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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: bugbear on Friday 12 January 18 16:30 GMT (UK)
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Tracing a family line back, I encountered Albert Henry Cross, born about 1885 (records vary) in Hoxton New Town.
In 1907 he married Emily Eleanor Coopey, and from that date forward their story was easy to follow, including a perfectly fine 1911 census.
Emily Coopey was easy to back trace - that surname is VERY distinctive. Her background appears to be very poor, with her family living in Bishop's Court, Clerkenwell, a nasty little closed court of multi-storey multiple occupant buildings.
http://wellcomelibrary.org/moh/report/b20056321/113#?c=0&m=0&s=0&cv=113
But prior to the 1907 marriage, which gives Henry as Albert's deceased father, I've got nothing.
I can't even find him in the 1901 census (nor the 1891). I suspect Albert and his father may be as grindlingly poor as Emily (social mobility is rare, like normally marries like), so I'm suspecting slums and/or workhouses.
But I can't actually find anything.
So far I've fished in Aces*ry, BNA, FreeBMD, GRO index, familysearch.
BugBear
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Birth
Jul/Aug/Sep 1885
Shoreditch
1c 60
Albert Henry Cross
mmn Sheppherd
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Birth
Jul/Aug/Sep 1885
Shoreditch
1c 60
Albert Henry Cross
mmn Sheppherd
I found that record (how did we manage before the GRO index!!!) , but I have absolutely failed to tie it in to any parents, marriage etc. I'd probably need to buy the cert to be sure.
Perhaps I need to grind my through the GRO index looking for siblings.
BugBear
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lizdb - you beat me to it!
There is a marriage which might tie in:
CROSS Henry to SHEPPARD Ellen, Sep qtr 1877 Barton Regis vol 6a p248
Could they have moved from Gloucestershire?
Philip
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I've just trawled the GRO index for Cross/Shepherd offspring from 1877 to 1892, male and female, in volume 01c.
Only Albert.
BugBear
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Taking the GRO "volume" filter off; Males first
CROSS, JAMES SIDNEY SHEPHERD Order
GRO Reference: 1875 J Quarter in HOLBORN Volume 01B Page 769
CROSS, DAVID ALBERT SHEPHERD Order
GRO Reference: 1876 J Quarter in FULHAM Volume 01A Page 210
CROSS, WILLIAM ERNEST SHEPHERD Order
GRO Reference: 1878 M Quarter in FARNHAM Volume 02A Page 125
CROSS, JOHN WILLIAM SHEPHERD Order
GRO Reference: 1878 M Quarter in HOLBORN Volume 01B Page 799
CROSS, THOMAS MARK SHEPHERD Order
GRO Reference: 1879 D Quarter in HOLBORN Volume 01B Page 813
CROSS, ALBERT SHEPHERD Order
GRO Reference: 1880 S Quarter in HOLBORN Volume 01B Page 829
CROSS, SPENCER EDGAR SHEPHERD Order
GRO Reference: 1881 M Quarter in FULHAM Volume 01A Page 239
CROSS, WILLIAM HENRY THOMAS SHEPHERD Order
GRO Reference: 1883 J Quarter in HOLBORN Volume 01B Page 801
CROSS, ALBERT HENRY SHEPPHERD Order
GRO Reference: 1885 S Quarter in SHOREDITCH Volume 01C Page 60
CROSS, EDWARD JOHN SHEPPARD Order
GRO Reference: 1886 J Quarter in BARTON REGIS Volume 06A Page 156
CROSS, PERCY SHEPHERD Order
GRO Reference: 1886 S Quarter in DONCASTER Volume 09C Page 715
CROSS, ALBERT SHEPPARD VICTOR SHEPPARD
GRO Reference: 1887 J Quarter in BARTON REGIS Volume 06A Page 167
CROSS, JAMES ALBERT SHEPHERD Order
GRO Reference: 1889 J Quarter in MANCHESTER Volume 08D Page 252
CROSS, THOMAS HAROLD SHEPHERD Order
GRO Reference: 1888 J Quarter in DONCASTER Volume 09C Page 694
BugBear
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There are numerous Cross/Shepherd birth in Barton Regis , suggesting that couple stayed there, and are a different couple to those who are the parents of Albert H
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Female. BTW, did you know that MMN:shepherd, Phonetically Similar Variations, matches "-".
I just found this out, and I'm not happy!
