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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: lesleyhannah on Thursday 18 January 18 22:30 GMT (UK)
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Hi
Although I've been researching my family for many years - the BBC series about the house in Falkner St Liverpool has motivated me to look into the history of one of the houses I lived in - but have no idea where to begin, so any help or suggestions would be very welcome. My two youngest children were born in the 1980s off Lark Lane (now L17). I'd like to trace the owners of this house with the aim of putting together a file of the families who occupied the address - on the lines of the BBC programmes.
Specifically I'd like to know how to go about getting info if the only thing I have is the address - and is this info in the 1939 register just by the street? I'm at a bit of a loss as to how to start - unfortunately I live in the South west of England, and poor health means I can no longer travel. This \I hope will give me a project for some years so I welcome any help.
Thanks
Lesley
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The 1939 Register is a bit of a pest when searching addresses. You enter the name of the road/street whatever in the address field, then enter the place. Then in order to see any numbers you will need to look at the images.
I did this with Falkner Street, Liverpool and had to go to the images to see the numbers.
Depending on how old your house is, I would start with the census records and see what appears from those.
Once you have gone past the 1939 the next option would be electoral rolls.
Try it and see what appears.
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Lesley - I am 4 miles away - Garston ....post the address and lets see if we can find out when it was built first :)
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You can ask the Land Registry for a copy of the deeds
https://www.gov.uk/get-information-about-property-and-land/copies-of-deeds
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Depending on the age of the property, sometimes you can look at old maps of the area to narrow down a rough time frame for it's construction.
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Lesley - I am 4 miles away - Garston ....post the address and lets see if we can find out when it was built first :)
Thanks for all replies - have hospital apt this morning but will reply later. Address is 11 Pelham Grove off Lark Lane
All suggestions welcome - I've not done this before
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From directories:
1938 - no listing for 11
1914 - Servaes, Miss Helen Janet
1911 - Servaes, Miss Helen Janet
1900 - no listing for 11
1894 - Mrs Blackburn (or Blackburne per residents list)
1881 - Mrs Ockleston
1873 - street not listed
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Well no trouble finding the address on the 1939, it is there with two residents.
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from censuses:
1901 - James W Armour
1891 - unoccupied
1881 - Jane Wallworth (and daughter Elizabeth Ockleston)
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First newspaper mention of Pelham Grove is in February 1875
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Excellent work Shaun
Lesley
Helen Janet Servaes Family Tree........lucky you
thanks to Shauns info
https://gw.geneanet.org/stamboomservaes?n=servaes&oc=&p=helen+janet
ADDED - How Ironic - 1901 census on that Family Tree - is GARSTON ...what a coincidence ...lol
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G MacLeod Ross was there in 1913 https://goo.gl/mXEeyA
A mention in Spare Rib in 1980 https://goo.gl/Ey5EBK
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Death of infant Catherine Matilda Wilson in 1879 http://www.toxtethparkcemetery.co.uk/years/unconsecrated%20Section/u1879.htm
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G MacLeod Ross was there in 1913 https://goo.gl/mXEeyA
A mention in Spare Rib in 1980 https://goo.gl/Ey5EBK
G Mcleod Ross was Helen Janets Brother in laws brother - I presume
◾F Susan Frances Susie Servaes 1866-1955 Married 18 January 1893, Christ Church Sefton Park, County of Lancaster, to Arthur Macleod Ross
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the Servaes family - father Frederich Julius was a Merchant and they moved to " Holly Lee " Livingstone Drive South - as you are no doubt aware of about 200 yards away
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G Mcleod Ross was Helen Janets Brother in laws brother - I presume
It's her nephew George Macleod Ross
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Lovely houses lesleyhannah. :)
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More from my directory collection:
1955, 1958 and 1966: Ronald Victor Hugo
Mr Hugo died in 1970
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Well no trouble finding the address on the 1939, it is there with two residents.
There seem to be three separate households. Presumably the house was divided into flats by that time.
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Thanks for all your help. I've put together a skeleton timeline with the hope of eventually filling in the gaps.
I've taken out a sub with findmypast which may help.
I tried the Land Registry site suggested but I'm afraid it beat me -I couldn't work out where to get the info they wanted - maybe I'm just being dense (quite likely!)
It looks as if the property was built in between 1873 and 1881 - do others agree with this that Mrs Wallworth and daughter were possibly the first occupants?
I'd be interested to know more about the 1875 reference in a newspaper.
I'm also interested in the Spare Rib reference in 1980 as I think this may be when we bought the house (sadly ex-husband kept all the paperwork, now long destroyed, and my memory is no longer reliable).
On the BBC programme the researcher seems to have access to some sort of archive in Liverpool. Of course all these programmes make the research seem dead simple - and it never is! I wonder if there's somewhere with every owner listed?
If anyone can suggest websites/books / links etc I'd be very grateful.
Well, I'll see what I can fill in with the help of the records I am familiar with. Sometimes the best stories are the ones you don't expect!
