RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Roscommon => Topic started by: philipsearching on Sunday 14 January 18 20:28 GMT (UK)
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Please could some kind Rootschatter have a look at the PR for the details of this marriage:
Basil SANDYS widower, to Caroline GREENHILL, 29 March 1840 St Mary, Lambeth.
I am particularly keen to know if Basil's age and father are cited.
(I have blown my research budget on Basil's family, so I would honestly prefer not to buy a cert if this is another red herring!)
Many thanks
Philip
Links to thread on USA board:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=248602.msg6408939#msg6408939
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Hi Philip,
The record on Ancestry is that of the banns of a Basil Sandys (Widower) to Caroline Greenhill (widow). There is no date against the names of the couple as there are against all the other couples on the page. This leads me to wonder if the marriage actually took place at all! There is no record of the marriage taking place on the 29th March 1840 at St Mary, Lambeth. This is presumably the date of the last reading of the banns.
FreeBmd shows only the one marriage of a Basil Sandys as follows:
Sandys, Basil; March Qtr 1855; Strand; Volume 1b Page 412
Possible spouses on the same page are Catharine Otter & Catherine Shepheard.
Apologies if the 1855 marriage is already known about!
Hope this helps.
Kind regards
David
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Is this him in 1841? No lady wife present.
Basil Sandys 40 born Ireland
Edwin Sandys 13
And a Caroline Greenhill 30 in 1841 with a 12 year old which, if the right Caroline, might prove they never actually married.
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Many thanks for your replies.
In the other post I linked to, there is a lot of information, but the challenge with Basil has been to find a marriage apart from the one to Catherine OTTER in 1855. Most of his children are documented, it's their mothers we are having trouble tracing.
Philip
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I believe Basil Sandys, 1800-1871 married a Catherine Devany about 1820. They had several children. There is a headstone in Derrane cemetery in Co. Roscommon recording her death in 1830, aged 30. She was the first of 3 Catherines Basil married.
Patrick Flanagan
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I believe Basil Sandys, 1800-1871 married a Catherine Devany about 1820. They had several children. There is a headstone in Derrane cemetery in Co. Roscommon recording her death in 1830, aged 30. She was the first of 3 Catherines Basil married.
Patrick Flanagan
A warm welcome to Rootschat and many thanks for this information.
I had the name Catherine Devany, but didn't know about Derrane. This is an exciting new lead. It is also rather intriguing because I have images of baptisms in London:
Mary Ann daughter of Basil SANDYS & Catherine (formerly DEVANEY) born 2 Dec 1831 bapt 10 Jan 1832.
Basil son of Basil SANDYS and Catherine (formerly DEVANEY) born 23 Feb bapt 23 Mar 1834.
As far as wives go, I have:
Catherine DEVANEY (baptisms of children c1826-34, no marriage yet found)
Catherine GERAGHTY (daughter born c1841, no marriage found)
Catherine OTTER (nee BIRMINGHAM (m1855 Strand, London, 3 children)
also Caroline GREENHILL - banns 1840 but no marriage.
Is there a website link to view the 1830 grave details?
Philip
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Thank you Philip. What I have is a transcription from a gravestone in Derrane cemetery where many of the Sandys are buried. It reads as followe;
Devaney. Lord have mercy on the soul of Daniel Devaney who depd. this life 3rd Jan. 1833 aged 78 yrs also his daughter Catherine Sandys who departed this life 1st Feb 1830 aged 30 yrs. Also six of their children who died younger. Also his son Thomas who died 25th May 1835 aged 14 yrs. Also his wife Margaret Devaney alias Judge who depd. this life 21st Jan 1865 aged 78 yrs. May they rest in peace.
The death year of 1830 does not tally with the 2 later births in London. Maybe the year on the headstone was transcribed wrongly.
I have a date of September 21 1837 for Basil's marriage to Catherine Geraghty.
Newspaper reports for June 1839 state that Basil was arrested and committed to the county gaol for a violent assault on his eldest daughter, one of six children from a previous marriage. The young girl was aged 13 and when Basil returned after being out for a short time he accused her of neglecting to attend to her brothers and sisters. He beat her with the bone handle of a whip, fracturing her skull. The newspaper report states that his wife, the step-mother of the children was not at home at the time. It appears Basil was not charged as he shows up in London in 1840
I have been researching the story of Basil's life for some time with a view to writing an article for a Roscommon Journal. As some descendants still live in the area it is possible the item may not be published.
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If you don't already have them I have images of Basil's Excise papers and various workhouse admissions as well as a few BMDs and census pages which I could send you. (If interested, send me a personal message)
I had the 1837 marriage date for Basil and Catherine GERAGHTY but just can't find a registration for it.
The other thing that occurs to me is about Catherine SANDYS daughter of Daniel DEVANEY. Could there have been more than one Catherine DEVANEY who married a SANDYS?
Philip
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This is fun. constable and I have shared information, but it still hasn't been possible to pin down details for Basil's first two marriages.
1) to Catherine DEVANEY (eldest daughter born c1826. Marriage probably in Roscommon)
2) to Catherine GERAGHTY? ? 21 Sep 1837. (daughter born c1840)
3) to Caroline GREENHILL (banns 29 Mar 1840 Lambeth) NO MARRIAGE, NO KNOWN CHILDREN
4) to Catherine OTTER (nee BIRMINGHAM) 19 Mar 1855 Soho. ALL DETAILS FOUND
With parents established in Roscommon and Basil working (mostly?) in England this search drags on.
