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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Wicklow => Topic started by: Tickettyboo on Saturday 27 January 18 18:03 GMT (UK)
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(Trying again after posting to the wrong forum-have deleted that one)
Apologies for the long post, but I wouldn’t want anyone to waste time looking for what I have already found.
Short version is that I am hoping that someone may be able to find this family in the 1901 census ( I am boss-eyed from looking and failing!) Either that or perhaps point me to somewhere that may be able to help me verify that they were still in the same place between 1896 and 1911 and therefore be fairly sure I have the right records - which I feel is highly likely.
If anyone has the time to review the following and let me know if I am going off on the wrong track or making reasonable headway with this family, I would appreciate it.
Thanks
Boo
Details:
Patrick Walsh
Parish Register Scan - baptised 14th September 1850 Killaveney RC Parish, parents Michael Walsh and Ann Doyle, Abode Drummond (sic) - from another son’s English marriage cert I know that Dad, Michael, was a blacksmith.
Patrick married Eliza(beth) Haughton 5th Feb 1883, in Enniscorthy RC Chapel, Wexford (bride’s home parish). His occupation was Smith, residence Ballinglen, Co Wicklow, Father Michael Walsh, Smith, Deceased
9 children between Feb 1884 and 1896, I have baptism records (transcriptions) for some and civil birth register entries (register scans) for them all, they all have Patrick Walsh (blacksmith) and Eliza Haughton as parents.
1 Unnamed Female Feb 1884, no baptism record found, Civil reg residence - Drummin
2 Marianne, Dec 1884, a twin, baptism and civil register both have residence as Drummin
3 Michael, Dec 1884, a twin, baptism and civil register both have residence as Drummin
4 Edward, Jan 1886, baptism and civil register both have residence as Drummin
5 Ellen, July 1888, no baptism record found, Civil reg residence - Drummin
Ellen married Lawrence Cranitch, Killaveney RC Church, Aug 1912, Residence was Ballinglen father Patrick Walsh ‘tradesman, dec'd’
6 Kate/Catherine, Aug 1890, baptism record says Drummin, Civil register says Ballinglen
7 James, Nov 1892, baptism record says Drummin, Civil register says Ballinglen
James died March 1893, Death register residence is Ballinglen.
8 Patrick, Jan 1894, Baptism at Killeveney, no abode recorded, civil register says Ballinglen
note on this baptism transcription says "married in Annacuna to Kathleen Slea , 11 June 1947
9 Elizabeth, Mar 1896, Baptism at Killeveney, no abode recorded, civil register says Ballinglen
I have extremely limited Irish geographical knowledge, but web searches indicate that Ballinglen is a smaller place within Drummin, or t’other way round, I am really not sure.
Okay, all well and good, and I then tried the 1901 and 1911 census
1901 I am drawing a very frustrating blank
1911 has resident at, according to the address panel,
County: Wicklow, Poor Law Union: Shillelagh, DED Ballybeg, Barony: Ballinacor South, Parish Kilcommmon, Townland, Ballybeg
Elizabeth Walsh, head, RC, age 55, widow, married 28 years, 9 children, 4 still living, born Co Wicklow
Michael Walsh, son, RC, 26, Blacksmith, single, born Co Wicklow
Edward Walsh, son, RC, 25, Blacksmith, single, born Co Wicklow
Ellen Walsh, daughter, RC, 22, Post Office Assistant, single, born Co Wicklow
Patrick Walsh, son, RC, 17, Blacksmith, single, born Co WIcklow
Patrick Kenny, servant, RC, 50, Blacksmith, single born Co Wicklow
All of the above, with the exception of Mum, Elizabeth’s, birth county which was Wexford not Wicklow, ticks the right boxes.
I have a ‘quite possible’ death register entry for Patrick’s death
June 1909, Ballinglen, Patrick Walsh, married, age 53, occ: Tradesman, Informant: Edward Walsh, son, Ballinglen
I am interpreting the change is occupation description (on Ellen’s marriage record and the death record for Patrick) from ‘Blacksmith’ to ‘Tradesman’ as being ‘qualified at his trade’.
