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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: screwlooose on Friday 19 January 18 01:25 GMT (UK)
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Hey all, It has been way too many years since my last visit.
I have a general question about Australian or more specific Victorian birth registrations. I have a friend who's tree I am piecing together. Her mother was born in 1924. Now I know the indexes go to only 1917 but there seems to be some things that I dont get with this registration.
Her Grandmother was only 16 when the daughter was born and she was born at Abbotsford Convent. I gather they were Aussie versions of work houses. Now my friends mother is still alive and has a birth extract but my friend went to Victorian BMD in the city and they say they cannot find a registration. My brief read states that it is the parents obligation to register the birth. My thinking was that if there is a birth extract there must be a registration. Am I wrong? My friend has contacted the Womens Hospital to see if the birth is registered there and the Convent doesnt keep records, the church does and they are not available til the end of the month. Is there another angle that this can be attacked or researched from?
Her mothers name is Gilbert. Mothers name was Olive May Gilbert. The extract has the DOB as 19/05/1924.To my friends knowledge, there is no father's name. One reason she wanted to get a birth cert just incase a name is there.
Thx for any help
Duane
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Hi
You state your friend's mum is still alive, so if the person you name in your post is that living person please use your modify option and remove her names as it is against the rules here at RChat.
JM
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An extract ... is it on paper with a watermark? I know that NSW no longer issues extracts , but when it did, they were on NSW BDM paper and inclued watermark. Extracts in NSW were issued until about mid 1970s when BDM centralised processes to HQ Sydney. Perhaps similar in VIC .... may I suggest an email enquiry to VIC bdm should give you a written response as to how to obtain full birth cert in respect of current extract ... they would likely expect the enquiry from the person named on the extract .. privacy/ sensitive info ..
JM
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Sorry about posting her name. Her mum is in her 90's and has given permission for me to do the research, so I thought it would be ok. Rules are rules and the name has been removed.
thx for the heads up.
Duane
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Thx for the reply. She went into the registry in Melbourne and they said that there was no record on their computer of the birth. I just felt it was strange that there was an extract issued. My question wuld have been, "where did the info come from to put on the extract?? It must have come from a record somewhere". I suggested she apply online for a birth cert and to fill it in as it was her mum. If they ask for any supporting documentation as a follow up, she can supply it. They asked her why her mother wasnt at BMD to apply in person and she reminded them that her mum was in her 90's and its not as if u can park out the front. As it was she waited in line for an hr just to be told they couldnt find anything. It just seems all a bit weird. I thought that maybe, as she was illigitimate that maybe the birth was registered under a different name, but she got an extract so her name is documented somewhere.
Thx
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Her mum would likely have needed birth cert (not extract) for any Centrelink dealings for any OAP...
JM
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Not sure about that. Nowerdays u are probably right but back in the 70's and earlier, probably not. Im 56 and never had a birth cert, only ever had an extract. Now a licence and even a passport will suffice. Never needed one to open a bank account. My eldest son doesnt have my last name and yet I opened bank accounts, signed him up at school and footy with my last name and never had to show anything. That was in the 80's. So it is a pretty modern thing the ID stuff.
My friend says her mum has only ever had an extract and she has lived her whole life with her mum. She said her got the extract in the 1970's. It just seems a bit strange. I think it is to do with the mother being sent to a convent for the birth, being only 16. Back then the church was a law unto its self. Its just the birth extract thing that keeps throwing a spanner in every idea I get.
Duane
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The changes for ID ie 100 points etc came about around same time as the late Christopher Skase escaped on a Passport that may not have been valid. You wont get far seeking an Au passport without a full birth cert ... and it needs to be one that uses current form not earlier form... agree re 1970s I married that decade ... very little ID needed ...' known to clergy' same with bank acct 'known to staff' and for learners permit 'kts' ... but Centrelink was not known as that back in 1970s ... And it can have strict uncompromising ID rules ...
You may find your 1924 born lass needs to make the enquiry ... NSWBDM can cope with searching by date ... so perhaps VIC can too, but perhaps counter staff trained to protect the info in their registers where they are within restricted access periods..
JM.
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Maybe contact the Good Shepherd Archives re any records from the Abbotsford Convent?
https://www.findandconnect.gov.au/ref/vic/biogs/E000729b.htm
M :)
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When was the birth record extract issued.....date and authorisation should be on it.
