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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: ianocon on Sunday 21 January 18 02:47 GMT (UK)
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I think Catherine power died in Greenwich Union infirmary on 29 Aug 1891. I am trying to find when she was admitted but can't find how to access Ancestry (or any other site) Greenwich workhouse records and admissions and discharges for 1891. Can anyone help me to do that? I am an Ancestry subscriber.
Ian
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I am not seeing a death registration that would fit Catherine Power dying 29 Aug 1891 Greenwich :-\
http://www.workhouses.org.uk/Greenwich/
At the bottom of this page it gives links to records on Ancestry & F M P
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Thanks for reply
I have a death cert Greenwich JAS 1891 01d 579. Sub District Greenwich East.
Catherine Powers 47 years died 29 August in Union Infirmary, Hawker of 22 Mill Lane Deptford
Informant - WCS Burney, Medical Officer Union Infirmary.
Thanks for article - fascinating account of workhouse history
I am trying to track down when she went in because I believe she was also known as Catherine O'Connell the unmarried wife of Jeremiah O'Connell. That Catherine was in Islington Infirmary in June 1891. If there was an overlap it can't be the same person if there is no overlap my theory may still be a possibility.
I'm also working on the assumption that her maiden name might well have been used on her death certificate rather than her assumed relationship name of O'Connell.
Thanks for your help
Ian
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Have you tried the links given in that article to search Ancestry/ F M P workhouse records.
I see why I missed the death Powers not Power :)
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Bit of delayed response because I'm in NZ!
Have tried following the link to Ancestry from that article.
Can't find anything for Catherine Powers or Power in Greenwich.
Yet I know she was there in 1891 because of death cert so she must have been admitted at some point.
Also I can get into Islington admittance and discharge records and search day by day for 1880s and 90s but can't do that for Greenwich.
I'm wondering if perhaps Ancestry don't have them for Greenwich for that period?
Ian
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I don’t think Ancestry has the records for that time.
If you go to the London, England, Workhouse Admission and Discharge Records, 1659-1930 Page there is a ‘Browse this Collection’ box on the right with drop down selection.
This shows Admission and Discharge Register 1896-1927.
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Ancestry have the records, but they are not searchable.
Use the Browse panel on the right, and this is the route:
London, England, Poor Law and Board of Guardian Records, 1430-1930
Borough: Greenwich
Parish: Greenwich
Record Type: Admission and Discharge
Hospital and Infirmary, Vanburgh Hill, Se10, 1891
The discharge/death record is on image 151 (of 198), so you can work backwards from there.
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Thanks - that's great - will go there now
Ian
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That’s great Bookbox. :)
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Brilliant - thanks so much.
Have tracked back from "dead" 28/8/81 to admission to Vanburgh Hill Infirmary on 23 June 81.
Registered as Hawker, RC, born 1844 from St Paul parish. No observations unfortunately.
Catherine (O'Connell) was discharged from Islington Infirmary on 13th June so my speculation they may be the same person is still a possibility.
This theory stems from the fact that Jeremiah and Catherine O'Connell's son Jeremiah b. 20/2/1878 was born in Greenwich with mother formerly Power. I can find no evidence that Jeremiah and Catherine ever married which according to accounts wouldn't be unusual amongst hawkers in that era. Also Catherine Connell was admitted to Greenwich Infirmary on 4/2/1878 destitute and pregnant so birth on 20 Feb fits with mother formerly Power.
I'm still wondering why if she had been in Islington Infirmary one month before death she moved to Greenwich. Perhaps as that article says there wasn't much tolerance for one workhouse (eg Islington) to keep a pauper when that person's settlement was with another (eg Greenwich in this case).
Thanks for help
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I'm still wondering why if she had been in Islington Infirmary one month before death she moved to Greenwich. Perhaps as that article says there wasn't much tolerance for one workhouse (eg Islington) to keep a pauper when that person's settlement was with another (eg Greenwich in this case).
You could see if there are any Outwards Removal Orders for Islington. Again, they probably won't be searchable on Ancestry.
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Never neglect the Religious Creed Register!
If - as they often were - the creed register is arranged by first letters of surnames it will cut down the time finding the discharge if you have the admission. Or find the admission more quickly.
Also, they may contain extra info!
The Greenwich Union Infirmary Creed Register for that period gives names of nearest relatives.
