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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: sophia1422 on Wednesday 17 January 18 23:30 GMT (UK)
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I am hoping for some advice on how best to proceed in the search for the name of my grandmother's birth parents. We have no formal documentation and all information was told to my grandmother by her adoptive parents (William and Fanny Taylor of Barton Upon Humber), as well as snippets told by family friends.
My grandmother, Elsie Eva, was born 29 November 1911 (as far as she was aware - we have no birth certificate). We understand that her father was a doctor from Hull (Hessle) and her mother a nurse (believed to be French). It was said that they both died in a shipping accident and as the adoption was understood to have taken place when she was around 3-6 months old, we have assumed for many years that they were onboard the Titanic. However, I can find no information about them in the passenger lists. There were no other relevant shipping incidents.
Even if all the above is unfounded, I figured that the birth must have been registered. But I can't find any trace of an Elsie Eva being born in Hull either during qtr4 1911 or qtr1 1912.
I have also looked at the 1939 register which lists her dob as 11 October 1912 which just confuses me entirely!
Does anyone have any tips or ideas to shine any light on this? I am aware that there were no formal adoption records before 1926 but could there possibly be anything else held by any institutions?
I have also considered the possibility that the Hull connection could just be an elaborate story, and that the reasons for her adoption were much closer to home, so any further advice on this would be gratefully received!
Many thanks
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Hi and welcome to Rootschat
Elsie Eva may not have been the name her birth was registered under - it may be the name she was given by whoever "adopted" her
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Hi and welcome to RootsChat...I am sure this story if true, would have been reported in the newspapers but I can't find a report of this type of incident for that period in either the Hull or Lincolnshire newspapers :-\
I fear the story may have been covering up an indiscretion...shame she wasn't born before the 1911 census as that may have given you a lead.
Carol
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Welcome to Rootchat.
I think your biggest problem is that, as Carole said, her name is very likely to have been changed when she was adopted, so she could well have been registered under an entirely different name.
Although the Titanic is an obvious disaster of the time, it seems odd that her parents would have travelled leaving her behind.
You also have the alternate date of birth from the 1939 register - who gave that?
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Have you looked at the marriage of Samuel John Eva to Elsie Roberts, June 1910 Helston, Cornwall, and the birth of Elsie V. Eva, June 1912, Falmouth, Cornwall ?
There is also a birth of an Elsie Eva, September 1914 in Blackburn to a Gertrude Green and a Joseph Eva who were married September 1908 in Leigh.
Obviously, both of the above were born post Titanic sinking.
Malky
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Elsie V Eva married Marshall I Elliott in Falmouth in 1937
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Why do you think that Elsie was adopted at 3-6 months?
In 1911 William and Fanny TAYLOR were newly married with no children. They are still in Barton upon Humber in 1939 and there are no children showing for them in the intervening years. Can you confirm that Fanny's maiden surname was SMITH?
It seems more likely that Elsie was taken in after a longer passage of time when the couple were unsuccessful with having their own children. Do you know if they had other children?
Debra :)
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Welcome from me too.
So she died in 1999 (Hereford) as Elsie Eva Evans with DOB recorded as 29 Nov 1911, but in 1939 with her adoptive parents her birthdate was recorded as 11 Oct 1912.
No wonder you are confused ???
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We need something confirming! I presumed that Eva was a middle name and not a surname as she is recorded in 1939 as Elsie E Taylor. In which case the marriages and parents given early are not her.
I wonder if the date of birth given in 1939 is the date the Taylors “adopted” her and changed her name?
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Hello all, many thanks for all your replies, I will do my best to answer them!
Carole it has crossed my mind that her name may have been changed, but I need to exhaust all possibilities with her known name first. Good point about the newspapers, I hadn't thought of that.
groom - yes just to confirm Eva was her middle name. We had always understood that her parents were leaving to start a new life abroad and once settled they were going to return for the baby. I do realise that it seems an incredibly young age to leave a baby without her mother although have never really questioned it until now.