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I only did a Search for Walsh, age 2 ( +/- 5 yrs) 1901 ... don't see Elizabeth/Eliza
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01lf0/
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https://www.logainm.ie/en/55893?s=Killaveny
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3 Drummin in Wicklow!!
"... baptism and civil register both have residence as Drummin..." in what District Office??
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Wicklow Reg Districts
Baltinglass
Naas
Rathdown
Rathdrum
Shillelagh
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Thanks for taking the time to look hallmark
1 The search for Elizabeth age 2 +/-5 years. - thanks
Have not yet found her death register entry. As there were 4 children listed (none of them Elizabeth) in 1911 and Elizabeth (senr) mistakenly, but luckily completed the section about years married/children born and still living, all I can safely assume is that Elizabeth died sometime between her birth in 1896 and the 1911 census.
I have tried for Mum, and all of the children listed in 1911 but am still drawing a blank for the 1901 census :-(
2 Thanks for the link, have bookmarked that and will have a mooch round later
3 Civil Registration districts were:
For the parents marriage:
RC Church of Enniscorthy, Registrars District of Enniscorthy no2, Union of Enniscorthy, Co Wexford
births /deaths were:
Superintendant Registrars District of Shillelagh,
Registrars District of Tinahely
Union of Shillelagh
County Wicklow
for Ellen's marriage it was RC Church of Killaveney, Registrars District Tinahely, Union of Shillelagh, Co Wicklow
Boo
PS
4. My old age has enough to be blamed for! :-)
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Just trying to figure which cemetery they might be at...
http://www.igp-web.com/IGPArchives/ire/wicklow/photos/tombstones/markers.htm
http://search.freefind.com/find.html?oq=walsh&id=13812782&pageid=r&_charset_=UTF-8&bcd=%C3%B7&scs=1&s=wicklowstones&query=walsh&Find=Search&mode=ALL&search=all
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Patrick would have died 1895 at earliest, checked Wills...don't see anything
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01lf1/ link to Wills
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http://www.rootschat.com/links/01lf2/ gets you the results of this search
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http://www.rootschat.com/links/01lf3/ gets the results for this search
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Elizabeth Walshe died 1st May 1896 age 6 weeks. Death registered by her father Patrick.
Isobel
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Elizabeth Walshe died 1st May 1896 age 6 weeks. Death registered by her father Patrick.
Isobel
Is there a Link to it?
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Elizabeth Walshe died 1st May 1896 age 6 weeks. Death registered by her father Patrick.
Isobel
Is there a Link to it?
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1894/02274/1854253.pdf
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Elizabeth Walshe died 1st May 1896 age 6 weeks. Death registered by her father Patrick.
Isobel
Is there a Link to it?
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1894/02274/1854253.pdf
? Patrick married Eliza(beth) Haughton 5th Feb 1883, in Enniscorthy RC Chapel, Wexford (bride’s home parish).
Father is John, Mother is Byrne
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https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1896/05900/4674221.pdf
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Elizabeth Walshe died 1st May 1896 age 6 weeks. Death registered by her father Patrick.
Isobel
Thank you for looking I do appreciate your time but, though a possible, that one doesn't match the parents I am looking for.
Boo
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https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1896/05900/4674221.pdf
Thank you! That certainly looks like her, she was born 20th March 1896 so that death date is 6 weeks to the day!
Much appreciated :-)
One more sorted :-) he he I have 6 more brothers to go after Patrick, you may want to prepare a flask and some sandwiches :-) These are totally new people to me and hand in the air I only ask for help when I have got to the utterly bamboozled stage but I find Irish ancestors exceptionally difficult as I don't have all my usual checking points like census returns, directories, etc etc. and even more than y Scottish and English folk the Irish ones seem to have a stock repertoire of about a dozen first names which only bamboozles me further :-)
Thanks again hallmark!
Boo
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Elizabeth Walshe died 1st May 1896 age 6 weeks. Death registered by her father Patrick.
Isobel
Thank you for looking I do appreciate your time but, though a possible, that one doesn't match the parents I am looking for.
Boo
Sorry - copied the wrong link. This is the correct one.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1896/05900/4674221.pdf
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Sorry - copied the wrong link. This is the correct one.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1896/05900/4674221.pdf
I do love it when different people corroborate the same thing! Thanks isobelw, that really does seem to be her. Your time and help is appreciated.
and I 'did' look for her, but I'd reached the punch drunk stage and obviously missed that record.