Philip
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renamed and relocated as requested
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I agree marriage to Catherine Devaney most likely took place in Roscommon. Basil also had a son James with Catherine Geraghty and it is his descendants who live in the area now
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renamed and relocated as requested
dawnsh, you star!
For information - this thread started as a search for a marriage between Basil SANDYS and Caroline GREENHILL which (although banns were read in Lambeth) never took place.
It has developed into a search for marriages of Basil SANDYS:
1) to Catherine DEVANEY (eldest daughter born c1826)
2) to Catherine GERAGHTY ?21 Sep 1837. (daughter born c1840).
If there were marriages they were most likely in Roscommon as there were local DEVANEY and GERAGHTY families. The date 21 Sep 1837 for marriage (2) has no primary source attached.
Philip
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Thank you Philip. What I have is a transcription from a gravestone in Derrane cemetery
https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0559 Kilbride Parish
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Kilbride All known copies of records
https://www.johngrenham.com/records/rc_church.php?churchid=0559&parish=Kilbride
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Thank you Philip. What I have is a transcription from a gravestone in Derrane cemetery
https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0559 Kilbride Parish
Thank you for this link.
It seems that available marriage records start in 1838 (1 year too late!), no burials, baptisms from 1835.
So far the only SANDYS I have found in the baptisms is William sponsoring two baptisms.
Basil's father and father's siblings were baptised in St Peters Dublin (CoI) and his grandfather and 2xGt grandfather were High Sherriffs of Roscommon, so I would expect Basil to be CoI (I should have mentioned this - I apologise for the omission).
The hunt goes on!
Philip
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Deceased Surname Sandys
Deceased Forename James
Primary Beneficiary/Executor Michael Sandys
Sec. Beneficiary/Executor William Sandys
Date of Death 7 Mar 1904
County of Death Roscommon
http://www.willcalendars.nationalarchives.ie/reels/cwa/005014914/005014914_00244.pdf
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Not much in Roscommon/Leitrim newspapers for Sandys
Newspaper Subject: SAINTJOHN JOHN WOOD ISLAND BALLINAMORE COUNTY LEITRIM
Newspaper: Roscommon & Leitrim Gazette
Newspaper Content: Signed notice to tenants of Mrs. Elizabeth Sandys Saint Johns lands at Cloonara and Killbride Rent due to be paid.
Date: 22 March 1823
In order to source this newspaper article, please supply all of the information below in an email to localstudies'at'leitrimcoco.ie
Bib #: 222601
LDR: 00000nam 22000255 4500
1000: $a newsNM
900: $a Roscommon & Leitrim Gazette
902: $a 22 March 1823
903: $a Signed notice to tenants of Mrs. Elizabeth Sandys Saint Johns lands at Cloonara and Killbride Rent due to be paid.
904: 0 $a SAINTJOHN JOHN WOOD ISLAND BALLINAMORE COUNTY LEITRIM
907: $a 3 c4
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Not much in Roscommon/Leitrim newspapers for Sandys
Newspaper Subject: SAINTJOHN JOHN WOOD ISLAND BALLINAMORE COUNTY LEITRIM
Newspaper: Roscommon & Leitrim Gazette
Newspaper Content: Signed notice to tenants of Mrs. Elizabeth Sandys Saint Johns lands at Cloonara and Killbride Rent due to be paid.
Date: 22 March 1823
In order to source this newspaper article, please supply all of the information below in an email to localstudies'at'leitrimcoco.ie
Bib #: 222601
LDR: 00000nam 22000255 4500
1000: $a newsNM
900: $a Roscommon & Leitrim Gazette
902: $a 22 March 1823
903: $a Signed notice to tenants of Mrs. Elizabeth Sandys Saint Johns lands at Cloonara and Killbride Rent due to be paid.
904: 0 $a SAINTJOHN JOHN WOOD ISLAND BALLINAMORE COUNTY LEITRIM
907: $a 3 c4
I have a reasonable amount of information about the SANDYS family prior to c1820, and at the moment I'm just searching for Basil's marriages c1820-1840.
I haven't got as far as tracking any descendants of his siblings or forebears in Roscommon. I really do appreciate your searching, but until I sort out the marriages I'm stuck.
Philip
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I know not what you want BUT have you tried Sandy instead??
Newspaper: Leitrim Observer
Newspaper Content: Mr R Sandy transferred from Carndonagh to Carrick Northern Bank
Date: 11 February 1905
Newspaper Subject: Bank Northern (Carrick On Shannon)
Newspaper: Leitrim Observer
Newspaper Content: Transferred from Carndonagh to Carrick on Shannon Northern Bank.
Date: 11 February 1905
Newspaper Subject: SANDYS M MISTER NORTHERN BANK CARRICK ON SHANNON
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I know not what you want BUT have you tried Sandy instead??
I've tried SAND, SANDES, SANDIS, SANDY, SANDYS (and replacing the first S with B or G) and just about every variation I can think of :(
Still no joy with weddings or baptisms apart from those cited on the other thread
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=248602.msg6408939#msg6408939
I'll get there one day!
Philip
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Phi;ip, don't forget that Basil and Catherine Geraghty also had a son James, born about 1846. When he married Margaret White in February 1873 he gave his age as 26. He died in Durham Lodge in 1904, aged 58.