Who applied for it....Does it have a file number, record number......
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My grandmother was born in Queensland in 1912 and she personally only ever obtained an extract of birth when she reached pension age. I have this document and it is interesting that the 'entry number' on the extract is different from the registration number on her full birth certificate. I also would have thought that the numbers should match.
Debra :)
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The extract includes the age of mother...........if not, where are you seeing her age.
And the extract includes the exact place of birth....seems like a lot of information for an extract.
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NSWBDM extracts ... the number will not match up to either the a) local line number of the local register from the local district or b) the registration number issued by the formal process at the central registrar generals office from the quarterly returns submitted from conmencement civil rego 1856 until mid 1970s when computerisation introduced at NSW BDM. Ie there were blank numbered forms issued to the various BDM deputies who could look up their local registers and issue extract based on local registration NOT Sure how Vic BDM operated
JM
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Thx for that. I believe she has been in contact with the Convent and they directed her to the church but their achavist or whoever can help isnt avail til the end of the month, so she is waiting for that.
The whole Convent thing is another strange set of facts. The family placed Olive in the convent for the birth as she was only 16. After the birth they took the child to raise it but left Olive at the convent. They never lied or hid anything from the child, but left her mother in the convent. It was only when my friends mother got married, she and her husbant went to the convent and, "signed her mother out", and she went to live with her daughter.
Again, all a bit weird. My friend says her grandmother wasnt disabled or had interlectual problems, and yet her family left her at the convent for 20 years after the child was born.
The convent ran a laundrete, so women worked for their food and bed.
Duane
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What is the document that you have, that you are identifying as an extract.
When was the birth record extract issued.....date and authorisation should be on it.
Who applied for it....Does it have a file number, record number......
What outcome are you wanting from this enquiry. Will the original birth record have more information than the "extract" that you have?
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Sadly it was actually NOT unusual for daughter to be abandoned by family and left at Convent ... 'fallen women' were often no longer acknowledged by their family ... and without social security benefits 1920s a single woman would have no financial help at all ...
Different times had different practices.
RED post ...important questions there
JM
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OK. The reason we are after a birth cert is to see if there is a registered fathers name. We think there will be no fathers name registered but need to check. Her mother said that no one ever gave her a name and her mum never told her a name. I was just enquiring on here coz the fact an extract exists but BMD records office in Melb say there isnt a birth on record purplexed me and I thought I might be missing something. Could be a computer error I suppose, but she took the extract to the BMD records office and they still say there is no birth on their system.
This is the info from the extract.
It has her full name and her date of birth. It has extracted entry No 121454 and the date issued, 19 Nov 1953 It has, 're application FOL MEMO 169517'. Then at the bottom it has, 'official number of entry 10587'.
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Thx JM. Yeah I understand the thing about families not acnowledging things. I just get a bit confused when they raise the child. My friend says that her mum was never lied to about how she came into the world or who and where her mother was, and yet they left their child in the convent for over 20 years. I asked why she didnt just leave and suppose she could have but then what could she have done or lived. She was only 16. She got fed and a bed so it wouldnt take much to get used to it. She could have even been told she couldnt leave. People werent as informed as they are now. Still makes me shake my head.
Says a bit about the daughter though, that she went and got her mum. She got her out in the 1940's and her mum lived with her til 91 yrs old, dying in 1999.
Duane
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10587 is the clue, surely and 1924 would likely be restricted access so perhaps not available to counter staff. .
JM
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You could be right. I was just a little perplexed that There was some info missing or the fact that the mum went through a convent may have meant that something was missed. I suggested she apply online. Not as the daughter but fill it in as if her mum was. If they ask for any documentation she can supply it, even though I'm not sure what they could use. Her mum is too old to into the city. She has her mums marriage but that doesnt directly connect u to ur birth, unless u have an unusual name. I suppose they can use the extract as some form of documention if required.
As I said I thought I was missing something. I have never tried aussie ones. All mine have been UK and I have never had a problem. Except the pile of wrong marriage certs but I think we all have a pile of 'wrong' ones. LOL
Duane
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You can apply for a full birth certificate from BDM Vic online. I had to do it just before Christmas to prove I was me when I sold my house. I had only ever had an extract and that wasn't sufficient for them.