Boo
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Elizabeth's death
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1921/05091/4405009.pdf
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Elizabeth Walshe died 1st May 1896 age 6 weeks. Death registered by her father Patrick.
Isobel
Thank you for looking I do appreciate your time but, though a possible, that one doesn't match the parents I am looking for.
Boo
Sorry - copied the wrong link. This is the correct one.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1896/05900/4674221.pdf
Easily done!!
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Death results for Walsh of Shillelagh from 1896 to 1999
Displaying results 1 - 55 of 55. http://www.rootschat.com/links/01lf4/
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Marriage results for Walsh of Shillelagh from 1905 to 1941
Displaying results 1 - 28 of 28. http://www.rootschat.com/links/01lf5/
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I haven't got through all the links posted yet but just wondered if you noticed there is an empty house in Ballybeg in 1901
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai001322668/
This may be the house the family are in by 1911
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai003662492/
The numbers match but that as such doesn't mean much as they are only form numbers.
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Elizabeth's death
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1921/05091/4405009.pdf
Thanks,I apologise, I did have that and forgot to add it to the list. Its good to have a second pair of eyes coming up with the same record though.
I do have a supplementary question if you can help (I 'always' have supplementary questions as I am incurably nosey)
Here in England, a person can not/could not be buried (in a churchyard or a civil cemetary) without a death cert being produced.So I know that if a death was registered in a particular quarter of a year, then I have a 3 month time frame for the burial. If I have a specific death date, back then it was rareley more than a few days till burial.
I have noticed (and Elizabeth's death registration is a case in point) that civil registration in Ireland often may not occur till a good while after the death,
On that record Elizabeth died on 26th June, but the registration did not take place till 16th July. I really don't imagine that the funeral/burial would have been delayed for 3 weeks. Did the death cert production not apply to burials in Ireland then (or even now)?
Boo
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I haven't got through all the links posted yet but just wondered if you noticed there is an empty house in Ballybeg in 1901
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai001322668/
This may be the house the family are in by 1911
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai003662492/
The numbers match but that as such doesn't mean much as they are only form numbers.
No I hadn't noticed and thank you so much!
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai003662492/
That is the one for 1911 and the names etc do seem similar, I will look at in more detail tomorrow.
Tch! you'd think they would have left a note on the door that the enumerator could have transcribed into the schedule to say 'nipped to Aunty Mary's for a few days, be back soon"
They were, from what I can see in the records, still in the area between 1901 and 1911 -
and onwards.
Boo
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In the house and building return for Drummin there is a Patrick Walsh at number 9 but he doesn't appear in the search, a bit of page by page needed.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai001322588/
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Wicklow/Ballinglen/Drummin/
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I haven't got through all the links posted yet but just wondered if you noticed there is an empty house in Ballybeg in 1901
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai001322668/
This may be the house the family are in by 1911
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai003662492/
The numbers match but that as such doesn't mean much as they are only form numbers.
No I hadn't noticed and thank you so much!
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai003662492/
That is the one for 1911 and the names etc do seem similar, I will look at in more detail tomorrow.
Tch! you'd think they would have left a note on the door that the enumerator could have transcribed into the schedule to say 'nipped to Aunty Mary's for a few days, be back soon"
They were, from what I can see in the records, still in the area between 1901 and 1911 -
and onwards.
Boo
I like the 30 y.o. lodger here!!! ;D ;D
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Wicklow/Wicklow_Rural/Ballybeg/1817166/
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No there is no return for that Patrick Walsh, the house and building return is there twice which might explain the error.
http://www.irelandgen.com/tools/census_nav2.php?curl=http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai001322587/
There are 7 people living in the house, could it be them?