I can get a marriage cert for Eliza Aldwell Sandys in 1860, do you think it would be of any help? She must have been quite young and also it is peculiar that she married in Banbridge, Northern Ireland.
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Phi;ip, don't forget that Basil and Catherine Geraghty also had a son James, born about 1846. When he married Margaret White in February 1873 he gave his age as 26. He died in Durham Lodge in 1904, aged 58.
I can get a marriage cert for Eliza Aldwell Sandys in 1860, do you think it would be of any help? She must have been quite young and also it is peculiar that she married in Banbridge, Northern Ireland.
When he married Margaret White in February 1873 in Cloverhill RC Church!!
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Phi;ip, don't forget that Basil and Catherine Geraghty also had a son James, born about 1846. When he married Margaret White in February 1873 he gave his age as 26. He died in Durham Lodge in 1904, aged 58.
I can get a marriage cert for Eliza Aldwell Sandys in 1860, do you think it would be of any help? She must have been quite young and also it is peculiar that she married in Banbridge, Northern Ireland.
So not RC...
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Basil's brother, William was a major landowner in Derrane, Co. Roscommon at the time of Griffiths Valuation in 1857-58. Martin Geraghty, maybe father or brother of Catherine who married Basil leased 10 acres in the area from Robert Goff. and a Margaret Devany leased 4 acres from William Sandys.
This suggests that two of Basil's wives, Catherine Devany and Catherine Geraghty would have been neighbours of the Sandys.
Philip, I have doubts about the Catherine Geraghty you found in Dublin having any connection.
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Phi;ip, don't forget that Basil and Catherine Geraghty also had a son James, born about 1846. When he married Margaret White in February 1873 he gave his age as 26. He died in Durham Lodge in 1904, aged 58.
I can get a marriage cert for Eliza Aldwell Sandys in 1860, do you think it would be of any help? She must have been quite young and also it is peculiar that she married in Banbridge, Northern Ireland.
Pedigree of Sandys of Derham Lodge, Co Roscomon, 1788-1924. GO MS 172: 215
______________________________
Durham Lodge (H5040)
Elizabeth Sandys advertised for sale "Durham Lodge" and 39 acres in July 1854. The Sandys house was valued at £3 in the 1850s and in 1906. This house was held in fee by William "Sands" at the time of Griffith's Valuation. It is not named on the 1st edition Ordnance Survey map but is shown as Durham Lodge on subsequent editions. A farm is still extant at the site.
___________________________
Edwyn Sandys Reynolds, a Protestant gentleman, resided at "Darham" in 1749. Robert Sandes was living at Sandfield House, barony of Athlone, in county Roscommon in the early 19th century. By the mid 19th century a Sandys family also held some land in Derrane, barony of Ballintober South, including Durham Lodge. James Sandys of Durham Lodge owned 158 acres in the 1870s.
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I believe that the Sandys family were Protestant but Basil was definitely Catholic, perhaps he changed to facilitate his marriage to Catherine Devany. His son James and his family were also Catholic. Basil's daughter Eliza Aldwell Sandys may have been Protestant.
Basil and his brother William contributed to the building of a Catholic church at Derrane [pronounced Darn]
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I'd be inclined to get
Pedigree of Sandys of Derham Lodge, Co. Roscommon, 1788 -- 1924.
Dublin: National Library of Ireland, Genealogical Office: Ms. 172, p. 215
which, as it is only 1 page would be very very reasonable, and usable a a Source for all on it.
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Thanks hallmark, I will check that out, could be useful
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You may need to find someone willing to share the expense!!
Price List
Cost
Photocopying €0.50 per opening (one or two pages)
Get via email as postage within Ireland is €3, postage outside Ireland €6
National Library staff can make photocopies, printouts, digital images and prints of items in the Collection depending on the size, format and condition of the material.
There is also a range of self-service copying facilities available to readers.
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Many thanks, I have just emailed the Library to advise me on how proceed. Seems promising!
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Email is copy-orders'at'nli.ie
but they are very good at replying if you use another email address!
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Phi;ip, don't forget that Basil and Catherine Geraghty also had a son James, born about 1846. When he married Margaret White in February 1873 he gave his age as 26. He died in Durham Lodge in 1904, aged 58.
I can get a marriage cert for Eliza Aldwell Sandys in 1860, do you think it would be of any help? She must have been quite young and also it is peculiar that she married in Banbridge, Northern Ireland.
I believe that the Sandys family were Protestant but Basil was definitely Catholic, perhaps he changed to facilitate his marriage to Catherine Devany. His son James and his family were also Catholic. Basil's daughter Eliza Aldwell Sandys may have been Protestant.
Basil and his brother William contributed to the building of a Catholic church at Derrane [pronounced Darn]
hallmark - I have the marriage cert for William CORDNER to Eliza Aldwell SANDYS 21 Sep 1860 in Loughbrickland Presbyterian church. (they are my 2x gt grandparents). (There are other threads on CORDNER on Rootschat)
I didn't know about James born c1846 - many thanks for that information.
constable - I hadn't considered that Basil might have converted (careless of me!) - that re-opens avenues to search that I had not followed properly.
[the strange sound you can hear is me pacing around the room muttering to myself - thinking deeply about this exciting new information]
Philip
(ADDED - I have a note of an unconfirmed marriage William SANDYS to Bridget GERAGHTY - I wonder if this is two brothers marrying two sisters)
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Bridget Sandys died in Derrane 5 October 1878, described as the widow of a gentleman farmer. The informant was Winifred Geraghty
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While not Basil.... I see Henry Sandys in Wicklow selling lands in Roscommon
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSJW-TQKY?i=453&cat=185720
Might be useful for future??