I was lucky enough to be able to apply fully online, they were doing a trial. I had to give them my drivers licence number and Medicare details and it arrived quickly. It was great. Otherwise you have to get copies of documentation, take them and your mother, to a police station to get someone to agree that it is you and then send them with a copy of online payment to bdm. If you go in your mothers place I believe you would need something saying who you are and that you have your mothers permission to deal with them.
Added: just checked and it looks as if the trial is over. A list of acceptable documentation to get the certificate is here.
https://www.bdm.vic.gov.au/about-us/proving-your-identity
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likely medicare card can be part of ID plus other offical records but that is between the elderly lady and the bdm to sort.
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Yep, well, they will have to work through that. Her mum would have nothing from list 1. Might be able to get a couple from list 2, medicare card, (not sure if she got a marriage cert reissued). you would think at 90 odd, she would have a pension card. So list 3 is covered.
Sometimes u wish u had never started. We all go through that though. Sad thing is that it is sooooo much harder, just coz her mum is alive. Wonder if u could apply for it and tick the dead box??
just silly.
Thx to everyone for all their imput.
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Do you know what might have happened in 1953 that Olive May GILBERT (or her daughter b. 1924?) needed some paper record of the birth, and a very abbreviated extract suited the purpose?
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I have an "Extract" of Entry issued in Victoria
The information given is
the date of issue of the extract; this one also shows it was issued by the Office of the Govenment Statist, Melbourne
"Re application Fol" - a 6digit number
MEMO
According to to the Registers in this Office
Judith, (second forename, surname)
was born at (Melbourne suburb)
on (date)
The official Number of the entry is xxxxx/xx
V H ARNOLD, Governemnt Statist
At the bottom of the document it states that, if applying for a full certificate, the Application Folio No and the Official Number are to be quoted.
I realise, as this extract was issued in 1963 that further identifying documentation may be needed now.
In response to Wivenhoe my 'extract' was needed to enrol at Teachers' College in 1963. I did not hold any documentation before that. Interestingly the full certificate I have is dated 1986 but I had a passport by 1968 so heaven knows if I had an earlier full certificate.
My full certificate gives the usual details but the registry number is the one listed on the extract as the Official Number
Judith :-\
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You didn't need a full certificate in days gone by for a passport as I had a passport but only an extract. Yes I needed mine for teachers college too. When I went for my licence my birth extract was still with the powers that be, so my mother gave a stat. dec as to my birth, Dad couldn't do it as he wasn't there. (That's what they said!).
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I'm surprised the Registry even searched without receiving
https://www.bdm.vic.gov.au/sites/default/files/embridge_cache/emshare/original/public/2017/10/8d/8e1563582/Application_Third_Party_Authority_Form_October_2017.pdf
Cando
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may I urge you to encourage your friend to desist from thoughts of applying for the cert without the informed consent of the elderly living person. not only would such application likely infringe personal privacy but also it may be considered as a form of elder abuse. perhaps a wiser course of action would be to pause, step back and wait to allow the system to work . better chance the convent records may have clues than the official birth cert if father not on extract why expect to find him on full..
JM
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thx for the replies. Majm my friends mother is still living and lives with her daughter. Everything she, (we), are doing in regards to her family tree is done with her mums full consent. Her mum is supplying all the info we need to follow the tree backwards as it is quite complicated and has a few twists.
I know my friend and she wouldn't be looking if her mum wasn't interested as well. Just as a point of the complexity. My friends father was originally married to my friends grandmothers sister. He was in his 60's when he fathered my friend and died before she was born. Her mother and him were married for 15 yrs trying to have a baby. My friends mum was born in 24 and my friend in 63, so it is an unusual tree. But nothing we do is without mums consent. Unfortunately she never needed any documentation of her birth or marriages, apparently 3 of them. She got rid of all proof of the previous relationship after it ended. So my friend has no photos, letters or anything. She is loving filling in the gaps and finding out things she never knew. I have encouraged her to do as much as she can while her mum is still alive and able to answer questions and prevent brickwalls.
Can I also say thx to judb for all the info from her extract. It has helped with her mums and she will go back to BMD and see what can be found.
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Thx for that. I believe she has been in contact with the Convent and they directed her to the church but their achavist or whoever can help isnt avail til the end of the month, so she is waiting for that.
