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General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: PurpleOwl333 on Wednesday 17 January 18 10:34 GMT (UK)
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Good morning all,
Would anyone please be willing to help me read and understand my great-grandfather's WW1 record? I have a folder with the images here: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1sgcur9rzd9AIICrZ70IUIyvmIPoREEXK (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1sgcur9rzd9AIICrZ70IUIyvmIPoREEXK)
I'm particularly interested in deciphering his mother's name on the next of kin portion and when/where he served - France if I'm reading it right?
Thanks very much in advance for any help. :)
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Morning and welcome.
I read his mother's name as Mrs Anne Butcher of 14 (?) Woodfield Crescent Westbourne Park.
He served in France in two spells 31 Aug 1916 to 7 Feb 1917 and 18 Oct 1917 to 13 Jun 1919 . In between he was sick in UK and deserted spending 2 months in military prison.
A more coherent sequence of all the events in his service will take a little time, would you like that done?
MaxD
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Thank you MaxD,
I read his mother's name that way also but am unable to find a wedding between any Butcher and his father William New. Yes, 14 Woodfield Crescent, he was on the electoral roll there after leaving the Army so that ties in nicely, thanks.
I would love a more coherent sequence of events. Having no knowledge of WW1 until now it's challenging for me to work out a timeline of events.
Thanks again :)
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OK on the case.
Marriage of Annie Luisa New to Henry Thomas Butcher Newbury Sep 1903 - is that a possible??
MaxD
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Marriage of Annie Luisa New to Henry Thomas Butcher Newbury Sep 1903 - is that a possible??
MaxD
This would fit with:
marriage: Jun qtr 1885 Newbury vol 2c p248 - Peter NEW and Annie Louisa TEAL
birth: Jun qtr 1894 Newbury vol 2c p229 - Leonard James NEW mmn TEAL
death: Dec qtr 1901 Newbury vol 2c p151 - Peter NEW age 39
Philip
ps - a warm welcome to Rootschat from me as well.
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OK on the case.
Marriage of Annie Luisa New to Henry Thomas Butcher Newbury Sep 1903 - is that a possible??
MaxD
Thanks so much MaxD. I think it'll need to be the other way round as the marriage cert states father's name as William New, unless Leonard kept his mother's surname, is that usual?
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Marriage of Annie Luisa New to Henry Thomas Butcher Newbury Sep 1903 - is that a possible??
MaxD
This would fit with:
marriage: Jun qtr 1885 Newbury vol 2c p248 - Peter NEW and Annie Louisa TEAL
birth: Jun qtr 1894 Newbury vol 2c p229 - Leonard James NEW mmn TEAL
death: Dec qtr 1901 Newbury vol 2c p151 - Peter NEW age 39
Philip
ps - a warm welcome to Rootschat from me as well.
Thank you for your warm welcome Philip and the info you provided. Leonard's put his mother on his Army docs with the surname Butcher and his father on the marriage cert in 1921 as William, and Annie Butcher is showing up on the electoral roll at the address on the Army docs, so I don't think that fits with the Peter or the maiden name of Teal, thanks though :)
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I wouldn't discount Philip's info just yet in spite of the name anomalies.
He attested into the 9th. Mddx. Regt. which is about 6 mls. away from Harrow where the Leonard New Philip found was living.
Had a quick look & Peter New died in 1901 Newbury & Annie Louisa New went on to marry Henry Thomas Butcher in 1903.
In 1911 Annie is living in Paddington with daughter Lilian Butcher whose birth is registered with mmn Teal.
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Quite right.
Gertrude Annie NEW (daughter of Peter NEW) marries Horace John WINGER March 1921 Paddington.
They both give their address as 14 Woodfield Crescent.
One of the witnesses is LJ NEW.
Maureen
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Just noticed in 1901 3 doors from Peter & Annie New lives a William Butcher.
This William Butcher had a brother Henry Thomas.
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Bit of a problem. There are two marriages for a Leonard James NEW.
One is in Walworth 1913 to a Bessie HARDING. This is the one with father William.
The other is in Paddington 1920 to a CLARKE. This one has the Woodfield Crescent addy and father's name Peter.(Peke on A*try). Obviously the chap from the service records.
So......
Maureen
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Well done Maureen. Makes sense now.
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A summary of LJ's record is attached. I haven't given chapter and verse of all the disciplinary occurrences, suffice to say he wasn't the best behaved soldier! Do ask though if you need any particular bit expanded upon.
I'd go along with friends on his background, won't bore you with my similar thoughts!
MaxD
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Well done from me too Maureen, hadn't got that vital bit!
MaxD
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Although different father's names it's possible they are one in the same.
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:o Wow, my mind is officially blown!
Firstly, MaxD, I really appreciate all the time and energy you put into doing the Army record, thank you so much! I read on the Service and Casualty form what look liked 'disembodied on demobilization' does that mean he lost a limb or something?