CROSS, THOMAS HAROLD SHEPHERD Order
GRO Reference: 1888 J Quarter in DONCASTER Volume 09C Page 694
CROSS, MABEL KATE SHEPPARD Order
GRO Reference: 1879 J Quarter in FROME Volume 05C Page 497
CROSS, WINIFRED HELEN SHEPPARD Order
GRO Reference: 1877 D Quarter in BARTON REGIS Volume 06A Page 67
CROSS, LOUISA SHEPPHERD Order
GRO Reference: 1881 S Quarter in HOLBORN Volume 01B Page 788
CROSS, DAISY FLORENCE SHEPPARD Order
GRO Reference: 1882 S Quarter in FROME Volume 05C Page 491
CROSS, ANNA WHEATLEY SHEPHERD Order
GRO Reference: 1884 J Quarter in DONCASTER Volume 09C Page 743
CROSS, MARY ANN SHEPHERD Order
GRO Reference: 1887 M Quarter in HOLBORN Volume 01B Page 782
BugBear
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Random Cross family in Hoxton in 1891, with father Henry - may or may not be relevant:
1891
16 Stockton Sq, Hoxton
Henry Cross 51 Carman bn Wiltshire
Margaret 54 bn Hoxton
Charles 15 bn Hoxton
Joseph 9 bn Hoxton
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Hi
There are army service records for an Albert Henry Cross alias Westwood born St Lukes c 1885
The record for Albert Henry Westwood attested 1903 gives marriage to Emma Coopey and mothers name as Mary Ann Westwood, 13, Henrietta Street,Catherine St., City road and elder brother William.
Cathy
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Random Cross family in Hoxton in 1891, with father Henry - may or may not be relevant:
1891
16 Stockton Sq, Hoxton
Henry Cross 51 Carman bn Wiltshire
Margaret 54 bn Hoxton
Charles 15 bn Hoxton
Joseph 9 bn Hoxton
This Henry is at least a plausible age to be dead by 1907.
Edit; Margaret is a widow in 1901, living with her son in law James King, so Emily King 30 (b1871) was nee Cross. Son Joseph is with her.
Edit; Joseph:
CROSS, JOSEPH COLEY
GRO Reference: 1881 S Quarter in BETHNAL GREEN Volume 01C Page 264
Edit; Emily
CROSS, EMILY MAUD COLEY
GRO Reference: 1871 D Quarter in SHOREDITCH Volume 01C Page 159
Looking like Margaret was nee Coley
FreeBMD
Marriages Jun 1858
COLEY Margaret Bethnal Gn 1c 690
Cross Henry Bethnal Gn 1c 690
Last one:
CROSS, CHARLES HENRY COLLEY
GRO Reference: 1876 M Quarter in BETHNAL GREEN Volume 01C Page 306
BugBear
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Not sure what a plausible age to die at is!!!!! I thought it was something that can happen at any time from birth to over 100 years old, but is of course guaranteed to happen at some point!!
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Hi
There are army service records for an Albert Henry Cross alias Westwood born St Lukes c 1885
The record for Albert Henry Westwood attested 1903 gives marriage to Emma Coopey and mothers name as Mary Ann Westwood, 13, Henrietta Street,Catherine St., City road and brother William.
Cathy
St Lukes is in the Holborn registration district while Hoxton is in Shoreditch.
Don't you just hate it when people move around and don't know where they were born!
lizdb and bugbear have shown my find in Barton Regis was a red herring - the more we cross off the closer we get.
Philip
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Agree
If his mum was MAry Ann Westwood, then we can rule out my Henry and MArgaret family too!
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https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWGG-8FH shows 1911 for a Mary Ann Westwood aged 56 born St Lukes widow with a son William 28.
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Letter in army records states he enlisted 2nd Jan 1903 under the name Albert Westwood but that that was incorrect and his correct name was Albert Henry Cross (confirmed with a birth certificate ,(sadly missing from the records).
Cathy
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https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWGG-8FH shows 1911 for a Mary Ann Westwood aged 59 born St Lukes widow with son William 28
There is a William Cross birth Mar qtr 1883 Shoreditch, no mmn.
I am starting to wonder if there was a Henry Cross ???
Of course, he might be William Henry Thomas Cross born Jun qtr 1883 Holborn mmn Shepherd
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Three children mentioned in records, one a Thomas Mark Cross born 1914, there is a marriage in 1879 Islington same page Thomas Mark Cross and Mary Ann Sheppherd.