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Plus there is a forge at number 9
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai001322589/
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In the house and building return for Drummin there is a Patrick Walsh at number 9 but he doesn't appear in the search, a bit of page by page needed.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai001322588/
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Wicklow/Ballinglen/Drummin/
oh yes, thanks,my inexperience of these records means I hadn't thought of firkling round like that, have made a note of it for future firkling :-)
I am starting to wonder if they took a holiday and maybe the whole family nipped to Liverpool to pay a visit (missing both census enumerations in each country)? Patrick's brother, Edward, who had been in Liverpool for many years and recently had retired from his post as a Police Inspector was in the process of deciding to move back (temporarily, he was still there in 1902) to Drummin, where his 10th child was born in 1904 and back to Liverpool in time for the 11th one to be born in Liverpool in 1907. Its a straw to be clutched at anyway - I like straws that pass by:-)
Boo
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Plus there is a forge at number 9
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai001322589/
wowee, that is the icing on the cake! This is wonderful, even if they weren't home I do think that shows me where they 'should' have been if they were :-)
Thanks Sinann!
Boo
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I think they were there but the page got missed during the filming, two pages got turned over we've all done it at sometime, or when the film was put online the image was missed, it might be worth asking at Wicklow Heritage, where ever that might be I'm sure we can find it.
I know Kildare Heritage has images missing from 1911 for their area.
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This looks promising
http://www.countywicklowheritage.org/category/genealogy
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No there is no return for that Patrick Walsh, the house and building return is there twice which might explain the error.
http://www.irelandgen.com/tools/census_nav2.php?curl=http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai001322587/
There are 7 people living in the house, could it be them?
I think it may well have been them. By 1911 there were 4 of 9 children still surviving
I now (with help) have death records for two of the 5 who had died before 1911.
I am left with three to find
female born Feb 1884
Marianne/Mary Ann born December 1884
Catherine/Kate born August 1892 1890, sorry
Either one of those survived until after the 1901 census or there may have been an employee (as in the 1911 census) to make up the numbers to 7 (two parents 4 children I know were alive then plus one extra as yet unknown)
I'll document and record everything that people have so kindly helped me to find, look again for the deaths of the other three children and review it all.
But not tonight as I have a busy day tomorrow and have to call it a day now.
Thanks to everyone who has taken the time to help, it makes a huge difference :-)
Boo
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I like the 30 y.o. lodger here!!! ;D ;D
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Wicklow/Wicklow_Rural/Ballybeg/1817166/
he he, okay , he is yours, I have enough problems with the folk who have names!
Boo
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This looks promising
http://www.countywicklowheritage.org/category/genealogy
will try an email tomorrow to see if they can suggest any avenues to find a possible missing page.
Thanks again
Boo
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I like the 30 y.o. lodger here!!! ;D ;D
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Wicklow/Wicklow_Rural/Ballybeg/1817166/
he he, okay , he is yours, I have enough problems with the folk who have names!
Boo
;D ;D
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I feel like Alice, as this is getting curiouser and curiouser
Elizabeth declared on the 1911 census that she'd had 9 children, 4 of whom were still living. I have found birth register entries for 9 with matching details for parents.
Thanks to Sinann sharing the knowledge about firkling in the other forms than the missing household return, I looked at Form N, the enumerator's abstract.
That says there were 4 males -likely to be Dad, Patrick, and the three boys listed in 1911 - Michael, Edward and Patrick and 3 females - likely to be Mum, Elizabeth and Ellen listed on the 1911 plus one other not yet identified, possibly one of the three known girls born to this family who had died by 1911.
I am still looking for deaths for Female born Feb 1884, Marianne/Mary Ann born Dec 1884 and Catherine/Kate born August 1890 (not 1892 as I posted in error earlier, sorry)
So I searched for Walsh deaths in Shillelagh 1901 -1911
and came up with Katie, died 22 April 1903, at Drummin, informant Patrick Walsh, father, Tradesman, present at death, Drummin.
looked good for being the child born in 1890 till I saw that this child was aged 1 year and 6 months when she died!
Can't find a matching birth registration 1901-1903 to match the parent'snames/district I'd expect it to be registered in.
???
he he, I wish I'd just gone to bed!
Though I have sent emails to both the Wicklow Heritage Organisation and the National Archives of Ireland (who I think hold the originals of the census returns) asking if they can advise how I request to have this checked. May not get a result, but Granda always told me that shy bairns get nowt and its always worth asking :-)
Boo
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There is a site called RootsIreland (subscription) that have transcriptions of the Tomacork/Carnew parish records up to 1900.
Wouldn't help with Kate but should get you the name of Unknown.