The whole Convent thing is another strange set of facts. The family placed Olive in the convent for the birth as she was only 16. After the birth they took the child to raise it but left Olive at the convent. They never lied or hid anything from the child, but left her mother in the convent. It was only when my friends mother got married, she and her husbant went to the convent and, "signed her mother out", and she went to live with her daughter.
Again, all a bit weird. My friend says her grandmother wasnt disabled or had interlectual problems, and yet her family left her at the convent for 20 years after the child was born.
The convent ran a laundrete, so women worked for their food and bed.
Duane
I would suggest that the linked Third Party Application form be completed before approaching the Registry. I had issues obtaining my own mother's birth certificate in 2008 at which time I held a Enduring Power of Attorney. Her birth certificate was required by a Share Registry as her shares had been purchased in her second given name only and by which she was known. I'm a bit stunned that the Victorian Registry even discussed or carried out a 1924 birth search. I was required to forward certified copies of my own birth certificate and marriage certificate along with my passport for identification before any progress could be made. She was born in 1922 and is now deceased.
Perhaps it my be a good idea to look at some facts and read about the social conditions of the era. Both's Olive's sisters were married in 1920 so who helped raise Olive's daughter as Ellen Levena GILBERT nee SHEARGOLD appears to be supporting herself from 1919.
Olive may not have given birth at Abbotsford in 1924.
Like many other Good Shepherd institutions around the world, the laundry was an important facet of the operations at Abbotsford. The commercial laundry, known as the Magdalen laundry, provided income for the Sisters, and work for the girls and women in the Sisters' care.
Another section of the Abbotsford Convent was the Magdalen Asylum (built in 1877). Unlike other 'female refuges' of the time, it did not admit pregnant women and their infants. (Catholic women could go to the St Joseph's Receiving Home at Broadmeadows from 1902.) Inmates of the Magdalen Asylum were housed in a building called Sacred Heart. The majority of them worked in the laundry.
Archivist at Good Shepherd Australia New Zealand Provincialate (Good Shepherd Archives)
Address: PO Box 182, Abbotsford VIC 3067
Conditions of Access
All requests for personal information must be accompanied by some form of personal identification such as a copy of your birth certificate or a copy of your current driver's licence. If you are applying for information about another person, their permission is required. If you are applying for information about a person who is deceased, proof of death is required. Proof of your relationship to the deceased person is also required.
According to the 1924 electoral roll Olive Mary GILBERT's b1908 father, Wm Henry GILBERT was not enrolled to vote at the same address as her her mother Ellen Levena. They appear at the same address in 1919. Ellen continues to be the only GILBERT enrolled at her address on later rolls. She had occupations laundress, presser and cleaner. Have you considered that Ellen was either a widow or Wm Henry has left her and she couldn't support her dau as well.
Olive May's address on the 1942 electoral roll is Female Refuge, Clarke Street, Abbotsford, laundress.
In 1949 Olive is enrolled to vote living at 20 Alfred Street, St Kilda, home duties and her mother is living at 242 Carlisle Street, St Kilda, cleaner.
Ellen was cremated 9 Apr 1953 and her remains are interred at Fawkner Memorial Park. She is the only one interred at the location.
http://www.gmct.com.au/deceased-search.aspx
Do the family know where and when Wm Henry GILBERT died?
Cando
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My friends mum was born in 24 and my friend in 63, so it is an unusual tree. But nothing we do is without mums consent.
Can I also say thx to judb for all the info from her extract. It has helped with her mums and she will go back to BMD and see what can be found.
Going back to the registry is a great idea - it appears the birth was registered so there should be a record of same - could be spelling errors/name changes/whatever that has made the record not easy to find with a simple search by registry staff. I have found many index errors in Vic, NSW and Qld records - and this is probably the issue with this certificate. good luck with your search
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Thx again for all the info.
cando in particular, thx for the research you have done in regards to the Convent. As I said, i have no experience with these. I just equate them to workhouses in London in the 1800's.
As I said Olive stayed at the convent until her daughter married and her and her husband took the mum in. Although she did continue to work and support herself. Different times different values.
I will get Pam to talk to her mum about anything she knows about William and family.
I have emailed a link to all the info u have supplied, (and others), so she can have a read and try to make some sense from it.
Duane