It is all very confusing,
Cathy
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The 1879 marriage Cathy mentioned is online on Anc (added - Thomas Mark Cross age 23 Waiter -father Thomas Mark Cross -Engine Driver to Mary Ann Sheppherd age 23 - father Joseph Sheppherd - Cabinet Maker)
I wonder if this is the couple in 1881 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q273-MKMQ
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https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWGG-8FH shows 1911 for a Mary Ann Westwood aged 56 born St Lukes widow with a son William 28.
On that census there is also an Emily Westwood, it would appear that her birth record (Holborn 1879) has MMN as Sheppard.
JJ
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1907 marriage gives his age as 24
Jennifer
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Clerkenwell St Paul islington
Born 23/7/1885 bapt 23/8/1885
Albert Henry Cross parents Thomas Mark and Mary Ann Cross provast Street occ. Carman
Jennifer
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On 7 July 1912 Mary Ann Westwood (age 52) remarries a William Stephen Duck (51) at Hoxton. Her father is listed as Joseph Sheppard - Cabinet Maker (matching the father listed in the 1879 marriage to Thomas Mark Cross)
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Apologies - I've come home from work, had my tea, checked back.
WOW!
Lots of stuff to catch up on, looking very good (and confusing).
Thanks to all.
BugBear
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It seems to all be coming together in the end!
I am wondering in Mr Westwood was a Henry, and that is where the "father called Henry" came from on Alberts marriage cert. If Thomas Mark Cross (his actual father) wasn't around, he at have known Mr W as his father figure.
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Clerkenwell St Paul islington
Born 23/7/1885 bapt 23/8/1885
Albert Henry Cross parents Thomas Mark and Mary Ann Cross pro art Street occ. Carman
Guess that is Provost Street
1887 Electoral Roll for 25 Provost Street Hoxton - Thomas Mary Cross
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Hi,
The 1879 marriage Cathy mentioned is online on Anc (added - Thomas Mark Cross age 23 Waiter -father Thomas Mark Cross -Engine Driver to Mary Ann Sheppherd age 23 - father Joseph Sheppherd - Cabinet Maker)
I wonder if this is the couple in 1881 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q273-MKMQ
I wonder if he knocked a couple of years off his age & was actually 25 at marriage?
Birth from FreeBMD:
Cross, Thomas Mark; Dec Qtr 1855; Poplar: Vol 1c Page 575
also another son?:
Birth
Cross, Thomas Mark; Dec Qtr 1879; Holborn: Vol 1b Page 813
And Death:
Cross, Thomas Mark; March Qtr 1880; Age 0; Holborn: Vol 1b Page 578
Hope this helps.
Kind regards
David
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May 1890 sees a Mary Ann Cross b 1856 in the workhouse with children Louisa (1881) William (1883) Albert (1886) Mary A (1887) and Dennis Cain (1889) Most are sent to Mitcham Schools or infirmary
1891 she's potentially back with another child, Thomas
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May 1890 sees a Mary Ann Cross b 1856 in the workhouse with children Louisa (1881) William (1883) Albert (1886) Mary A (1887) and Dennis Cain (1889) Most are sent to Mitcham Schools or infirmary
1891 she's potentially back with another child, Thomas
Thomas is a child that is listed with the family in 1911 but crossed out and I think he (age 22) marries Mary Ann Bates 25 Dec 1912 in Hoxton. His father is listed as Thomas Westwood (deceased) farrier with witness Emily Westwood
Added Emily Westwood (age 20) married Charles Franks in Hoxton on 5 Aug 1918 - Father listed as Thomas Westwood - deceased - Blacksmith and one of witnesses William Stephen Duck (her mother's latest husband)
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Louisa and Mary are discharged from Mitcham School in 1894 back to a workhouse for onward discharge to parents
William and Albert leave in early 1891 to the Fever Hospital - William returns in June 1891 and stays until June 1894 when he goes into service with a Mrs Callow of Hoxton
1896-98 Albert is sent to the Training Ship Exmouth
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Hi,
Birth from FreeBMD:
Cross, Thomas Mark; Dec Qtr 1855; Poplar: Vol 1c Page 575
GRO index gives a mothers maiden surname of: Izard
This marriage from FreeBMD then shows up:
Cross, Thomas to Izard, Sarah; Dec Qtr 1855; Poplar; Volume 1c Page 1121.
