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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: crunchyFrog on Saturday 13 January 18 05:59 GMT (UK)
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Hi,
I'm looking for any photos of Westbourne Square, London around 1927. All I can find is pictures of the area after 1944.
I'm searching for information. My Grandfather was found at age 3 in London, he was badly beaten and had a sign around his neck (not sure what it said). He grew up in an orphanage and never knew his family. We have a birth certificate and know his mothers name (Mary Kathleen Boucher) and we have managed to find an address in Paddington square in 1927. Things go very interesting recently when we discovered through ancestry.com DNA that he had siblings. Two that we know for certain and a potential 4th. We've been in contact with the siblings and they were all abandoned in the Paddington, St Pancras area, between 1927 and 1933.
We know that Mary Kathleen Boucher was my grandads mother, she was born in 1904. According to electoral rolls she was living with an Alfred Percy Smith around the same time as grandad was abandoned (Not sure if he is grandads father, his name is not on the birth certificate). I'm just trying to focus on Mary Kathleen Boucher at the moment and would like to see if I can find some photos of Paddington Square and where they lived. Are there newspaper archives I can access? I feel like a beaten toddler may have made the news? His brother was left on a church step at 10 days old and his sister was abandoned too. There is a birth certificate for another child of Mary Kathleen Boucher born in 1935. We don't know anything about her atm. Any help finding information would be great. We are trying to piece together everything that happened and try to understand things.
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Welcome to Rootschat. What an interesting but sad quest.
You say "the Paddington, St Pancras area" but those are two different areas. What is the source of the Paddington Square address - is it the 1927 birth certificate? Who was the informant of the birth? I see that the 1927 birth was in Paddington but the 1935 one was in St Pancras.
Re the 1935 birth: you are likely to be asked to remove the name from this public board because the date is recent enough that she may still be living. But once you have a couple of posts to your name you will be able to use the personal messaging (PM) system on here, and if you wanted to PM me fuller details, including her exact birthdate, I would be happy to see if I can find more on her.
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You can search the British Newspaper Archive (and also many overseas newspapers) through Findmypast.
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Is she the Mary Kathleen Boucher born in Shropshire - birth registered in Mar qtr 1905 Atcham? An online tree has her birthdate as 29 December 1904.
The same online tree has her daughter K dying unmarried (i.e. under surname Boucher) in London on 2 Jan 1975 - but is mistaken, as the person who died on that date was born in 1913, not 1935.
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That's her! December 29th.
Sorry, I'm not actually the one doing the most of the research and know nothing of London. So I'm sorry if I'm not giving enough info. I edited to remove the 1935 name.
They lived at 22 Westbourne Square...... just realised a made a huge error with my post ::)..... the only photos I can find of that area are after 1944 as it was bombed.
Grandad was found in Paddington.
Sorry, I'll go back and edit the post again.
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Aha - Westbourne Square rather than Paddington Square! That makes more sense.
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I hope they're mistaken the others are still alive and are really keen to kind her, it'd be a shame. I'd love to hear her story.
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Have you managed to find what happened to Mary Kathleen Boucher?
I can see a 1981 death in Cambridge for a Mary Kathleen Mercer with DOB 29 Dec 1904, which may or may not be relevant.
Mary Kathleen Mercer appears to have been the wife of an Edward Frederick Mercer born 7 May 1892 who died in Hereford in 1974. Not found their marriage yet.
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No we haven't. She's a mystery. That would be interesting we always assumed she never married. The whole thing sounds like a Hollywood movie though.
We have her living at Westbourne Square with Alfred Percy Smith and his wife Dorothy Mary Smith in the late 20's. We know Dorothy petitioned for divorce and then Alfred and Mary were living together at another address in 1930 with a baby (not my grandad, we assume this baby is his sister we've found but don't know for certain.) His sister was left in a doorway at 14 months old, on Quex Road, Kilburn. His brother was left at a church in St Cyprians. We have her living Burton st, St Pancras when the child in 1935 was born.
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Yes I think there is a good chance she is the one who lived as the wife of Edward F Mercer.
There is a possible son for them born in Ipswich in 1939, and a possible daughter born in Bournemouth in 1943. Search FreeBMD for Mercer births with mother's maiden name Boucher.
Bournemouth is a fit with where they are in the 1939 Register, according to the free index. You can access the 1939 Register on Findmypast.
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Wow!
If that is her, that will be huge. Thankyou!
I think I will keep looking and keep this to myself until I know. My Grandad is in shock about everything we've found in the last few months. He had no family and now is in contact with 2 siblings and their families. I know it's been emotional for them too.
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It looks likely that the son born in 1939 is still living in the Cambridge area - or at least has been on electoral rolls there in recent years.
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No we haven't. She's a mystery. That would be interesting we always assumed she never married. The whole thing sounds like a Hollywood movie though.
We have her living at Westbourne Square with Alfred Percy Smith and his wife Dorothy Mary Smith in the late 20's. We know Dorothy petitioned for divorce and then Alfred and Mary were living together at another address in 1930 with a baby (not my grandad, we assume this baby is his sister we've found but don't know for certain.) His sister was left in a doorway at 14 months old, on Quex Road, Kilburn. His brother was left at a church in St Cyprians. We have her living Burton st, St Pancras when the child in 1935 was born.
Going back to this - how do you know there was a baby in 1930? A baby would not appear in an electoral roll. I can see Alfred Percy Smith in 1927, 1928 with Dorothy at 22 Westbourne Grove, and in 1929 with Mary at the same address, but can't easily see the 1930 entry at all.
Just trying to piece it all together.