Thanks again!
Lesley
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I wouldn't rush to do the Land Registry. I went on there with the intention of finding out the names of the previous occupants of my parents house.
I found the details, paid my money (£6) and all I had was the name of the current owner. Maybe I did something wrong, searched on the wrong bit, who knows? At least I didn't waste too much money.
Hopefully someone with more experience of using the Land Registry website will give you some pointers.
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The February 1875 newspaper item - the earliest mention of Pelham Grove that I could find - concerned the insolvency of T. Hollis.
Per the Gazette he lived at number 26 https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/24196/page/1969 (column 2, fifth item)
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Also found in the Gazette, in 1902, a reference to Elizabeth Charlotte Blackburne who had resided at number 11 https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/27414/page/1689
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I wouldn't rush to do the Land Registry
Thanks for this reply - it’s just what it seemed but I thought I must be reading the information wrongly. So you’ve saved me a load of money if I’d had to order every individual resident!
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The Gazette- good thinking. I’d forgotten about that
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Well no trouble finding the address on the 1939, it is there with two residents.
I seem to have lost my touch - how do you find the two residents in the 1939 register - the whole layout of findmypast seems to have altered since I used it . . . or I'm going doolally (most likely!)
I can see this is going to be a lot harder than I thought - and impossible without the help I've had from this forum
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Lesley what I did was use the address section on the 1939. When you get the basic search page, click on Advanced Search top right, you then click on the address button which is next to the person button.
This takes you to the address search page. You then enter the name of the road/street you are looking for, the borough/district, which in your case will be Liverpool. You need not fill in the county unless you want to or if you know the place could be in more than one county.
Press the button and see the results.
I think I said earlier that you will need to view the image to find the number that you are looking for.
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1939: When you view the page image, look above the two obvious households at 11.
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http://search.freefind.com/find.html?id=15152302&pid=r&mode=ALL&n=0&query=pelham+grove
6 newspaper reports about Pelham Grove
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Another name for you: a birth announcement in the Morning Post (a London paper) for Thursday, March 16, 1893.
Gonner: on the 5th inst at 11 Pelham Grove, Sefton Park, Liverpool, the wife of E C K Gonner, of a son
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Obituary of Sir Edward Carter Cursey Gonner https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Times/1922/Obituary/Edward_Carter_Kersey_Gonner
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Hopefully someone with more experience of using the Land Registry website will give you some pointers.
Yes, the Land Title sheet only has current owner. As far as I know, you have to pay for information on EACH earlier transfer. In Scotland this is called 'behind the Register', not sure about England. This is because the Land Register is a register of title, not of deeds [which the Scottish Register of Sasines is/was, England had no equivalent]. It should not be forgotten that occupants could be tenants rather than owners, so consecutive occupiers does not mean change of ownership.
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As often happens in genealogy - the most interesting finds happen when we least expect them.
Making slow progress with the Pelham Grove house but by chance found a reference to Haile Selassi who apparently spent WW2 in exile in the UK including some time in Lark Lane (Waverley Road I think, which is round the corner from Pelham Grove). I can't get much detail from Google but wonder if anyone else has heard this?)
This would certainly be an exciting development!!
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The Gonner connection very interesting. When we lived in the street most houses were divided into flats. Shows it was once an affluent street. Beginning to remind me of the ups and downs of thr bbc programme. Getting quite excited!
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do others agree with this that Mrs Wallworth and daughter were possibly the first occupants?
From the evidence of the Toxteth Park cemetery transcription, the Wilson family was there in 1879. Following the evidence of Catherine Matilda's mother's maiden name (Shearer) this would appear to be Joseph and his wife Catherine Campbell Wilson. Joseph was a miller and corn merchant. Wife Catherine died in 1883.
However in the 1881 census they are at 10 Pelham Grove, so either they had moved across the road or the burial transcription is incorrect.
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It wasn’t unusual for families to move across the road - my family in Yorkshire did that (maybe same landlord?). Would the land registry be able to tell me who were first residents or do I need more info before getting records?
Anecdotes about Haile Selassi are numerous but I can’t find any proof he stayed in Pelham grove
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I wonder if there's a connection with the French Victor Hugo - now that would be an exciting find for my old house
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Sean
Which was the directory you got the Hugo information from? I'm not sure where to find these directories. Thank you for your help - I am having some problems - well out of my comfort zone so all your help is appreciated
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Which was the directory you got the Hugo information from?
That was from my personal collection of Kelly's directories of Liverpool.
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Ronald Victor Hugo's father was born Edward Ronald Hugoe in Plymouth (Stoke Damerel) in 1881.
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Shaun, if I get any information about this family I will pass it on to you. Is this your family? I am grateful for your help. A relative believes the date the house was built is on a plaque outside. He hopes to go and photograph it soon, so I can pass that on to this thread
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No I have no connection with the house or any of the families mentioned (as far as I know).