Marriage & birth registered same quarter & district. I wonder which came first!
Hope this helps.
Kind regards
David
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Mary Ann, Thomas and Emily are in and out of the workhouse in 1903 & 4 - as Westwoods
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Emily starts at Moreland School in 1904 - address Ciy ROad, mother Mary Ann, widow
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Hi,
This marriage from FreeBMD then shows up:
Cross, Thomas to Izard, Sarah; Dec Qtr 1855; Poplar; Volume 1c Page 1121.
Marriage Locator shows that this marriage took place at Stratford Le Bow St Mary
Hope this helps.
Kind regards
David
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Marriages of Emily and Thomas Westwood list their father as Thomas Westwood - blacksmith/farrier
I wonder if this might be Thomas and Mary Ann in 1891 living in St Lukes - minus any children :-\
Thomas Westwood 28 b St. Luke, London - Tinsmith
Mary A Westwood 35 b St. Luke, London
Possible death of Thomas Westwood age 36 1899 Shoreditch
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Hi,
also another son?:
Birth
Cross, Thomas Mark; Dec Qtr 1879; Holborn: Vol 1b Page 813
And Death:
Cross, Thomas Mark; March Qtr 1880; Age 0; Holborn: Vol 1b Page 578
Birth confirmed in GRO
CROSS, THOMAS MARK SHEPHERD
GRO Reference: 1879 D Quarter in HOLBORN Volume 01B Page 813
BugBear
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Another wedding; Emily Westwood (b1897) married Charles Frank (b1898) in 1918; her father is again given as Thomas Westwood, Blacksmith, deceased.
BugBear
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Another wedding; Emily Westwood (b1897) married Charles Frank (b1898) in 1918; her father is again given as Thomas Westwood, Blacksmith, deceased.
BugBear
And one of witnesses was William Stephen Duck (her mother's latest husband) :)
Kay
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Another wedding; Emily Westwood (b1897) married Charles Frank (b1898) in 1918; her father is again given as Thomas Westwood, Blacksmith, deceased.
BugBear
And one of witnesses was William Stephen Duck (her mother's latest husband) :)
Kay
You'd already posted about that wedding; apologies. Whilst doing my own searches, I've failed to pay proper attention to all the work other people have done, which is ungrateful of me.
BugBear
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Don't worry - the thread wanders around the family and time periods as it really isn't straightforward ;D But a fascinating and really interesting family.
I wonder what happened to Thomas Mark Cross??
Kay
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Last sighting is 6 Nov 1888 - admitted to the workhouse the previous day then sent to Highgate (an infirmary, I believe)
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May 1890 sees a Mary Ann Cross b 1856 in the workhouse with children Louisa (1881) William (1883) Albert (1886) Mary A (1887) and Dennis Cain (1889) Most are sent to Mitcham Schools or infirmary
1891 she's potentially back with another child, Thomas
GRO gives;
CROSS, DENNIS CANE -
GRO Reference: 1890 M Quarter in SHOREDITCH Volume 01C Page 45
No mother's maiden name :-(
BugBear
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I suspect Thomas Mark may have died/not come back after his 1888 admission - Thomas Westwood comes along at some point. May be Dennis & Thomas (1890)'s father - not clear thuogh
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May 1890 sees a Mary Ann Cross b 1856 in the workhouse with children Louisa (1881) William (1883) Albert (1886) Mary A (1887) and Dennis Cain (1889) Most are sent to Mitcham Schools or infirmary
1891 she's potentially back with another child, Thomas
Can anyone help me decode where Mary Ann Cross was discharged TO in that record? It looks like "GR" or "6R" or "OR" in the right hand margin, and this code/abbreviation is used a lot throughout the register.
BugBear
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OR = Own Request
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OR = Own Request
Walked out instead of being kicked out. :-)
Thank you.
BugBear
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Walked out instead of being kicked out. :-)
Own Request was often a default classification for paupers who were being discharged but were not being transferred to another institution, school, infirmary, asylum etc.
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With thanks to all, here is a basic tree representation of where I'm at.
BugBear
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Hi,
Baptism of Thomas Mark Cross b1855.
St Ann Limehouse
Born 17th Sept 1855 & baptised 25th Nov 1855, parents Thomas & Sarah Cross of Phebe St, Poplar. Father an engine driver.
