possible that the Lane was the road you can see on the maps which ran from the main road, currently the A22, to the farmstead named as Croxted.

This may be the "yard":
http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=18&lat=50.9410&lon=0.1252&layers=6&right=BingHyb
Title: Re: Lost burial ground, Framfield.
Post by: jonw65 on Saturday 13 January 18 11:16 GMT (UK)
I don't know if the record from familyhistoryonline is transcribed the same on FindMyPast but that says burial at Croxted Lane Yard

It says (under "notes") Croxted Lane.
No Yard!

Jeremiah had previously been treated for melancholia, according to The Keep
http://www.thekeep.info/collections/getrecord/GB179_HC_1_2_2_24_5136
Title: Re: Lost burial ground, Framfield.
Post by: Ruskie on Saturday 13 January 18 11:26 GMT (UK)
Here you can see the two houses facing the A22, on either side of what i am proposing is Crockstead Lane:

http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=18&lat=50.9388&lon=0.1238&layers=6&right=BingHyb

And the same houses today on google maps streetview:

http://www.rootschat.com/links/01lbk/

(the lane leads to what is now Crockstead Farm Hotel)

... I may be completely wrong of course ...  ;D
Title: Re: Lost burial ground, Framfield.
Post by: Ruskie on Saturday 13 January 18 11:30 GMT (UK)
I don't know if the record from familyhistoryonline is transcribed the same on FindMyPast but that says burial at Croxted Lane Yard

It says (under "notes") Croxted Lane.
No Yard!

Jeremiah had previously been treated for melancholia, according to The Keep
http://www.thekeep.info/collections/getrecord/GB179_HC_1_2_2_24_5136

So Croxted Lane is not necessarily his place of burial?

Added: I believe that Family History Online was bought out by FindMyPast, so presumably the transcriptions would still be as they were on Family History Online.
Title: Re: Lost burial ground, Framfield.
Post by: jonw65 on Saturday 13 January 18 11:41 GMT (UK)
Not sure now where that yard came from!
Jeremiah seems to be buried at St Thomas
And abode was Croxted Lane

Stan's posts on the burial of suicides after 1823 may be illuminating
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=237463.0

Title: Re: Lost burial ground, Framfield.
Post by: Ruskie on Saturday 13 January 18 12:32 GMT (UK)
i noticed the mention of dates of statutes related to burial of suicides in the discussion on my link at reply #11.

So ...
Burial: St Thomas.
abode: Croxted Lane

Too easy.  ;D

Title: Re: Lost burial ground, Framfield.
Post by: Ruskie on Saturday 13 January 18 21:02 GMT (UK)
Thinking a bit more about this .... In your initial post you say you are looking for the burial place of your gggrandfather and you say, "I have visited St.Thomas church but they were of no help" Who did you seek help from and what was their response?

I think it is unlikely that anyone working or volunteering at the church today, would be able to help you. You may be better contacting a local history group or a "friends of" the church group if one exists.

If we presume that there was not a headstone, (sometimes headstones have been transcribed in the past even if they have been since removed) you would probably need to try to find out if plans of the burials within or without the churchyard survive. Contacting the church again, or a local history group, might be the best course of action.

Added: apparently there is no burial plan available at present, but they are "working on it". http://www.framfieldchurch.org.uk/history.html
That implies that records DO exist, but maybe they are not comprehensive or available on an online database. It looks like Lewes archive office hold the older records from St Thomas - they may be able to help?  :-\
Title: Re: Lost burial ground, Framfield.
Post by: jonw65 on Saturday 13 January 18 21:08 GMT (UK)
i noticed the mention of dates of statutes related to burial of suicides in the discussion on my link at reply #11

Sorry, Ruskie.
Still, it's always good reading the great Stan!
Title: Re: Lost burial ground, Framfield.
Post by: Ruskie on Saturday 13 January 18 21:30 GMT (UK)
That's fine Jon. Yes, always good to read Stan's posts! He sticks to the facts. :)

According to their website, St Thomas a Becket Church serves Palehouse Common, which appears to have been the case in the past too. As I said in an earlier post, old maps don't show any other  churches in the area.

I have had yet another thought, but it will need confirmation. I note that Palehouse Common is a fairly large area. If place of abode varies between Palehouse Common and Croxted, might it be that Palehouse Common was the larger area, akin to a suburb, and Croxted Lane was his "street address" as it were?  :-\
Title: Re: Lost burial ground, Framfield.
Post by: solidrock on Sunday 14 January 18 02:18 GMT (UK)
Thank you all for the responses, I already knew about Jeremiah's mental health problems. As for going to the church, this was over 10 years ago, I remember it was pouring with rain while I was scouring the overgrown graveyard looking for a headstone. I went to the office to ask about the possible where abouts of Jeremiah's grave and as to where Croxted Lane Yard may of been, I was just told that there was no plan of the graveyard and the overall impression I got was go away and don't bother me. I have since emailed the church on several occasions over the years to make inquiries but got no response. I see now they are charging £18 to do a search. As to "no burial plan available at present", they have been working on this for years but nothing has appeared yet. If records of the burials do exist where are they and why could'nt they point me in that direction. I no longer live in England so I can't return to Framfield or the records office at Lewis to investigate further. I notice in a comment from Ruskie that the word yard seems to have dissapeared from the burial record during the transfer from familyhistoryonline to presumably FindMyPast. As I can't post images on this thread I have posted them on another thread in the common room, maybe a kind moderator could merge them.     
Title: Re: Lost burial ground, Framfield.
Post by: rosie99 on Sunday 14 January 18 08:03 GMT (UK)
Link to images

