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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: Jonosue on Tuesday 16 January 18 17:30 GMT (UK)
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Hello,
I have just downloaded the Testament Dative of my ancestor Andrew Ramsay. it is dated 1714, and although I have managed to decipher quite a lot of it, the three words I have circled elude me completely. They turn up several times, so I think I need to know. Can anyone help me, please?
Many thanks.
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I think the second one is umquhile which means former or previous or relating to a person now dead ( which may be the meaning in this context).
Isobel
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The first one looks very like adobted. Depending on the context this could be a variant of adopted or adoubted (which an unreliable online glossary suggests might mean accounted, settled, paid, repaid)
Philip
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I think the second one is umquhile which means former or previous or relating to a person now dead ( which may be the meaning in this context).
Isobel
Somewhere in the murkiest recesses of my memory lurks a link between erstwhile and umqwhile (but I can't remember where from!) so I'd go with umquhile if the context fits.
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adebted
umqll = umquhile = late, as in deceased
Jajviic & One thousand seven hundred and Jaj = is a form of M = 1,000 vii c = 700 The month and the rest of the year are left blank as they didn't have that information at the time.
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THank you very much. i think your translations will fit into the context. I would never have deciphered the third word - your explanation has enlightened me, I (hope!) about several other obscure bits further on.
My problems are exacerbated by the fact that it looks as though there are two Andrew Ramsays, father (dead) and son (executor). And there is a mention of a John Law of Lauriston - not sure at the moment whether he was creditor or debtor. I looked him up: he was a Scottish banker who was responsible for first central bank in France - and also for the 'Mississippi Bubble, which was the French equivalent of the Southsea Bubble. I am hoping Andrew Ramsay did not lose a lot of money by investing in his bank!
Sue
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This is a great site for all those strange particularly Scottish words you come across in wills and sasines.
http://www.dsl.ac.uk/
Dictionary of the Scottish Language - website hosted by the University of Glasgow.
Very helpful.
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Hi again,
Thanksto your help I have managed to decipher the majority of the testament, but I ham still having trouble with the numbers. May I ask for a bit more help with the figures in the photos, please?
It seems that john law had lent Andrew Ramsay Sr £60,000 Scots money, which seems a huge amount. I am glad I didn't inherit that debt! One wonders what he had been planning to do with it.
Sue
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Liiij Lb = £54
xij Lb = £12
1 Lb x s = £1 10/-
Remember that the pound Scots was worth 1/8d Sterling at that time, so £60,000 Scots = £5,000 Sterling.
The pound Scots was abolished in 1707, but throughout the 18th century it continued to be used in accounting here.
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;) Even with your help, that took a bit of solving! I now am faced with another problem: I cannot decipher the place name in this marriage entry for 1712. McGill of ?ummgay phisitian, it looks like, but I have gone through entire lists of Scottish place names and can find nothing that resembles it. This marriage took place in Edinburgh, but the couple's children were born in Fife (Abbotshall).
Any suggestions gratefully received!
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It looks like Rummgay and I think the next word is his occupation, i.e. physician i.e. doctor.
Can you post the full extract please, rather than just the middle portion of it?
G F Black's The Surnames of Scotland says that the surname Rumgay is from Rumgay or Rumgally in Fife.
Scotland's Places has a record, in the Land Tax Rolls 1645-1831, Fife, Vol 5, of Rumgay in the parish of Kemback. I think this is the place named as Rumgally on modern maps.
See http://www.geograph.org.uk/browse.php?p=642954
It's shown as Ramgally on the first edition of the six-inch Ordnance Survey map. See
http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=15&lat=56.3289&lon=-2.9554&layers=5&b=1 - it's just above the gap between the E and M of Kemback.
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Rummgay = Rumgay is correct.
Note that he is described as "of Rummgay". That means he owned the property and you might find out more genealogical information in the Register of Sasines. There are references to this person in the online index to the National Records of Scotland.
Many people on Rootschat mention that a person is "of" such and such a place, when they just mean they lived there. In Scottish documents "of" means ownership, "in" usually means tenancy, and "at" means a more temporary arrangement.
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Here is the full entry as requested. I have found your replies really interesting; i didn't know about the distinction between 'of,' 'in' and 'at.' in this case, it really does say 'of.' The map website is fascinating, and I shall enjoy looking at that in greater detail. I had decided myself that John was a physician. My tutorials in reading old writing are obviously beginning to pay off.
This site is amazing; I never fail to learn something new about how and where to research when I post a query. Thank you.
Sue
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i didn't know about the distinction between 'of,' 'in' and 'at.' in this case, it really does say 'of.'
Just a wee word of caution: it is only significant if it is in an original document.
FamilySearch has in its assorted online indexes a lot of people which it describes as 'Of xxxx'. In most cases their indexer, presumably unaware of the distinction in Scotland, has assumed that because someone lived in a particular place at a particular time, they were 'Of' that place.