Siblings for Thomas Mark Cross b1855 (all mmn Izard)
Cross, George William; March Qtr 1858; Poplar; Volume 1c Page 668
Cross, William Joseph; Sept Qtr 1860; Poplar Union; Volume 1c Page 597
Cross, Walter Henry; June Qtr 1863; Poplar Union; Volume 1c Page 663
Cross, Arthur Samuel; Sept Qtr 1865; Poplar Union; Volume 1c Page 674
Cross, Alfred Edward; March Qtr 1868; Poplar Union; Volume 1c Page 706
Cross, Henry Ernest; Sept Qtr 1870; Poplar Union; Volume 1c Page 592
Don't see baptisms for his brothers at the moment, neither can I see Thomas Mark Cross Snr & wife Sarah on any censuses!
Hope this helps anyway!
Kind regards
David
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Hi,
Looking at the marriage of Thomas Mark Cross & Sarah Izard at St Mary, Stratford Le Bow. It took place on 25th Nov 1855 by banns & shows both bride & groom both to be of full age & of Bow. Fathers John Cross a baker & Thomas Izard a lighterman. The witnesses were a Mark Cross who signed & an Ann Cross who made her mark.
Hope this helps.
Kind regards
David
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Hi,
Baptism of Thomas Mark/Thomas Cross Snr.
St Anne, Limehouse
Thomas Cross born 11th March 1822 & baptised 18th Aug 1822. Parents John & Elizabeth Cross of Limehouse. John Cross shown as a baker.
Hope this helps.
Kind regards
David
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Hi,
Can't find a marriage as yet for John & Elizabeth but here is the family in 1841 (HO107/702/8/13/20 & 21).
Wellington Alley, Poplar (on the corner of Well Street)
John Cross 50 J(ourneyman) Baker
Elizabeth Cross 45
Francis Cross 20 Tanner? & Brazier
Henry Cross 14
Thomas Cross 12
Mark Cross 9
Luke Cross 6
All born in county.
Age is out for Thomas as he should be 18/19 but with a brother Mark (one of the witnesses on Thomas's marriage) plus father John a baker, I feel this has to be the family.
Hope this helps.
Kind regards
David
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Hi,
1851 (HO107/1556/560/37)
Garden Place, All Saints Poplar.
Elizabeth Cross 58 Widow Born Bermondsey, Surrey
Henry Cross 24 Son Single Born Poplar, Middlesex
Mark Cross 18 Son Single Born Poplar, Middlesex
Luke Cross 15 Son Single Born Poplar, Middlesex (Lake Cross on Anc! ::))
The three boys have no occupation shown.
Hope this helps.
Kind regards
David
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Hi,
Possible death for John Cross from GRO index.
Cross, John; Dec Qtr 1844; Poplar Union; Age 54; Volume 02 Page 282
John was 50 on the 1841 census.
Hope this helps.
kind regards
David
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Hi,
Siblings for Thomas Mark Cross b1855 (all mmn Izard)
Cross, George William; March Qtr 1858; Poplar; Volume 1c Page 668
Cross, William Joseph; Sept Qtr 1860; Poplar Union; Volume 1c Page 597
Cross, Walter Henry; June Qtr 1863; Poplar Union; Volume 1c Page 663
Cross, Arthur Samuel; Sept Qtr 1865; Poplar Union; Volume 1c Page 674
Cross, Alfred Edward; March Qtr 1868; Poplar Union; Volume 1c Page 706
Cross, Henry Ernest; Sept Qtr 1870; Poplar Union; Volume 1c Page 592
Wow - do you have an easy way of getting that, or did you search (repeatedly) on the GRO website?
To all on this thread - I have done found a deep enough line that my primary purpose is served - this cross line is UNRELATED to my partners Cross line, so I will not be researching further.
It was a lot of work to prove a negative.
My humble thanks to those who not only helped with this particular trail, but who have also (as is often the case) showed me new search strategies and "way of seeing" .
BugBear
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Hi All i am new her i stumbled across this the other day and found it very intresting as on the family tree it shows Thomas Mark Cross born 1914-died 1972 when i was only 8 yrs old That is my Dad. It also shows his sisters and brothers i did start reserching a while back and traced back quite a way and also bought some of the certificates for earlier family. I know my dad was married before and i have other family out there somewhere if anyone is on this forum it would be great to get in touch Thanks Paul cross