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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Merionethshire => Topic started by: mandywills on Friday 19 January 18 22:35 GMT (UK)
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Please could someone help me locate this family.
I have a David Roberts born 1872, a Blacksmith by trade and lived at Adwyddu Smithy, Penrhyndeudraeth.
His wife was Sarah Jane Roberts, Richards before marriage, born 23 Aug 1870.
Sarah Jane has a sister- Elizabeth Richards born 14th Feb 1876.
David and Sarah have many children, I can not be certain of the precise amount but do guess it possibly being 8 children. One of the children is a son - Robert John.
David and Sarah are buried together, Sarah died 1944 and her husband David died 1951.
Thank You
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Can you clarify what you mean about wanting help to locate the family?
When and where did they marry?
Have you looked for them on the 1901 and 1911 censuses to get details of their children?
www.rootschat.com/links/01egx/
If you are researching backwards - have you looked on the 1881 census for them? The 1881 is free on Family Search as is the 1871
www.rootschat.com/links/01egx/
When & where was Robert born?
You can use GRO online to search for Roberts births with mothers maiden name Richards. Registration is free as is use of the site
www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/indexes_search.asp
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This family has a Robert John - do you know when he was born?
1901 add Griffin Terrace Penrhyndeudraeth
David Roberts 30
Sarah Jane 30
Jennie 8
Ellen Blodwen 7
Robert Jno 5
Eva Dd 4 - I think it's supposed to be Evan Dd possible for David - male anyway so not Eva
Annie Richards 29 sister in law
Annie helpfully provides a link between Richards and Roberts
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More children born between 1901-1911
Gwen Jones Roberts
Llewylyn Tecwyn Roberts
Sarah Lizzie Roberts
Meirion Roberts
That makes 8 but 10 in total means that 2 have died.
As Carole says you can check out births and deaths on the GRO registration index to track them all down :)
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The family in Griffin Terrace certainly sounds like them, and this is the search I followed.
The problem being is that this Sarah Jane remarried an Evan Jones in 1904, she died in 1944.
My Sarah Jane did not remarry, however she did die in the same year 1944.
It seems both Sarah’s also had 8 children and both seem to have a son named Robert John
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Hi is David with Sarah Jane in 1911, as their is this birth you may wish to check out:-
Gwen Jones Roberts March qtr 1902 Festiniog 11b 335 mmn RICHARD
Where is the newly married Sarah Jane to an Evan Jones in 1911, and death of David Roberts?
Where did the marriage to Evan take place in 1904, I can see a possible to an Annie Roberts in Festiniog?
Did your Robert John Roberts marry an Ellen Jane Morris Dec qtr 1924 Festiniog, as he looks to be the one born Sept qtr 1896 Festiniog 11b 363 mmn Richards?
Keyboard86
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Sarah Lizzie born Jun 1907 has mothers name Richards so this can't be the family with the Sarah Jane that remarries in 1904 - if that helps decide which is which.
My Sarah Jane did not remarry, however she did die in the same year 1944.
So the family with Sarah Lizzie must be your family.
Which one is your direct ancestor - Robert John?
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Sarah of Griffin Terrace is still Roberts in 1911
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This search is for a friend, so unfortunately I am not familiar with all the details.
I can confirm that yes Robert John Roberts married Ellen Morris. Robert John Roberts is my friends grandfather.
I have been told that Robert John Roberts was a blacksmith by trade and so was his father David Roberts.
Also, David and Sarah lived at ‘Adwyddu Smithy, Penrhyndeudraeth’.
I have been able to locate them on the 1939 census, but am having trouble pinpointing them before then, and therefore gaining the names of all the children.
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Hi
Have got some info incl. Monument Inscriptions for the two missing children who were born and died between Censuses and obituary of Gwennie, died 1915 aged 13, Robert John Roberts in 1911 Census, Family Trees and David Roberts' return from USA.
Griffin family appears to be correct - think you've gone astray on the 2nd marriage business.
If you send me your e-mail address by Personal Message I can send info re 1911 Census.