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Interesting from the 1937 electoral roll:
46 Warren St, St Pancras
Edward Frederick Mercer
Mary Kathleen Mercer
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My Cousin is doing that research, that's the information she gave.
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She hasn't made the Mercer connection that I know of though..... very interesting.
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There is a possible previous marriage for Edward F Mercer (to Jessie Bannister, 1922 in Tonbridge). I can't easily see what became of her, but if it is the same Edward and he had a living spouse it would explain why he apparently did not marry Mary Kathleen.
Update: it very likely is the same Edward Frederick Mercer born in Weston super Mare, Somerset on 7 May 1892; his school alumni records (St Lawrence College, Ramsgate) place him as living at 8 Modest Corner, Southbridge, Tunbridge Wells in the early 1920s.
Later, a passenger list shows him as a "timber expert" returning to the UK from St John's Newfoundland in August 1925 - UK address given as 7 Mount Zion, Tunbridge Wells. The corresponding Canadian immigration form for his arrival there in Dec 1924 (intended occupation: lumbering) confirms his birthplace as Somerset and his next of kin as his wife, Mrs Jessie Mercer, of 7 Mount Zion, Tunbridge Wells.
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You originally asked what the building would have looked like.
I lived in one in Paddington around 1936 and they were obviously originally very grand with servants quarters and wired pull bells from every room but time had taken its toll and they were reduced to one and two roomers.
The photo gives an idea.
Joe
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Wow, so she could change her name to Mercer even though they weren't married?
Thanks for the photo, it's nice to have an idea. I'm so grateful, for your help. It seems very likely that Mary Kathleen had two more children..... raises a lot of questions about her.
Thankyou so much.
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I have finally found where Westbourne Square was - now demolished and occupied by a 20th century development, Desborough Close.
Being up in the (never very fashionable) patch between the railway and the canal, it is unlikely to have been as grand as the previous image. A nearby survival of pre-war architecture is Blomfield Villas, which may or may not be a guide to what Westbourne Square looked like (google images of Blomfield Villas - I don't seem to able to post an image link). This general area was mostly developed in the 1840s-1850s.
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Having now looked at the 1861 census I may have to eat my words about fashionability. There are some very large and apparently well-to-do households in Westbourne Square, some with 5, 6 or 7 servants - so it does look as though they must have been large and imposing residences.
You may be interested to know that 22 Westbourne Square was occupied in 1861 by John J Wynne, a 57 yr old Irish-born barrister, with his wife Marcia, four children and an Irish-born female servant.
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Our theory was that she was a servant. We have a lot of “theories”. We thought she had an affair with Alfred Percy and that’s why Dorothy left. It’s all just speculation though. I need a time machine.
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Have you got a copy of the Smith divorce papers? They may be enlightening.
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C8049133
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Cousin has bought them, haven’t heard from her yet. When I last spoke to her she was waiting on them. Hoping it lists a reason.
Interestingly Grandad apparently went to the house when he was a teenager to find his mum and found it was a brothel. I don’t know how grandad knew the address and he is full of stories.
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http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/spy/#zoom=18.99629628698031&lat=51.5210&lon=-0.1875&layers=173&b=1
I’m not sure about desborough square been westbourne square, according to this map. It’s close though. I’m thinking it’d be similar. Or is that whole thing called desborough close?
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I can't access your link on my device, but comparing my (paper) Stanford"s map of 1862 with a modern map, it seemed to me the whole of Westbourne Square (which was small, and more triangular than square) is likely to be accounted for by the modern Desborough Close, which is larger.
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Yeah, there’s nothing original now. Thank heap for everything. I’m going to have follow the Mercer connection, maybe see if I can some certificates. It’s fascinating
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Having now looked at the 1861 census I may have to eat my words about fashionability. There are some very large and apparently well-to-do households in Westbourne Square, some with 5, 6 or 7 servants - so it does look as though they must have been large and imposing residences.
You may be interested to know that 22 Westbourne Square was occupied in 1861 by John J Wynne, a 57 yr old Irish-born barrister, with his wife Marcia, four children and an Irish-born female servant.
I am 90 years old and now live in Australia but my memories of the area are quite vivid.
My family lived in Delamere Crescent which was below and parallel to Delamere Terrace which was opposite the canal from Blomfield Terrace.... I used to cross the canal bridge to go to Amberley Street school.
Between Delamere Terrace and Delamere Crescent was a Catholic school which I could see into from my home I could see class rooms and on my 'wag' days I could see children and teachers... I add this for historical purposes.In the same area was a nunnery............ it was quite narrow but seemed to accommodate quite a number of nuns.
most of this was destroyed by bombing I forget the date but Delamere Crescent was so damaged it was condemned and no doubt most,if not all,of the rest of the area was too.
As I said previously the area originally somewhat grand but at my time,in a two roomer,it was very moth eaten and ugly.
I will find the night of the bombing and add to the discussion
Joe
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You were there when Grandad was abandoned, you’re the same age. The bombing has sure made things difficult, the closest thing I found was a photo of the square on VE Day and it was an awkward angle. From our research what we thought the area was originally wealthy and grand, but by 1927 the are was poorer and those buildings became multi-occupancy. Is that how you remember?
We’re looking into the Mercer link :)
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You are right those buildings were multi occupied.
Commonwealth Graves Commission used to include civilian deaths but no longer seem to do this ... it seems to cover military deaths only unfortunately.
The steps at the entrance of the nunnery seemed to be a favoured place for leaving babies.
Joe
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Apparently, Grandad was found near St Stephens Church when he was 3. It was a rough time, It just seems really strange to keep him till 3 and then abandon him. He had a sign around his neck, but no one now seems to know what it said.