The 1939 dob was given by her adoptive father William Taylor. It does seem plausible that it could be an adoption date instead and would explain having two dob's, although I still don't understand why he would use it on the 1939register.
dundee - 3 - 6 mths was what she had always been lead to believe by the Taylors. Yes, Fanny's maiden name was Smith. No further children during the marriage. I have always thought the timing slightly odd, as they were supposedly married for less than 18 months before adopting. It definitely sounds more plausible to have adopted several years later.
avm228 - that's correct - as for confused... :o!!
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Eva could still have been her birth name, but just using it as a middle name after adoption, so her name had a link to her origins. How many double barrel names do we still see, and in the BMD records, how many do we see where the original middle name has been dropped with the original surname being put in it's place.
Malky
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If I have the right family in 1901 census...it's possible that Elsie could have been the illegitimate daughter of one of her sisters: Ethel b. 1892, Margaret 1894, or Gertrude 1895. I have also looked at Eva Elsie b. Hull but didn't find a match :-\
It looks like there is no paper trail for her due to lack of accurate details.
Carol
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.......3 - 6 mths was what she had always been lead to believe by the Taylors.
Then I would be looking close to home for her mother. Perhaps it was just a coincidence that the TAYLORs did not have children of their own.
Debra :)
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Looking at the possibility that "a French nurse" was involved as well as a doctor from Hessle, this 1911 entry intrigues me:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X7TS-TSP
Ann Josephine Keightley, a domestic servant in the house of a "Murray" family (possibly related to William Murray, a doctor in Hessle with Scottish origins). She was born Paris, single, and of child-bearing age.
Now here it gets interesting! I looked for possible illegitimate births to Keightley - none in Hull area, but in March 1912 a Ethel D Keightley (possibly originally listed as "Female" Keightley) was registered in Marylebone. There is a cross-reference saying "see D 26" - meaning the birth was amended or re-registered in 1926.
The corresponding entry in 1926 lists two names - Ethel D Keightley and Ethel D Taylor, both with mother's maiden name Keightley.
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That is an intriguing set of facts.
I wonder whether she is the Anna J Keightley whose death (aged 86) was registered Dec qtr 1951 Hull.
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Anna Josephine Keightley, spinster, of 29 Rose St, Hull, died 14 October 1951.
Probate of the £625 estate was granted at York, 27 November 1951 to John Joseph Wade, ledger clerk.
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William Murray, of Southfield House, Station Rd, Hessle died 29 November 1946. Probate of his £24,500 estate was granted at York, 26 June 1947, to Donald Murray company director and Jean Murray spinster.
A funeral report in the Daily Mail, 3 December 1946, shows that this was Dr William Murray, aged 77. He had lived in Hessle for 50 years, and retired in 1937. (It looks as though his wife Barbara Maud died in 1938).
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Looking at the possibility that "a French nurse" was involved as well as a doctor from Hessle, this 1911 entry intrigues me:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X7TS-TSP
Ann Josephine Keightley, a domestic servant in the house of a "Murray" family (possibly related to William Murray, a doctor in Hessle with Scottish origins). She was born Paris, single, and of child-bearing age.
Now here it gets interesting! I looked for possible illegitimate births to Keightley - none in Hull area, but in March 1912 a Ethel D Keightley (possibly originally listed as "Female" Keightley) was registered in Marylebone. There is a cross-reference saying "see D 26" - meaning the birth was amended or re-registered in 1926.
The corresponding entry in 1926 lists two names - Ethel D Keightley and Ethel D Taylor, both with mother's maiden name Keightley.
Wow that's fascinating, thank you so much jorose! I will definitely have a further look into this :)
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William Murray, of Southfield House, Station Rd, Hessle died 29 November 1946. Probate of his £24,500 estate was granted at York, 26 June 1947, to Donald Murray company director and Jean Murray spinster.
Appear to be nephew & niece . Actually son & daughter - names from funeral notice. They are marked as son & daughter on 1911 although William is not present - perhaps out on his rounds!! Sister Maud marked first on list but not head of household.
I think a £6 punt on the birth certificate jorose found would be well worth it, probably won't name father though...