Have to go out now, and will be out running tonight if the weather holds. Will send more details, but probably not till tomorrow.
Emyr
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Hi
Received your PM with e-mail address; also confirmation that you've received the e-mail I sent you thro' Ancestry with link to 1911 Census. Have sent this morning link to Sarah J Roberts at Adwyddu, 1911 Census.
You've referred to a second wedding for Sarah J, and in your e-mail you say that's come from a Public Family Tree (Elizabeth Earle). It's obviously wrong as Sarah and David Roberts are still together in 1939 Census. The 1871 Census info is also wrong, residence Llandanwg. The family are at Cae-fali, outside Penrhyn on the Maentwrog road, pa. Llandecwyn. I hadn't realised until recently that part of that parish extended to the North side of the Dwyryd. Age of Jane 7 months - DOB 1939 Census 23/08/1870. I've sent message to Elizabeth Earle, have not as yet received reply.
Info on following Censuses to follow.
Can't find David Roberts 1911 Censuses, but in Welsh newspaper, Gwalia, 28/11/1910, it's reported that : On Saturday night, Mr Robert Richards, Noddfa, and Mr David Roberts, The Smithy, Adwy Ddu, returned from America. I don't know whether or not Robert is Sarah's brother, born c.1869 (1871 Census age 2). It's possible that David, or both, had returned to America before 1911 Census.
Both 'Y Genedl' and 'Y Dinesydd Cymreig' report the death of Gwennie, daughter of Mr & Mrs D Roberts, Adwyddu, in Dec 1914 - paper dated 29/12/1914 says she died Thursday morning.
Sarah J was a servant in Toxteth Park, Lancashire in 1891 Census.
Found the deaths of the 2 missing children, but mislaid the info. Will turn up!
Further info to follow.
Emyr
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Hi
Monumemt Inscriptions from 2 graves Eglwys y Drindod Sactaidd/Holy Trinity Church, Penrhyndeudraeth - in Welsh.
E008. In memory of Gwen, dear child of David & Sarah Roberts, Griffin Terrace. Died 19th April 1900 aged 6 months.Also Gwilym J Roberts, who died 16th January 1906, a year old.
Births Dec 1899 (>99%)
Roberts Gwen Jones Festiniog 11b 343
Deaths Jun 1900 (>99%)
Roberts Gwen Jones 0 Festiniog 11b 280
Births Mar 1905 (>99%)
Roberts Gwilym John Festiniog 11b 357
Deaths Mar 1906 (>99%)
Roberts Gwilym John 1 Festiniog 11b 268
E153. In loving memory of Gwen J Roberts, dear daughter of of David and S J Roberts, Adwy Ddu, born 25th November 1901, died 23d December 1914.
Deaths Dec 1914 (>99%)
Roberts Gwen J 13 Festiniog 11b 480
Penrhyndeudraeth Parish Register (On Find my Past):
Gwen Jones Roberts Adwy ddu, Penrhyndeudraeth Burial Dec 28th 1914 Age 13yrs.
(the other burials might be there as well).
Can't find Baptism on Free BMD
This might be the North Wales BMD entry - Gwen and Winifred are the same.
North Wales BMD only gives the year:
ROBERTS Winifred Ffestiniog Gwynedd (Caernarfon) ARDB1/48/E291
The reference indicates that it is in the correct Sub-registration dist. i.e. Deudraeth.
Emyr
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Hi
David Roberts' family from 1871 Census onwards:
1871 at Ty'n y Bryn, Talsarnau, Llanfihangel y Traethau, Merionethshire. Robert Robert 32 Stone Mason Merionethshire. Wife & children born LL y Tr, Jane 34, Jane 9, Robert 6.
1881 Census: Jane(Widow - Grocer) 43, Jane 19 (Dressmaker) , Robert(Quarryman) 16, David 9, Elizabeth 7. All born Talsarnau.
Llanfair juxta Harlech Parish Register Robert Roberts, Talsarnau , buried April 24th 1876 age 37yrs.