I have no idea how on earth you guys 'n' gal come up with all this information so fast, blimey!
As a complete newbie to family histories and trees I have to say I thought I was doing well when I matched the signature on the war record to the one on the marriage cert to try and nail down a date of birth and confirm it was the right person :D but now I see doing an accurate family tree takes a certain way of thinking outside the box to know where to look for info and put the pieces together.
Hopefully you won''t mind if I ask a few questions so I can understand how you got what you did:
How was LJ's mum Annie's maiden name discovered? It's not on the Civil Registration Birth Index and there wasn't a maiden name on FreeBMD.
I'm confused as to why he gave two different names for his father, any clarity would be great, thanks :)
His first wife remarried in 1921 and on her marriage cert it states she's a widow...!
There's just so much conflicting information it seems, from DOB's to father's names, I found SIX different years of birth for his first wife from Censuses, marriage certs, school admissions, Workhouse admissions etc. How can I be certain I'm putting the correct one on the tree?
Just seen your post jim1, how is it possible they're the same person?
I'm thinking I probably should post this in another place on the forum, hopefully a Mod will move this bit of our conversation if necessary.
Thanks again to all of you. Now all I need to do is get my head around it all ;D
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I'll answer the easy one - in the military context "disembodied" means that he is out of the service, discharged from military service.
More broadly, you have seen how conflicting information can be - always need to check and cross check.
Good luck.
MaxD
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Ahh ok, thanks for that. Yep, triple check it twice ;D
I'll answer the easy one - in the military context "disembodied" means that he is out of the service, discharged from military service.
More broadly, you have seen how conflicting information can be - always need to check and cross check.
Good luck.
MaxD
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How was LJ's mum Annie's maiden name discovered? It's not on the Civil Registration Birth Index and there wasn't a maiden name on FreeBMD.
FreeBMD is excellent for finding BMD possibles within a range of years. If you know the name and approximate year of birth the General Register Office can give you the mother's maiden name. You need to register, but the site is free to search (and certificates are cheaper than some rival sites!) With the maiden name you can search for siblings on GRO and a marriage on FreeBMD.
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/Login.asp
The GRO will also give ages for deaths - very useful!
Philip
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That's gold Philip, thank you very much! :)
How was LJ's mum Annie's maiden name discovered? It's not on the Civil Registration Birth Index and there wasn't a maiden name on FreeBMD.
FreeBMD is excellent for finding BMD possibles within a range of years. If you know the name and approximate year of birth the General Register Office can give you the mother's maiden name. You need to register, but the site is free to search (and certificates are cheaper than some rival sites!) With the maiden name you can search for siblings on GRO and a marriage on FreeBMD.
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/Login.asp
The GRO will also give ages for deaths - very useful!
Philip
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Just looking at the signatures for the 2 marriages of Leonard James NEW. They look very similar and he's a porter on both. :-\
Bessie Caroline HARDING was born March 15 1893 according to her school record. Doing a free search on the 1939 register (FMPast)-she's listed as Bessie C AYLING in Croydon. I played around with the birth month/day and came up with March 16 1893. If you're not too bothered by just putting March 1893 on your tree I guess that would do. :) Otherwise the birth cert would be the way to go.
Good luck! (and I forgot to say "welcome to RootsChat!").
Maureen
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Thanks for the welcome and info Maureen, what a friendly bunch you all are ;D
Ah yes, Bessie, I've spent many an hour with my great-grandmother of late. She was a Bill Gummer at 18 (whatever the heck that is!) Thanks to Philip's link earlier I've indulged in getting her birth cert as a PDF so soon that particular mystery will be solved. After stalking, er I mean researching her pretty thoroughly, now all I need to find are photos! ;D There are very strong traits which came from my grandmother through my mother to me and my eldest daughter, both physical and personality-wise so I'm pretty sure she'd of been similar.
Bye for now,
Laura
Just looking at the signatures for the 2 marriages of Leonard James NEW. They look very similar and he's a porter on both. :-\
Bessie Caroline HARDING was born March 15 1893 according to her school record. Doing a free search on the 1939 register (FMPast)-she's listed as Bessie C AYLING in Croydon. I played around with the birth month/day and came up with March 16 1893. If you're not too bothered by just putting March 1893 on your tree I guess that would do. :) Otherwise the birth cert would be the way to go.
Good luck! (and I forgot to say "welcome to RootsChat!").
Maureen
Maureen
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A first reaction was to say that a Bill Gummer was the same as a Bill Sticker, someone who posts notices and placards about the place (a sort of early Facebook). (Always being harassed by the authorities - Bill Stickers will be prosecuted).
However, in the next column on the census is the employers business. The second word is Manufacturer but I have no guess for the first and this may hold a clue. You may find that perhaps someone here could come up with a sensible idea, or a post on the Handwriting and Deciphering board asking folk to look at the 1911 Camberwell for Bessie C Harding born 1893 may produce an answer.