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Roscommon Messenger Roscommon, Republic of Ireland
12 Mar 1904
DEATH OF MR JAMES SANDYS, DURHAM
DEATH OF MR JAMES SANDYS, DURHAM. We deeply regret to have announce the death of Mr James Sandys, of Durham Lodge, Roscommon, which occurred on Monday last, at a comparatively early age, private hospital in Dublin-
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From Genes Reunited British Newspaper Archive
Roscommon & Leitrim Gazette Roscommon, Republic of Ireland
15 Jun 1839
On evening last, Mr. Basil Sandys, who has resided in this town for some months back, and who held the situation of excise officer, went out for some short..
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How true is this??
?
_________________________________-
https://www.genealogy.com/ftm/b/e/a/Wendy-Beasley-BC/WEBSITE-0001/UHP-0405.html
Basil (Bazel) Sandys (b. 1800, d. 1871)
Basil (Bazel) Sandys (son of Edwin Sandys and Catherine Aldwell) was born 1800 in Rathkeale, Limerick, Ireland, and died 1871
.He married (1) Unknown.He married (2) Catherine Geraghty on 21 Sep 1837.He married (3) Catherine Otter on 1855.
More About Basil (Bazel) Sandys:
Census 1: 1861, Shows a daughter Sarah aged 4.
Census 2: 1841, Shows Eliza born.
Census 3: 1871, Shows him working as a lawyers clerk.
Crimes 1: 10 Jun 1839, Basil was arrested for and beating his 13 year old daughter sensless and the bone handle of the whip punctured her scull,fracturing it.It seems she had not looked after her syblings as well as he wanted.The child 's mother was dead..
Crimes 2: 1845, Marshalsea Debtors prison, held for possible non payment of a debt..
Died 2: Abt. 1871, Wrote letter home, dies in London.
Endowment (LDS): 1845, Basil and brother Willam donate land for a Church to be built..
Marriages 1: It is possible he was married three times. There were children from the first marrage, at least four, one was the 13year old girl beaten and brain damaged by Basil..
Marriages 2: 1822, Signs marriage articles, father, Edwin, deceased..
Marriages 3: 1855, Catherine Otter.
Occupation 1: 1827, Becomes Excise Officer.
Occupation 2: 1836, Before this date wasposted at Longford, as Excise Officer.
Residence 1: 1850, London.
Residence 2: 1939, London.
More About Basil (Bazel) Sandys and Catherine Geraghty:
Marriage: 21 Sep 1837
More About Basil (Bazel) Sandys and Catherine Otter:
Marriage: 1855
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http://www.csorp.nationalarchives.ie/search/index.php?simpleSearchSbm=Search&category=27&searchDescTxt=Sandys&offset=0&browseresults=true
Nothing on Basil.....
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How true is this??
?
_______________________________-
https://www.genealogy.com/ftm/b/e/a/Wendy-Beasley-BC/WEBSITE-0001/UHP-0405.html
Basil (Bazel) Sandys (b. 1800, d. 1871)
Basil (Bazel) Sandys (son of Edwin Sandys and Catherine Aldwell) was born 1800 in Rathkeale, Limerick, Ireland, and died 1871
.He married (1) Unknown.He married (2) Catherine Geraghty on 21 Sep 1837.He married (3) Catherine Otter on 1855.
More About Basil (Bazel) Sandys:
Census 1: 1861, Shows a daughter Sarah aged 4.
Census 2: 1841, Shows Eliza born.
Census 3: 1871, Shows him working as a lawyers clerk.
Crimes 1: 10 Jun 1839, Basil was arrested for and beating his 13 year old daughter sensless and the bone handle of the whip punctured her scull,fracturing it.It seems she had not looked after her syblings as well as he wanted.The child 's mother was dead..
Crimes 2: 1845, Marshalsea Debtors prison, held for possible non payment of a debt..
Died 2: Abt. 1871, Wrote letter home, dies in London.
Endowment (LDS): 1845, Basil and brother Willam donate land for a Church to be built..
Marriages 1: It is possible he was married three times. There were children from the first marrage, at least four, one was the 13year old girl beaten and brain damaged by Basil..
Marriages 2: 1822, Signs marriage articles, father, Edwin, deceased..
Marriages 3: 1855, Catherine Otter.
Occupation 1: 1827, Becomes Excise Officer.
Occupation 2: 1836, Before this date wasposted at Longford, as Excise Officer.
Residence 1: 1850, London.
Residence 2: 1939, London.
More About Basil (Bazel) Sandys and Catherine Geraghty:
Marriage: 21 Sep 1837
More About Basil (Bazel) Sandys and Catherine Otter:
Marriage: 1855
The entries I have highlighted in blue are either incorrect or unknown to me.
1800 born in Rathkeale. This is from his Excise application. 1856 Settlement Return has 28 Aug 1800 in Cork - but I haven't seen a source for this
1822 signs marriage articles - I don't know anything about this
1841 census England - Basil was with son Edwin - no sign of wife or other children. (The first proved sighting of Eliza/Elizabeth Aldwell Sandys is her marriage)
1845 Basil & William donate land to Church. Doesn't really fit with being in debtors prison!
1845 - Marshalsea debtors prison I don't know anything about this
1871 - died 14 July (death cert). I don't know about a letter
1939 residence - obviously incorrect.