1891 Census: Village of Talsarnau. Jane 53, Elizabeth 17 (Dressmaker), both Ll. y Tr., Lilian Mauris Kendrick(?) 6, no relation given, born Portmadoc. Haven't found David.
1901 Census: 2 Rhyw St (?) Talsarnau, Jane 63, Annie C(?) Roberts, grand daughter, 12 , born Blaenau Ffestiniog.
Also 1901 Census: David/Sarah Jane Roberts + family at Griffin Terrace, Penrhyndeudraeth.
1911 Census: Jane, 73. at Ty'n y Bryn, Talsarnau on her own.
Jane died May 30, 1928, aged 90, and buried with husband.Parish Records on Find my Past only to 1927.
M.I. from GFHS M370, 306 :
Er cof am Robert Roberts annwyl briod Jane Roberts, Ty'n y Bryn, Talsarnau, yr hwn a fu farw Ebrill 22, 1876 yn 37 ml oed. Hefyd ei annwyl briod Jane Roberts, a fu farw Mai 30, 1928 yn 90 ml. oed.
Sending this without checking, have to be in a meeting in 20 minutes !
Emyr
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Hi
Sarah Jane Richards' family:
1871 Census at Cae Valy Gate, Llandecwyn (Cae Fali - about mile outside Penrhyn on Maentwrog road)
Evan 24 Quarryman b. Trawsfynydd; Jane 30 b. Penmorfa, Caernarvonshire; Robert 2 b. Portmadoc, Caerns.; Sarah J 7 months b. Llandecwyn;
1881 Census High St., Penrhyndeudraeth , Llanfihangel y Traethau, Evan 35, Grocer; Jane 38 ; Robert 12 b. Ll y Tr. (differs from 1871); Sarah J 11 ; Ellen 9; Anne 7; Elizabeth 4, all Ll y Tr.
1891 Census High St, PDD, Evan 44 Widower; Anne 19; Ellen 17; Elizabeth 14 (the 3 born Llandecwyn !) Jane died Q1 1890 age 48 Fest. 11b 326 ? Buried Penmorfa (M.I. in Welsh): In loving memory of Jane,dear wife of Evan Richards, ** CLOTH HALL**, Penrhyndeudraeth, died Feb. 23d 1890 aged 48
Evan remarries Q3 1893, Machynlleth, Mont. Reg. Dist. 11b 246, with Annie Jones. Son David Hesketh Richards born, Fest., Deudraeth Q3 1894 11b 367.
1891 Census, Toxteth Park, Lancashire ? age slightly low, Sarah J Richards, Servant, Single 19, b. Penrhyndeudraeth.
Marriage Fest. 11b 583 Q3 1893 David Roberts/Sarah J Richards.
1901 Census at High St., Penrhyn, Evan 56, Flour Merchant; Annie 46 Machynlleth; David H Richards 6 Penrhyn. Still there 1911 - no more children.
Annie died 02/02/1918 age 61, address, Heulwen, Penhyndeudraeth; Evan 27/05/1924 aged 78; D Hesketh Richards, 16/01/1944, aged 49. Buried together in Minffordd Cemetery.
David Hesketh Richards military records:
As at 25/11/1913 : Age 19yrs 6 months, born Minffordd, Penrhyndeudraeth, addres: 66 Vandyke(?) St, Lodge Lane, Liverpool (?); had been member of Officer Training Corp, University of Wales Contingent; served in 1st West Lancs, Field Ambulance RAMC ; discharged 20/01/1915 to continue medical studies, next of kin Mr E Richards, Gwynfryn, Penrhos, Aberdovey.
Welsh newspaper report August 1914 under PENRHYNDEUDRAETH, congratulates him for passing his first exams towards degrees of MRCS, LRCP and LM. Says that he is formerly of **CLOTH HALL**, Penrhyn, but now of Aberdovey. In 1916 he .......he was elected a Fellow of the University of Liverpool, having obtained the Robert Gee Fellowship in anatomy.