The plaque outside (above numbers 7 and 9) says 1874
https://goo.gl/yEcEEd
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That's very helpful - thanks again
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I see you've had lots of really great help.
However, I saw this earlier today and it looks like it could be useful to you:
https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/tv/how-find-secret-history-your-14212385
Good luck!
CD
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Thanks, Ive printed this off and will read it tomorrow
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I now have the birth certificate of Edward Dermot Ledlie Gonner born 1893 in 'our house' in 11 Pelham Grove. I'd like to know when the family moved out and where to? His parents were Edward Carter Gonner and Annie Ledlie. The next daughter (I think) Eileen was born 1896 on the Wirral. Any extra info will help to build up a picture of the family
Thanks]
lesley
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The Gonner family had moved to West Kirby by 1896. Address 13 Kirby Park per Kelly's Directory.
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Thanks Shsun; I noticed the next child was born on the Wirral - quite a social jump from 'our house' and wonder if I could pinpoint a more definite year or even an explanation as to the move. Ideally I would like to fill in as many blanks as possible. Where can I find electoral rolls or trade directories (would be happy to buy the directories if I could find any relevant to Lark Lane). As you can see I'm way out of my comfort zone!
Lesley
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Many Liverpool directories are viewable online on Familysearch
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/241645?availability=Family%20History%20Library
You can also search and download from the Leicester University collection
http://specialcollections.le.ac.uk/cdm/
You could also try posting on the Liverpool Genealogy forum (Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS)
https://www.liverpool-genealogy.org.uk/phpBB3/viewforum.php?f=2
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I noticed the next child was born on the Wirral - quite a social jump from 'our house' and wonder if I could pinpoint a more definite year or even an explanation as to the move.
Professor Gonner was a prominent academic by then. The Wirral had been opened up to commuters when the Mersey railway tunnel was opened in 1886. There was then a rapid growth of suburbs such as Wallasey, Hoylake and West Kirby. The attractions of cleaner air and better quality of life in West Kirby, away from the soot, crime and slums of Liverpool, must have been considerable.
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Thanks for the help Shaun. It would seem that the Gonners were the most important residents in our house, so I will try to find out about their family. Although Edward Dermot Ledlie Gonner's birth cert in 1893 gives our house as his place of birth and the birth was reported by his professor father at the same address I will try to find out when the family moved from Lark Lane.
Incidentally, I had personal experience of the cleaner air on the Wirral - I spent some months in the Margaret Beavan home (West Kirby) as a child.
Memories I thought I had lost!
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from censuses:
1901 - James W Armour
1891 - unoccupied
1881 - Jane Wallworth (and daughter Elizabeth Ockleston)
I'm finding this search more difficult, and expensive, than I expected. I believe Jane Wallworth (Thornah?) and her daughter Elizabeth Ockleston were the first occupants of the property in 1881, shortly after Elizabeth's husband died of gout. the house is shown as unoccupied in 1891, and I'd like to follow up what happened to the two women in1891. Elizabeth may be living in Croxteth Grove (which I remember as being off Lodge Lane, but I can't find her death (I made a mistake with that certificate) or later marriage. I can't find Jane at all.
Would appreciate any help or suggestions as I'm fast running out of money for certificates!
Thanks to all for help so far.
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Have you seen this 1887 death announcement for Jane Wallworth, 15 Croxteth Grove?
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Jane Wallworth's executrices were Elizabeth Ockleston and Emmeline Fean.
Elizabeth died in Harrogate in 1913. Her executrix was also Emmeline Fean.
https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/#wills
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Elizabeth is in Duchy Road, Harrogate in the 1901 census. Ancestry has transcribed the name as Eckleston.
In 1911 she is visiting Matlock https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X7YM-S5X
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Another senior moment and another mistaken certificate; can anyone help?
The marriage is in 1889 between William Edward Blackburne aged 45, from Canning Street Liverpool, ad Elizabeth Charlotte Richle (hard to transcribe) daughter of Gentleman Peter Richle, deceased. The wedding was in Kensington (London not Liverpool)
Would like to link the Liverpool groom with my Pelham Grove Blackburnes.
Thank you
Lesley
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This might help
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William Edward Blackburne died in December 1892. His address then was 13 Marmion Road, Sefton Park. His widow seems certain to be the Elizabeth Charlotte Blackburne who resided at 11 Pelham Grove in the mid 1890's. She died in 1901.
There were a couple of children: Vera Steven (1890) who seems not to have survived infancy who married Max Wilhelm Aberegg in 1913, and Evelin or Evelyn Olga (1892). Elizabeth and Evelyn are at 5 Bryanston Road in the 1901 census. You can find Evelyn in Rock Ferry in the 1901 census. Evelyn died in Switzerland in 1914.
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The Liverpool FHS forum website, mentioned a few posts ago, is currently out of action but should be running again soon.
Croxteth Grove is indeed off Lodge Lane.
A
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The Liverpool FHS Forum has a new web address https://www.lswlfhs.org.uk/phpBB3/