My cousin Wendy Beasley is pretty much correct, but there are occasional errors and lack of cited sources. Her tribalpages page is more accurate and up-to-date.
Philip
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Great, straightforward reply!!
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Great, straightforward reply!!
Thank you, kind sir. As you are taking very much appreciated time and trouble on this search I will do my best.
I am curious about Basil in 1845. Donating land to the Church and being in Marshalsea debtor's prison is very odd. I need to see if I can prove the Marshalsea event.
(ADDED: http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=382442.0 seems to disprove this)
Philip
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1822 signs marriage articles - Is this the Marriage Articles of 1824 that your cousin is referring to??
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Great, straightforward reply!!
Thank you, kind sir. As you are taking very much appreciated time and trouble on this search I will do my best.
I am curious about Basil in 1845. Donating land to the Church and being in Marshalsea debtor's prison is very odd. I need to see if I can prove the Marshalsea event.
(ADDED: http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=382442.0 seems to disprove this)
Philip
That is Why I was even reluctant to post that Genealogy.com tree... At first glance it looks as if good research has been done and what is there is factual!!
I did notice him dying twice!! ;D ;D
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1822 signs marriage articles - Is this the Marriage Articles of 1824 that your cousin is referring to??
I suppose she might have been, but I think this must be a previously unknown relative.
Edwin SANDYS Esquire to Elizabeth MOORE, with Revd Thomas Aldwell MOORE named.
Basil's parents were Edwin SANDYS and Catherine ALDWELL, so there must be a family link somewhere.
This is exciting!
Philip
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1822 signs marriage articles - Is this the Marriage Articles of 1824 that your cousin is referring to??
I suppose she might have been, but I think this must be a previously unknown relative.
Edwin SANDYS Esquire to Elizabeth MOORE, with Revd Thomas Aldwell MOORE named.
Basil's parents were Edwin SANDYS and Catherine ALDWELL, so there must be a family link somewhere.
This is exciting!
Philip
Well that is from Grantor index K-Z 1822-1824 and there is only that one for 1824!!
None for 1822!
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The only mention of Edwin 1822 to 1824 as you can see.
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The only mention of Edwin 1822 to 1824 as you can see.
Wow! Which site is that from?
Philip
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I see Durham Abbey mentioned instead of Durham Lodge for Basil!
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The only mention of Edwin 1822 to 1824 as you can see.
Wow! Which site is that from?
Philip
They are on familysearch... I see your cousin has quoted one "Endowment (LDS): 1845, Basil and brother William donate land for a Church to be built.."
Must be the one to Booth.
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hallmark - thank you so much for this and the PMs.
I cannot understand how Basil's finances seem to have been so up-and down! Even if the debtors prison idea is incorrect there are confirmed Workhouse register entries for children Mary Ann and Basil (1840-41) then Basil senior in 1843 (two admissions). Or maybe he was just not a good father?
Definitely one of the odder characters in my lineage!
Philip
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Crimes 2: 1845, Marshalsea Debtors prison, held for possible non payment of a debt..
Obviously Incorrect!!
The Marshalsea dates from medieval times and closed in 1842, being demolished soon afterwards. All that is left to be seen of this once notorious debtors' prison is this length of the wall in Angel Court.
http://knowledgeoflondon.com/marshalsea.html
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hallmark - thank you so much for this and the PMs.
I cannot understand how Basil's finances seem to have been so up-and down! Even if the debtors prison idea is incorrect there are confirmed Workhouse register entries for children Mary Ann and Basil (1840-41) then Basil senior in 1843 (two admissions). Or maybe he was just not a good father?
Definitely one of the odder characters in my lineage!
Philip
That is why I asked you what fact, what is fiction in that "tree".... the Blue ones you entered shows what needs to be checked/altered/removed so that once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth. ;D
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hallmark - thank you so much for this and the PMs.
I cannot understand how Basil's finances seem to have been so up-and down! The debtors prison idea is incorrect there are confirmed Workhouse register entries for children Mary Ann and Basil (1840-41) then Basil senior in 1843 (two admissions). Or maybe he was just not a good father?
Definitely one of the odder characters in my lineage!
Philip
There are confirmed Workhouse register entries for children Mary Ann and Basil (1840-41) then Basil senior in 1843 (two admissions) ....Where?? For Illness?
Is it possible they had Cholera or similar and were "hospitalized" instead of possibly spreading it to others at home??
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St. Coman's
Ballypheasan
Henry Street
Roscommon , Roscommon
Ireland
Here Lyeth the Body
of the Honourable Mrs Elizth Sandys
Daughter to Roger Jones Viscount
Ranalagh who was married to
Colonel Robert Sandys third Son
of Sr Edwin Sandys of Northburn
in K_____ Famous for his Travels into
the East & eldest Son to Edwin
Sandys Lord Bishop of York. She had
three Sons Nine Daughter and
?_________________________
________________________
_______________________?
http://historicgraves.com/st-coman-s/ro-stco-0226/grave
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There are confirmed Workhouse register entries for children Mary Ann and Basil (1840-41) then Basil senior in 1843 (two admissions) ....Where?? For Illness?
Is it possible they had Cholera or similar and were "hospitalized" instead of possibly spreading it to others at home??