At time of death he lived at Liverpool, and died in the Royal Infirmary. Probate was granted 10/07/1944 to Sarah Jane Roberts (wife of David Roberts), but she died Sept 10th and a further grant of probate 22/02/1945 to Idris Wyn Richards, grocer.
Emyr
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Hi, I would like to thank everybody especially Mandy for initial message and also thank everybody else for their input into my family history. As you can see I'm now rootschat member finally!
My great grandparents are David & Sarah J Roberts which had 10 children which by 1911 2 of the children had died. Has previously posted Gwen died young at the age of 13, I have been to her grave and unfortunately the grave stone is unreadable and due to the size of the stone I don't think anybody else is buried with her. On a previous post Emyr you have mentioned a Gwylim J Roberts as another member of the Roberts family can you give me more info on grave locatio etc.
Thank you,
Gareth
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Hi
Same grave as Gwen died 1900. E008 Holy Trinity Church, Penrhyndeudraeth. My info is from the Gwynedd Family History Society publications. See Reply #11. There are errors, as one would expect, in these publications. Haven't visited the graves to check the info; will do so sometime.
Adwy Ddu Smithy is on the main road thro' Penrhyn, next door to Deudraeth Garage showroom, Minffordd side. There is a slate plaque with the name on the building.
Emyr
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Hi, I have just checked cymdeithas teuluoedd gwynedd M374 and think the entry E008 is the wrong person, to confirm this Gwen J Roberts appears on the 1911 census aged 9.
I think entry E153 is the right person and no other name appears on that entry(as you have posted #11)
Gareth
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Hi
Visited Penmorfa, Minffordd and Penrhyn cemeteries yesterday afternoon. Penmorfa and Minffordd relevant info correctly transcribed.
Penrhyn E008 correct except for 'J' ommitted in 'Sarah J Roberts. Gwen died 1900 age 6 months and Gwilym J died 1906 aged 1 year. This agrees with the Free BMD entries for birth and death I've quoted. According to 1911 Census, they've lost 2 children.
Penrhyn E153 poses a problem. It's a double size plot with slate curbing round it. In the plot there's a slanted plinth to which is attached a medallion shaped stone. There seems to have been something written on it. This stone is too small to have contained the info in M374 on it. Sometimes inscriptions are on the curbing, but this is covered with ivy. I cleared a small bit with difficulty, then gave up as I had a train to catch. There is a notice saying that part of the cemetery is kept as a wild flower garden, so I won't clear the grave without permission from the Church authorities.
Free BMD records the death of a Gwen J Roberts in Q4 1914 age 13. The Parish Burial Register agrees with this, burial 28th Dec. So it appears that there were 2 children named Gwen. The first died April 1900 and the second Gwen was born 25th Nov 1901 and died 1914 so was alive at time of 1911 Census.
Emyr
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Thank you Emyr for your time I really appreciate what you have found out about my family. If the weather is ok tomorrow afternoon I will visit the cemetery and have another look my self
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Hi
Called at the cemetery yesterday afternoon and cleared the crawling ivy off the kerbstones, and there is no inscription. However, looking at the 'medallion' from a different angle and lighting conditions, I could read 'Gwen J Roberts' near the top, and '1914' at bottom right. In my last posting I said the stone was too small to contain all the wording in the MI booklet. I'd got mixed up and wrongly thought that there were 2 children in E153.
Had the family been C of E, their baptism would have been recorded in the Parish Register, with name of parents and abode. It appears that they were Wesleyan. Unfortunately name of parents aren't included in the burial Parish Records. Gwen died 1900, address is Griffin Terr.. Gwilym John Roberts died 1906, address is Caerffynnon Terr., which is the road that splits off the main road by Deudraeth Garage and continues towards School Street. Track between it and Deudraeth Garage leads to Adwy Ddu Isaf .
Emyr
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Hi, I visited the cemetery yesterday before the rain. I have found the grave of Gwen and Gwylim and taken a picture for record. I can also make out some words on Gwen J grave stone, the words Er serchog in a arch shape at the top the name Gwen J Roberts and I can see the word annwyl.