ADDED: Won't prove jorose's theory either but will add fuel to fire if mother is Anna Josephine.
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Josey I think as you say that they are correctly marked as son and daughter (relationships being to the head of household, even if he is absent).
I definitely agree that the birth certificate is worth a punt. The indexing in two surnames may mean that a father is named as well as the mother.
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The 1926 re-registration may have details of her adoptive family (seeing as it appears to be listed as "Taylor") or give some confirmation via birthdate, but as you say it's unlikely we'll get any firm confirmation of the father.
Keightley children can be found in the civil bdms of Paris:
http://archives.paris.fr/r/124/-at-civil-de-paris/
6 July 1886 - Anna Josephine (8e)
Act 999 - birth of Anna Josephine Keightley, born the 5th July (registered on the 6th), daughter of Joseph Keightley, 28, cocher (coachman?), and Anne Marie Leroyer, aged 31, domestic servant (married).
9 June 1889 - Marguerite (8e)
act 1063 - same details, only Joseph is now 30, his wife is 34, and her father's nationality is specified as English.
(there may be more I haven't spotted)
11 Feb 1886, 8e, the marriage:
Joseph Keightley, born Myton (Great Britain), 27 January 1859, coachman resident of Paris Rue de Marignan, 18, son of Joseph Keightly and Harriet Cushing, his wife
to
Anne Marie Leroyer, born Saint-Jean-sur-Mayenne (Mayenne), 16th October 1854, a maid resident of Paris, Rue de Messine, 9, daughter of Michel Pierre Leroyer, deceased, and Anne Foucault, his widow, aged 56, no occupation, resident Change (Mayenne) and consenting to the marriage.
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I did wonder whether the re-registration and its timing might have had something to do with the fact that legal adoption was about to be introduced (with effect from 1 Jan 1927), but it's hard to see how a prospective adoptive parent's name would appear on a birth registration unless said parent was claiming (truthfully or not) to be the child's natural parent ???
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The Keightley re-registration in 1926 appears to be to add an unmarried father to an entry (where he wasn't named on the original) - that means he would have to be present at the re-registration to confirm he was the father and to sign as a joint informant.
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thank you all so much for your help. I have ordered the birth certificate so will let you know once i receive it :)
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*UPDATE (better late than never :-[)*
I finally have a birth name for my grandmother! It turns out she is in fact EVA ELSIE ROYCROFT, born November 29th 1912 in Hull. We were looking at the family tree in an old family bible (started by the Taylors) and noticed that her name and birth date had been changed - we could just make out the original name/date! I have received her birth certificate today - unmarried mother (Maud Roycroft) of 8 Beech Grove, Princes Road, Hull.
I am sure I will need some help at a later date as having had a quick look at freebmd there are no obvious birth/marriage details for Maud, but I will save those questions for when I have more time :)
*The Keighley birth certificate names the father (as AntonyMMM suggested) and mother is Eliza, so no link to Anna Josephine but thank you for your suggestions.*
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Thats great news
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I notice that the birth is actually registered in Sculcoates, Yorkshire. Was the Hull address given as the mother’s usual address?
A Maud Roycroft age 25 appears in shipping lists for the Campania sailing for New York in May 1913.
Isobel
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I notice that the birth is actually registered in Sculcoates, Yorkshire. Was the Hull address given as the mother’s usual address?
A Maud Roycroft age 25 appears in shipping lists for the Campania sailing for New York in May 1913.
Isobel
On the image it looks more like 35. She is a teacher.
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I agree and the Arrival info in New York says 35. She appears to have been born in Ireland.
Isobel
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Next of kin is her father - address looks like 15 and a half North Brook Rd , Dublin
Isobel
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Possible birth in Dublin 1878
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Princes Road runs pretty much from Sculcoates to Hull (they are really close and the road is a mile long) so it may be called Princes Road Hull but be in the Sculcoates registration district (the church on that road is meant to be in Sculcoates, yet its counted as being in Hull)
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Possible in 1901
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai003757198/
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1911 Irish Census has a Maud Roycraft aged 25 (?) who is an 'Assistant' at what appears to be an orphanage or school. Don't know to view original census page to see if surname mistranscribed.