Basil senior's 1843 admissions were for illness (unspecified)
Basil jr and Mary Ann were brought into the Ratcliffe & Mile End workhouse by police as destitute in 1840 and discharged to Limehouse Establishment on 15 June 1840. On the 1841 Census they were in the workhouse.
Marshalsea debtor's prison is incorrect as it had already closed, but I can't rule out debt! Quoting my post but amending it is confusing.
Philip
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St. Coman's
Ballypheasan
Henry Street
Roscommon , Roscommon
Ireland
Here Lyeth the Body
of the Honourable Mrs Elizth Sandys
Daughter to Roger Jones Viscount
Ranalagh who was married to
Colonel Robert Sandys third Son
of Sr Edwin Sandys of Northburn
in K_____ Famous for his Travels into
the East & eldest Son to Edwin
Sandys Lord Bishop of York. She had
three Sons Nine Daughter and
?_________________________
________________________
_______________________?
http://historicgraves.com/st-coman-s/ro-stco-0226/grave
I found a 19th century transcription which reads:
Here lieth the Body of The Honourable Mrs Elizth Sandys Daughter to Roger Jones, Viscount Ranelagh, who was married to Colonel Robert Sandys third son of Sr Edwin Sandys of Northborn in Kent, Famous for his Travels into the East, and eldest son to Edwin Sandy Lord Bishop of York. She had three sons and nine daughters, and survived them all. She departed this life the 14th of April 1701 in the 76th year of her age and was interred By her son Robert's widow Mrs Mary Sandys alias Reynolds, who out of true affection to her Erected this Monument . Also the body of Edwin Sandys Reynolds of Darham Esqr and Jane his wife. Ye Monument Re Erected by Nehemiah Sandys of Sandfield, eldest surving son to [remainder buried]
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There are confirmed Workhouse register entries for children Mary Ann and Basil (1840-41) then Basil senior in 1843 (two admissions) ....Where?? For Illness?
Is it possible they had Cholera or similar and were "hospitalized" instead of possibly spreading it to others at home??
Basil senior's 1843 admissions were for illness (unspecified)
Basil jr and Mary Ann were brought into the Ratcliffe & Mile End workhouse by police as destitute in 1840 and discharged to Limehouse Establishment on 15 June 1840. On the 1841 Census they were in the workhouse.
Marshalsea debtor's prison is incorrect as it had already closed, but I can't rule out debt! Quoting my post but amending it is confusing.
Philip
Sorry, am just trying to keep track with what is fact!!
Who is Elizabeth Aldwell Sandys (The first proved sighting of Eliza/Elizabeth Aldwell Sandys is her marriage) ? Who did dhe marry?
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This doesn't come up when searching the newspapers so doesn't have references but if you email the Library via address posted on other snippets and explain this then there is a good chance they will look it up for you!
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Roscommon & Leitrim Gazette Roscommon, Republic of Ireland
15 Jun 1839
On evening last, Mr. Basil Sandys, who has resided in this town for some months back, and who held the situation of excise officer, went out for some short..
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Who is Elizabeth Aldwell Sandys (The first proved sighting of Eliza/Elizabeth Aldwell Sandys is her marriage) ? Who did dhe marry?
From marriage registration:
Loughbrickland Presbyterian Church, Aghaderg, Co Down (RD - Banbridge) 21 Sep 1860
William Bell CORDNER, 20, merchant, of Tandragee Co Armagh, father William CORDNER farmer
Eliza Aldwell SANDYS, 19, of Durhamlet (?) Co Roscommon, father Bazil SANDYS excise officer
(Newspaper announcements name Basil's father as Edward son of Squire Sandys, but this must be an error for Edwin)
Philip
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This doesn't come up when searching the newspapers so doesn't have references but if you email the Library via address posted on other snippets and explain this then there is a good chance they will look it up for you!
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Roscommon & Leitrim Gazette Roscommon, Republic of Ireland
15 Jun 1839
On evening last, Mr. Basil Sandys, who has resided in this town for some months back, and who held the situation of excise officer, went out for some short..
That is an intriguing snippet. I feel that I want to offer a prize for anyone who comes up with a witty and original ending. ;D ;D ;D
I'll do some digging on it.
It definitely places him in Roscommon in the months up to June 1839, which is useful.
Philip
(http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=800821 - new post hoping for an answer)
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This doesn't come up when searching the newspapers so doesn't have references but if you email the Library via address posted on other snippets and explain this then there is a good chance they will look it up for you!
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Roscommon & Leitrim Gazette Roscommon, Republic of Ireland
15 Jun 1839
On evening last, Mr. Basil Sandys, who has resided in this town for some months back, and who held the situation of excise officer, went out for some short..
That is an intriguing snippet. I feel that I want to offer a prize for anyone who comes up with a witty and original ending. ;D ;D ;D
I'll do some digging on it.
It definitely places him in Roscommon in the months up to June 1839, which is useful.
Philip
(http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=800821 - new post hoping for an answer)
It is in the Longford Leader and says " Mr. Basil Sandys, who has re- sided in this town for some months back....."
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Sorry... Longford Journal
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Also in Roscommon & Leitrim Gazette
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Full text now found, thanks to Sc00p
Cut and paste from Freemans Journal... Tue 11 Jun 1839 p3.