Before going down to Penrhyn I have purchased 3 birth cert Gwen, Gwylim and Gwen J, I will let you know when I receive the cert's.
Gareth
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Hi
Have previously mentioned newspaper report of Robert Richards, NODDFA, and David Roberts returning from America, and suggesting that perhaps Robert was David's brother in-law. He was not, but he was my gt. uncle! My grandmother's sister, Sarah, married an Edwin Roberts from Penrhyndeudraeth and they lived at Borthygest. Edwin died a few years into the marriage and later Sarah married Robert Richards from PenrhynDD, a widower. Sarah is in 1911 Census at NODDFA, with one son from each marriage. Robert's name and details are included, but crossed out. So both Robert and David seemed to have gone off together again. There is a report in Gwyliedydd Newydd, Wesleyan weekly publication, 03/05/1910 , that David Roberts, precentor in their Penrhyn chapel, was leaving for British Columbia, and that they would be without his services for a while; so obviously was leaving with the intention of returning.
Emyr
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Hi, Emyr I have been told that this picture was taken In Canada, Dafydd Roberts is the man with the little girl on his knee. Is it possible that your relation is in the picture also?
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Hi
Robert Richards died 02/03/1938 aged 58, his son,David Richards, by my gt aunt, died 23/11/1945, aged 38 - knocked off his bicycle by a lorry travelling in same direction, on the hill by Minffordd Cemetery. My gt. Aunt died 11/01/1946 age 72, shortly after my 3d birthday. After she died whatever she had of worth was sold and proceeds went to her son from 1st marriage, John Roberts, by then living in USA. Whatever was left, my grandmother got. When she died, my father inherited, so I might have a photograph somewhere. Do you know when the photograph was taken?
In Yr Herald Cymraeg 30/11/1915 it's reported that: We're glad to see that Mr Robert Richards, Noddfa, John Phillips, Penygroes and W John Edwards, Ty Eiddew, have returned safely from Canada and are looking well.
No mention of David Roberts. He could have been in Canada with the others, but come back earlier, possibly around time of death of Gwen d. 23.12.1914 . He was home Jan 1915 , as it's reported that the Band of Hope had been reactivated under David Roberts Adwyddu and Tom Lloyd, Eryri Terr. Can find no reference to him between 1911 - 1914.
John Roberts, Robert Richards' stepson went to Canada, don't know when. He was home, aged 16 time of 1911 Census. I assume he went to join his stepfather. It's reported 10/08/1917 that : PENRHYNDEUDRAETH Private John Roberts, Noddfa, arrived home last week from Canada, where he joined the Canadian Contingent.
Emyr
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Hi, sorry no idea about a date for the photo. Was given the photo by my father first cousin from Talsarnau
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Hi Emyr, 2 out of 3 birth certificate came today.
Gwylim J Roberts born 20 January 1905
Gwen J Roberts born 22 October 1899
Both have correct parent names just that a change of address as you have indicated on a previous post.
It looks like both Gwen's had the middle name of Jones then.
The other certificate for Gwen (1902-1914) failed and i have received a full refund, I will look again for correct cert.
Gareth
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Hi
According to M.I. E153 Gwen was born 25/11/1901. I suspect that the birth was not registered until 1902:
Name: Gwen Jones Roberts
Registration Year: 1902
Registration Quarter: Jan-Feb-Mar
Registration district: Festiniog
Inferred County: Merionethshire
Volume: 11b
Page: 335
Is this the one you ordered ?
Will send a PM tonight or tomorrow.
Emyr
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Hi, that's the certificate which failed but the date was 1901, could that be the problem it should be 1902.
Gareth
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Hi
The date for the reference I've quoted is first quarter of 1902, i.e. the date of registering but it could be of a birth in last quarter of 1901. When ordering certificates you need to quote the year of REGISTRATION.
Emyr
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Thank you Emyr for all the info and help you have given.
And to Gar- you could repost the photo in ‘photo date & restoration’ on this site, and leave a comment asking if someone could please date your photo. They are usually spot-on with dating fair play.
If you need a photo restoring to, they work wanders.