Powers Catherine
age 47
date of admission 23 June 91
parish from which admitted S Paul
religious creed R.C.
name/address nearest known relatives Fa. E. Evans 22 Mill Lane (Bro: J O'Connell 82 Campbell Rd Finsbury Park)
date of discharge/death 29.8.91
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Living at 82 Campbell Road, Islington, in the 1891 census were -
Jeremiah O'Connell Head 39 Hawker
Catherine O'Connell wife 44
Jeremiah O'Connell Son 13
Catherine O'Connell Daur 8
Sarah O'Connell Daur 2
(piece 149 folio 99 page 6)
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Hi jonw65
That's fantastic information not only does it give me the Infirmary dates but it gives me the first confirmation of the link of Catherine Powers with J O'Connell since the birth certificate of their son Jeremiah in 1878 where the mother was Catherine O'Connell formerly Powers.
Catherine seems to have used O'Connell and Powers interchangeably. For example on 25/11/86 she was discharged from Islington as Powers but in June 91 she was there as Catherine O'Connell.
Who knows why she chose one name over another!
Do you know what the practice was with Creed records about naming people?
I'm interested in the nearest relative being Bro J O'Connell. That is most likely Jeremiah who she claimed to be married to in the census and on birth certs. Is the use of "Bro" a convention to describe someone who was a member of the faith or would it signify a real brother? - (she did have a brother in law John O'C). Alternatively I suppose she may have had to use it because she was never married in church so couldn't call him a husband.
Finally, what is the best way for me to access Creed records - I can't immediately see how to do that from Ancestry
Many thanks again for your help
Ian
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London, England, Poor Law and Board of Guardian Records, 1430-1930
from the Browse panel ...
Borough: Greenwich
Parish: Greenwich
Document Type: Religious Creed
Hospital and Infirmary, Vanburgh Hill, Se10, 1884-1892
image 317 (of 446)
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I'm interested in the nearest relative being Bro J O'Connell. I suppose she may have had to use it because she was never married in church so couldn't call him a husband.
Hi
I think that's the likeliest explanation. And, as in most records, not everything recorded in the poor law records is totally accurate.
But it provides the link to Jeremiah O'Connell that you were hoping for. It certainly looks like your hypothesis was correct.
A bit puzzled about E Evans. That part of Mill Lane may have been lodging houses?
John
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Looking at the record do you think it might say ‘Fd’ rather than ‘Fa’. Perhaps it means friend ???
Would this be that Mill Lane?
http://www.ideal-homes.org.uk/lewisham/assets/galleries/deptford-new-town/mill-lane
That was the address on the death certificate, I think. Or perhaps a birth certificate - I’m just trying to find an earlier reference.
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Hi heywood
Yes, you are absolutely right, it does seem to be Fd. Friend makes sense.
Sorry about that!
John
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Here is a previous thread which has Mill Lane reference - reply #13
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=782934.msg6384284#msg6384284
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Thanks to all for help.
I have 3 references for Mill Lane being the address of Catherine (Powers) Connell
On 4/2/1878 the Greenwich Union workhouse records at the time of son jeremiah's birth show her as wife of Jeremiah Connell(a removeable with no address) but her address as 11 Mill Lane
On 31/3/1883 date of Dtr Catherine's birth her address is Mill Lane (no number)
On death in 1891 her address was 22 Mill Lane
This is probably enough to suggest that Deptford Greenwich was her "Settlement" District for workhouse purposes - she kept going back there.
Also although (husband) Jeremiah Connell spent a lot of time in Hackney workhouses and Infirmaries there is one reference to him in Greenwich Union Infirmary on 18th feb 1880.
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Thanks for all the help
Am now trying to track down Catherine Power's earlier history
I think she must have had children with someone in Liverpool before getting together with Jeremiah O'Connell. In 1881 census in Kensington there are Thomas 13 and Mary 11 both born Liverpool with Jeremiah age 32 and Catherine O'Connell age 27. However I have Jeremiah's birth cert of 10/3/1854 so he was really 26/27 in 1881 and would have fathered Thomas at the age of 14 - unlikely I think.
So chances are Catherine came to relationship with Jeremiah with 2 children.
I've got certs for the only two Liverpool Powers births I can find Thomas 1867 Liverpool Mar Qtr 8B 128 and Mary Powers Liverpool 1869 Qtr Sept 8B 71 but their mother's names are not relevant - Mary Scully and Mary Ann Hanrahan. So I'm assuming they (not unreasonably) must have had their father's name when born/baptized.
I've looked without success for a Catherine Powers marriage between 1862 (she about 15) and 1868 (Thomas birth) so think I've reached a dead end perhaps because she didn't marry (again!) Unless I've missed something - can anyone can see a way of finding who the father could have been?