LAMENTABLE OCCURRENCE. On Tuesday evening last Mr. Basil Sandys, who has re- sided in this town for some months back, and who held the situation of excise officer, went out for some short time from his house in Church-street, leaving his family of six children behind him; on his return he found that the eldest, a fine girl of thirteen years of age, had neglected to attend to her brothers and sisters, as directed by her father when going out; he immediately laid hold of her, and commenced beating her with the thong of a whip which he took down for that purpose. After beating her for some time, and whilst in a violent fit of passion, he turned the handle of the whip and struck her on the crown of the head; a bone crook which was on the handle entered the child's skull to some depth, and fractured it. She now lies in the county infirmary, in a hopeless state, and Mr. Sandys has been arrested and committed to our county gaol, awaiting the result. Mr. Sandys is respectably connected in the county of Roscommon, and his wife, the stepmother of the children, was not at home it occurred -- Longford Journal
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So, he had 6 children and looks like he was married twice by then, if I read it correctly.....how does that fit in with tree?
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The Consolidated Index To the Records of the Genealogical Office
Dublin, Ireland
Compiled by Virginia Wade McAnlis
SANDYS
GO MS 37 Irish Arms at College of Heralds p.25, 51 or 54, 112, 252
GO MS 223-54 Betham Will Abstracts 1/351, 5/106, 8/66, 9/86, 12/4, 13/262,
19/89, 23/299, 27/83, 30/290 - Lodge 2/67, 5/118, 6/8, 10/23 of Sandfield, Co. Roscommon
GO MS 292-298 Betham Sketch Pedigrees Series 2, VII, p.59 of Co. Roscommon
GO MS 404-5 Davies MSS II, no page given Loose Pedigrees
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I haven't got as far as tracking any descendants of his siblings or forebears in Roscommon. I really do appreciate your searching, but until I sort out the marriages I'm stuck.
Philip
Notably, the Sandys name (pronounced, and sometimes spelt, ‘Sands’) appeared in this area of County Longford around the time of this murder; Colonel Robert Sandys was another Cromwellian soldier who settled in, and was appointed High Sherriff of, County Roscommon (died 1684), while a Sandys family settled in Crevaghmore, County Longford, and included the wonderfully named Freke Sandys, who married in 1683; in the 1659 Census Symon Sandys was a ‘titulado’ of Crevaghmore. Robert Sands Esq., ‘Collector in the County of Longford’, was prosecuted for ‘demanding crown rents on waste lands between 1692 and 1695, contrary to the vote of the Irish House of Commons’.
https://moxhamireland.wordpress.com/2014/06/21/tashinny-church/
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Here's something that may be of interest ..
On Monday 17th July 1865 (Saunders’s News-letter and Advertiser, Dublin) an article under Sale of Valuable Life Policies states that …
No. 5 - Policy on life of Basil Sandys, Esq., formerly of Durham Abbey, County of Roscommon, in Standard Life Office, dated 9th January 1840, for £500 and bonuses; annual premium, £12 8s 7d., payable 9th January. The bonuses have been applied in reduction of the premium, which was £8 8s 9d. Said Basil Sandys is now in his 64th year.
(the £8 8s 9d is difficult to read)
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Here's something that may be of interest ..
On Monday 17th July 1865 (Saunders’s News-letter and Advertiser, Dublin) an article under Sale of Valuable Life Policies states that …
No. 5 - Policy on life of Basil Sandys, Esq., formerly of Durham Abbey, County of Roscommon, in Standard Life Office, dated 9th January 1840, for £500 and bonuses; annual premium, £12 8s 7d., payable 9th January. The bonuses have been applied in reduction of the premium, which was £8 8s 9d. Said Basil Sandys is now in his 64th year.
(the £8 8s 9d is difficult to read)
Many thanks for posting this. I had seen it and it adds to the mystery of Basil's finances - which is a whole other issue! ???
The problem for me is proving Basil's first two marriages - he hopped between England and Ireland and it's not easy to find hard evidence.
marriage 1 - Catherine DEVANEY before 1827 - she is named on her father's gravestone in Derrane as died on 1 Feb (transcript says 1830, but more likely 1836)
marriage 2 - Catherine GERAGHTY c1837-1840 (unsourced date 21 Sep 1837 - location not given)
[marriage 3 - Catherine OTTER (nee BERMINGHAM) 19 Mar 1855 - I have a copy of the marriage certificate]
Philip
p.s. - hallmark, my apologies for missing your September posts. Basil's lineage is established, it's just these b****y marriages ??? ???
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No problem.
I see Catherine Geraghty and Catherine Gerahty had Durham Abbey
Wonder why the 2 spellings!
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Pedigree of Sandys of Derham Lodge, Co Roscomon, 1788-1924. GO MS 172: 215
National Library of Ireland
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No problem.
I see Catherine Geraghty and Catherine Gerahty had Durham Abbey
Wonder why the 2 spellings!
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WOW! Where is this snippet from? I've not seen it before. It's the first document I've seen naming other GERAGHTY family.
The SANDYS pedigree I have (obtained from NLI) is a handwritten tree which has Basil d1861 (should be 1871) m1837 Catherine dau of Martin Geraghty with one son James 1846-1904. No mention of Basil's other wives and family.
Philip
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They are all on familysearch.
Somebody did "tree" snippet I posted previously, I presume they would have researched the Gerathys too on same search site.
I only had a couple of minutes to search for any Gerathy marriage agreement/settlement to Sandys.. none!
Are there 2 Catherines?? Hence 2 spellings?
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Source...
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=765484.0
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They are all on familysearch.
Somebody did "tree" snippet I posted previously, I presume they would have researched the Gerathys too on same search site.