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=785717.
Title: Re: Lost burial ground, Framfield.
Post by: Ruskie on Sunday 14 January 18 09:40 GMT (UK)
Solidrock,
It was Jon who noted the omission of "Yard".  :)

As this is a transcription, it might be an idea to try to find the original to confirm. It probably is not of much importance if he is buried in the churchyard. You have a reasonable idea of where is lived so at least that is something.  :-\

I agree that the churchyard burial plans must be somewhere. Maybe an email to Lewes Archives? Or a request for a lookup from anyone visiting Lewes Archives?
Title: Re: Lost burial ground, Framfield.
Post by: Pheno on Sunday 14 January 18 09:50 GMT (UK)
Just to note that the Sussex Archives are no longer at Lewes, having moved to a brand new facility at The Keep in Falmer, Sussex.

Have looked at the info on the Sussex Family History Group site for burials at St. Thomas Framfield (1539-1899) and there is record of a burial of Jeremiah Batchelor in 1891 at St. Thomas, Framfield giving the details that have been noted previously i.e. age 63, burial date 8 Aug 1891 with Croxted Lane supplied as other info. 

To me this suggests that he is buried at St. Thomas, Framfield as this entry has been taken from their burial register.

Pheno
Title: Re: Lost burial ground, Framfield.
Post by: jonw65 on Sunday 14 January 18 10:03 GMT (UK)
There is no Yard mentioned on the transcript on findmypast.
Nor on the BT, as we have seen.
Regarding the parish register entry of the burial it appears that Framfield started a new register in 1890? But before they had reached the very end of the old one. But they later added some burials for 1894/5 at the end of the old one, numbering those pages 9 to 12.
Or maybe not, they may have just stuck some extra pages in for some reason!
So, as it says, you will have to "See next register" (which the LDS do not seem to have filmed, perhaps it was still in use)
John
Title: Re: Lost burial ground, Framfield.
Post by: Ruskie on Sunday 14 January 18 10:32 GMT (UK)
Thanks for the clarification Pheno.  :)
Title: Re: Lost burial ground, Framfield.
Post by: stanmapstone on Sunday 14 January 18 16:47 GMT (UK)
I see now they are charging £18 to do a search.

We charge £18 for up to one hours searching – please make cheques payable to ‘Framfield PCC’ with your enquiry. http://www.framfieldchurch.org.uk/history.html
This is cheap, the Parochial Fee from the 1st January 2018 is £29 for up to one hour, and each subsequent hour or part of an hour. Prescribed by the Parochial Fees Order 2014 (a Statutory Instrument) http://www.rootschat.com/links/01lbq/

Stan

Title: Re: Lost burial ground, Framfield.
Post by: solidrock on Tuesday 16 January 18 00:35 GMT (UK)
Thank you every one for you help and suggestions, I think I will just have to assume that Jeremiah is in the churchyard somewhere. Just as a footnote, I was told by someone in Framfield 10 years ago that there was a possibility that Croxted Lane Yard was somewhere in High Cross but I was also warned not to go looking around there as it belonged to Nicholas van Hoogstraten the notorious gangster. Needless to say I took his advice and never followed it up.
Title: Re: Lost burial ground, Framfield.
Post by: Ruskie on Tuesday 16 January 18 04:05 GMT (UK)
On old maps, both High Cross and Crockstead appear to be large farms/estates. Logically I would expect that Croxted Lane would be near, or lead to, Croxted.

Looking at the old maps there is a "road" from Palehouse Common south to Crockstead. I wonder if this might be Croxted Lane? It would explain why Palehouse Common was also given as his abode. The "road" today:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01lc9/
Unfortunately the signposts are illegible.
Locals living near the lane might be able to help you. A snail mail letter (with a reply paid envelope) to any of "The Householder/s" living near the lane may yield some results.

It doesn't seem that Croxted Lane Yard existed .... it is not on any of the transcripts found on any sites.  :-\
Title: Re: Lost burial ground, Framfield.
Post by: solidrock on Tuesday 16 January 18 05:00 GMT (UK)
"It doesn't seem that Croxted Lane Yard existed .... it is not on any of the transcripts found on any sites."
 Only familyhistoryonline had YARD in their transcript.
I think I have knocked on most of the doors down Pale House Common, that's where someone said it maybe in High Cross.
Title: Re: Lost burial ground, Framfield.
Post by: Ruskie on Tuesday 16 January 18 05:42 GMT (UK)
In that case I would try to seek out a local history group .. or a REALLY old local resident.  :)
Title: Re: Lost burial ground, Framfield.
Post by: [Ray] on Friday 09 March 18 22:25 GMT (UK)
Hi

He committed suicide?

Therefore he may not be in/on the church yard/property?

He may be in an unrecorded, unconsecrated area.
"The other side of the cemetery wall?"

Ray


 
Title: Re: Lost burial ground, Framfield.
Post by: solidrock on Saturday 10 March 18 00:08 GMT (UK)
Thanks Ray but according to Pheno the burial is recorded at St. Thomas with Croxted Lane supplied as other info but no one I have spoken to knows where Croxted Lane was.