Single and a Methodist.
Annette
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Looking at the 1911 census found by Annette the surname could be Roycroft, however age is 25. Surely more than a coincidence however that the address is Northbrook Rd, Dublin which is the same as the address for her next of kin, Mr Edward R Roycroft, in the New York arrival in 1913.
Isobel
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Edward Roycroft’s death in Dublin in 1922 gives his address as 13A Northbrook Rd. ( down as Raycroft in the irishgenealogy.ie index).
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Maud not too good at stating correct age!
In 1920 US Census she is a nurse to a private family (surnamed Hannah) in New Trier, Cook, Illinois listed as Maud E Roycroft aged 36! (She was 35 when she arrived in 1913!!).
The surname here varies too in the various records from Roycroft/Roycraft/Raycroft.
I feel sure that this Maud (of the varying age) - a nurse whilst in the US - is indeed the mother of Eva Elsie Roycroft - she also left for the US 6 months after the birth of her daughter and was indeed a nurse. However, I haven't found her in the US after 1920 so don't know what became of her.
Annette
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Having Eva as the baby’s name could also be significant as Maud’s first name was Evangeline. I agree with Annette that this is very likely the Maud who had the baby in Hull/Sculcoates.
Isobel
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Are you going to atempted to find the birth father of Elsie Eva?
Maud may have taken him to court for a new affiliation order .
Otherwise it's a case of finding DNA matches my grandmothers legitimate half brother had a son who came out as a 2nd cousins match to my mother on Ancestry.
You could also look for Elsie.s baptism records interesting to know if Maude had her baptised before leaving for USA or if the Taylors had a baptism for her maybe that was the date given on 1939 register.
Fascinating story really pleased that you got answers and can now trace the maternal side further back in Ireland .
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Annette7 isobelw brigidmac thank you so much for all your work on this, as well as a huge apology for not replying sooner. For some reason I have had no notifications and have only found your replies today whilst browsing :-[
So we have possible Irish ancestry!I did notice that Roycroft appears to be an Irish name, but to actually have traced Maud there is very exciting! and to fit in with the 'story' we have been told albeit without a husband....
brigidmac - yes Maud did have grandma baptised before she left, on the 18th Dec 1912 at what looks to be the parish church. The date on the 1939 register still remains a mystery! I would like to try and find her father - how would I go about this?
The only other question I have is why Maud would travel to Hull from Ireland, give birth to my grandmother and then leave 6 months later?
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I am desperately searching for a death record and/or any other information post 1920 for my great-grandmother, Evangeline Maud Roycroft (b. 1878, Dublin). She emigrated to the US in May 1913 following the illegitimate birth of my grandmother in November 1912.
(The original thread where some lovely rootschatters tracked her down for me is here topics merged
In the 1920 US Census she is single, known as 'Maud E Roycroft' and is living and working with the Hannah family in New Trier, Illinois but here the trail goes cold. She is also a little forgetful about her age, so I have had to be mindful about that.
Her sister Elsie Blanche Roycroft also emigrated to the US a year or two before, but I have found Elsie's obituary in 1965 and her only known relatives were said to be nephews back in Ireland, suggesting that Maud had either died before her sister or that they were no longer in contact.
I have found the Hannah family in the 1930 US Census and they have moved away and she is not listed with them.
Can anyone help me with this?
Sophie
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Hi
Given the complexity of this family and the previous thread which ran to 5 pages - it may be best if this post was merged with that thread for continuity purposes and to prevent any possible duplication
Will refer to moderator for decision
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Any good?
https://billiongraves.com/social-security/MAUDE-ROYCROFT/71190069
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In England you look for court records sometime s called affiliation orders In area record office .
But if she came from Ireland and never returned she was probably hiding the fact that she.dhad a baby so unlikely to risk taking the father to court.
Very hard to cope as a single mother so taking a job on boat accompanying a family was a good option .