I only had a couple of minutes to search for any Gerathy marriage agreement/settlement to Sandys.. none!
Are there 2 Catherines?? Hence 2 spellings?
Source...
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=765484.0
A thousand thanks for this. I found the FamilySearch page
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/185720?availability=Family%20History%20Library
so that's my homework for the next few evenings!
I don't know if there is more than one Catherine GERAGHTY/GERAHTY - I haven't researched that line yet. All I have is the handwritten pedigree claiming she was the daughter of Martin. I think that will be my next month's homework :)
Philip
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I tried looking for Basil being locked up in the prison that was closed for years before his sentence. Nothing.
Lancelot was nearest within time frame!
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Sorry..Hannibal! ::)
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Not much details on Pedigree for Basil's generation...
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It is possible Basil inherited Edwin's Debts too...
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It is possible Basil inherited Edwin's Debts too...
There are several Edwins on the branches of this tree and I'm not sure that these debts were of Basil's father Edwin.
Philip
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Neither do I! ;D
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What is the origin if that Geraghty snippet? Does it mean Geraghty's address was Durham Abbey@
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What is the origin if that Geraghty snippet? Does it mean Geraghty's address was Durham Abbey@
What is the origin if that Geraghty snippet?
familysearch!
Does it mean Geraghty's address was Durham Abbey?
Yes.
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Many thanks, Hallmark
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Anybody know what resource familysearch was quoting from with those Geraghty names?
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An update on Basil Sandys and family.
Some baptisms to Basil and Catherine Devaney, have been added to the Catholic collection on Findmypast.
I will list them all.
Edwin born 12th May and baptised 10th June 1827 - St Patrick, Westminster.
Margaret born 14th October and baptised 25th October 1829 - St Patrick Westminster
Maria Anna born 2nd December 1831 and baptised 1st January 1832 - St Mary and St Michael Stepney
Basil born 23rd February and baptised 23rd March 1834 - St Mary and St Michael Stepney
Thomas born 2nd April and baptised 10th April 1836 - St George Southwark
I think we can be fairly confident that these children are five of the six, mentioned in the newspaper report, of when Basil beat his daughter.
There are also three other baptisms
Basil and Catherine(Otter)
Sarah, my g.grandmother in 1856
Julia, in 1862
both in St Patrick Westminster
Basil and Catherine Geraghty
James in 1846 at St Mary, Moorfields Westminster
Unfortunately nothing for Eliza Aldwell Sandys.
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Sue - that's "Sue"per! :) :)
More details to add to the tree (I didn't have Thomas 1836).
One day a birth/baptism for Eliza Aldwell SANDYS c1841 will turn up.......perhaps!
Philip
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This is a longshot. A possible sighting of Maria Anna born 1831. This is dated 1854 in Louisiana. Basil junior died in Louisiana, so she may have been there too.
A later report says she was found not guilty.
Yes Thomas is a surprise one, but can't find any more info on him.
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What a marvellous find!
"a young lady who affects loose dress and manners, yet sometimes gets extremely tight" - sounds like a 19th century 'wild child'?
I'm definitely claiming her as my ancestor. ;D ;D ;D
Philip
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My 4th GG was John Percy Sandys Esq and he died 1820 Cloonarragh, Roscommon. His daughter Elizabeth married in 1823 in Castlerea. Wonder if they are related.
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Greetings, Jules123, and a warm welcome to Rootschat. It's always fun to find a new cousin.
Your SANDYS ancestors include Edwin SANDYS, Archbishop of York (d1588), co-author of the "Bishops' Bible" of 1568 and Sir Edwin SANDYS MP (1561-1629), treasurer of the Virginia Company - a key figure in the settlement of America and an irritant to King James.
My Basil SANDYS was the son of my 4xgreat-grandfather Edwin George SANDYS (b1764) who was the brother of your John Percy SANDYS. Their parents were Nehemiah SANDYS and Elizabeth RYVES.
I don't want to spoil your fun in researching this extraordinary line, but I have much information so do contact me if I can help.
All the best
Philip
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Wow wow wow. I knew none of this. I was about to go to bed and am now like a child in a candy shop with all this. Please please feel free to spoil my researching fun at any time with info :-). I'm on Ancestry Jules2021 and wonder if we have shared DNA.
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Wow wow wow. I knew none of this. I was about to go to bed and am now like a child in a candy shop with all this. Please please feel free to spoil my researching fun at any time with info :-). I'm on Ancestry Jules2021 and wonder if we have shared DNA.
Now communicating by pm and e-mail.
Yay, a hitherto unknown cousin - ain't life grand! :D :D :D
Philip
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Not much in Roscommon/Leitrim newspapers for Sandys
Newspaper Subject: SAINTJOHN JOHN WOOD ISLAND BALLINAMORE COUNTY LEITRIM
Newspaper: Roscommon & Leitrim Gazette
Newspaper Content: Signed notice to tenants of Mrs. Elizabeth Sandys Saint Johns lands at Cloonara and Killbride Rent due to be paid.
Date: 22 March 1823
In order to source this newspaper article, please supply all of the information below in an email to localstudies'at'leitrimcoco.ie
Hi, Elizabeth Sandys is my 3rd GG. She is the daughter of John Percy Sandys and Grandaughter of Nehemiah Sandys. She married John St John in Castlerea, Roscommon 09.01.1823. They Lived in Woodisland, Leitrim.