MaxD
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Re: PurpleOwl333 "His first wife remarried in 1921 and on her marriage cert it states she's a widow...!"
I came across a similar thing in my tree; found g-father as "widower" on marriage cert to g-mother in 1920. Also found g-father had married some 20 years earlier and found details of 2nd marriage, also in 1920, for his first wife!
One reason I've come across for these types of marriages is because official divorce was quite expensive for your average person, and difficult.
T
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A first reaction was to say that a Bill Gummer was the same as a Bill Sticker, someone who posts notices and placards about the place (a sort of early Facebook). (Always being harassed by the authorities - Bill Stickers will be prosecuted).
However, in the next column on the census is the employers business. The second word is Manufacturer but I have no guess for the first and this may hold a clue. You may find that perhaps someone here could come up with a sensible idea, or a post on the Handwriting and Deciphering board asking folk to look at the 1911 Camberwell for Bessie C Harding born 1893 may produce an answer.
MaxD
:) :) She's the only "bill gummer" on the entire 1911 census.
I think the missing word might be "scent"?
Maureen
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Maybe she put the labels on the boxes.
She would have used a glue brush to paste the boxes & then stuck on the labels.
A dept. I worked in had women doing exactly that.
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I came across an interesting site http://www.worldthroughthelens.com/family-history/old-occupations.php (http://www.worldthroughthelens.com/family-history/old-occupations.php)which lists the old occupations from the 1911 census and bill sticker was the closest I could find. I couldn't read the next columns and didn't realise 'til now that there's a Handwriting and Deciphering board here :) I'll be using that in the future no doubt, thanks.
A first reaction was to say that a Bill Gummer was the same as a Bill Sticker, someone who posts notices and placards about the place (a sort of early Facebook). (Always being harassed by the authorities - Bill Stickers will be prosecuted).
However, in the next column on the census is the employers business. The second word is Manufacturer but I have no guess for the first and this may hold a clue. You may find that perhaps someone here could come up with a sensible idea, or a post on the Handwriting and Deciphering board asking folk to look at the 1911 Camberwell for Bessie C Harding born 1893 may produce an answer.
MaxD
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Hi, thanks for your reply.
I saw an ad on here for a talk entitled Divorced, Bigamist, Bereavement by Prof. Rebecca Probert, googled her and popped her an email and she replied
There was a defence to bigamy if the spouse who remarried had not heard of or from the other spouse for 7 years and had no reason to believe that they were alive.
At this point in time (1921) the only ground for divorce is adultery and a wife has in addition to prove cruelty, desertion or similar aggravating factors. Separation by itself wasn’t a ground until 1939!
There is no special treatment of soldiers or their wives, although the war did of course make it more plausible to assume the death of a spouse.
Re: PurpleOwl333 "His first wife remarried in 1921 and on her marriage cert it states she's a widow...!"
I came across a similar thing in my tree; found g-father as "widower" on marriage cert to g-mother in 1920. Also found g-father had married some 20 years earlier and found details of 2nd marriage, also in 1920, for his first wife!
One reason I've come across for these types of marriages is because official divorce was quite expensive for your average person, and difficult.
T
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I think you may well be right Maureen ;D
Can the 1911 census be searched by occupation then? If so, that's really handy. How do I do that please?
:) :) She's the only "bill gummer" on the entire 1911 census.
I think the missing word might be "scent"?
Maureen
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Interesting! Could well be that's what she did. Thanks :)
Maybe she put the labels on the boxes.
She would have used a glue brush to paste the boxes & then stuck on the labels.
A dept. I worked in had women doing exactly that.
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I think you may well be right Maureen ;D
Can the 1911 census be searched by occupation then? If so, that's really handy. How do I do that please?
:) :) She's the only "bill gummer" on the entire 1911 census.
I think the missing word might be "scent"?
Maureen
Hi Laura,
Both the 1911 A*try and FMPast have an occupation blank that you can fill in.
I noticed that Bessie's occupation code was 787. Going by:
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/content/expert-1911-occupation-codes
that comes up with:787 Manufacturing Chemists (this also seems to be the occ. code for other women working as scent packers,etc.)
I'm sure jim is correct with his description of her job. :)
Maureen
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Couple of very useful tips there Maureen - thanks.
(The neighbours thought she was a bit stuck up but she smelled nice ;))
MaxD
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Not sure she smelled that good Max considering glue was made from dead 'orses.
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Couple of very useful tips there Maureen - thanks.
(The neighbours thought she was a bit stuck up but she smelled nice ;))
MaxD
;D ;D ;D
And stop talking scents,jim. ;)
Maureen
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Yes, very useful tips Maureen, thank you!
Glue was made from dead 'orses ... :o now that I didn't wanna know but thanks anyway jim! ;D
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Birth Cert confirms you were spot on Maureen! ;D
I played around with the birth month/day and came up with March 16 1893.