As you know you can't ask for a look up for a subscription site but they do a 24 hour for €10.
If the requests for the census don't work out it might be worth considering.
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I believe I have found Marianne/Mary Anne’s death registration, by a roundabout route, but it feels right.
23rd May 1908 Wicklow People
a report on the Ballinglen Cycling and Athletic Sports Races - not usually my first port of call for a death notice but I looked anyway :-)
“At the last meeting all business was postponed as a mark of respect and sympathy with Mr Edward Walsh, a member of the committee, on the death of his sister Miss Marianne Walsh, in connection with which a vote of condolence was proposed by Michael Byrne, and seconded by John Doyle, and passed in silence.”
Nothing in the Shillelagh District but in Enniscorthy (where her Mum came from) there is a death register entry 14th May 1908, for a MaryAnne Walsh, aged 23, shop assistant. Informant was Nicholas Haughton (Haughton was her Mum’s maiden name), present at the death, Residence, St John.
Boo
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You have two left to find?
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There is a site called RootsIreland (subscription) that have transcriptions of the Tomacork/Carnew parish records up to 1900.
Wouldn't help with Kate but should get you the name of Unknown.
Thanks Sinann, I do have a sub (for a month) to that site and have used it a lot. I may be missing something obvious but why Tomacork/Carnew parish? Their home parish seems to have been Killaveney/Annacurra ?
Boo
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It is Kilaveney, not Killaveney which is in Tyrone.
Makes a big difference if you Google "Kenny Kilaveney" and "Kenny Killaveney"
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You have two left to find?
Prior to 1911, yes (though that death registration for a Katie in 1903 is really puzzling)
According to the info on the 1911 census, these two died before 1911.
Female born Feb 1884
Catherine/Kate born August 1890
Boo
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There is a site called RootsIreland (subscription) that have transcriptions of the Tomacork/Carnew parish records up to 1900.
Wouldn't help with Kate but should get you the name of Unknown.
Thanks Sinann, I do have a sub (for a month) to that site and have used it a lot. I may be missing something obvious but why Tomacork/Carnew parish? Their home parish seems to have been Killaveney/Annacurra ?
Boo
Often, the nearest Church can be in neighbouring Parish.
Where I live, the river is Parish Boundary, people on opposite side of river attend the Church in this Parish which is on bank of river.
Their Parish Church is 5 miles away!
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It is Kilaveney, not Killaveney which is in Tyrone.
Makes a big difference if you Google "Kenny Kilaveney" and "Kenny Killaveney"
I took the spelling (as I'd seen lots of different versions) from here
https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0568
Boo
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No problem!
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While not the names you are chasing....might be of interest??
"...This appears to be confirmed by the parish records of Walshes born in Kilaveney between 1831 and 1867 supplied to me by Kilaveney PP Fr Gahanin Dec 2005. Only one Pat listed, and he was born in 1854, the date indicated from his age on his gravestone. Unfortunately the
database names his father as JOHN, wife of Ann Kensheala, though this is an obvious error, as the records show a THOMAS Walsh and Ann Kenshala having a number of other children around this date. The witness on Patrick’s birth details is a JOHN Walsh, so this seems likely to have been a transposition in recording the details......"
https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=15&ved=0ahUKEwjT8ZLvxfrYAhXIKsAKHS12Dvw4ChAWCEIwBA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.corglancy.net%2Fwalshtree.pdf&usg=AOvVaw0bBbuiF-sl4qYGkBtCJlzv
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There is a site called RootsIreland (subscription) that have transcriptions of the Tomacork/Carnew parish records up to 1900.
Wouldn't help with Kate but should get you the name of Unknown.
Thanks Sinann, I do have a sub (for a month) to that site and have used it a lot. I may be missing something obvious but why Tomacork/Carnew parish? Their home parish seems to have been Killaveney/Annacurra ?
Boo
That's the parish I got when I looked up Drummin.
https://www.johngrenham.com/c_parish/c_parish_main.php?civilparishid=2703&county=&civilparish=Preban
See the panel to the side 'A summery for research sources for Preban' click on 5 Church Records and on the next page imaged online for the RC ones, but as hallmark said they probably went to the nearest church. Still might be worth checking Tomacork.
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That's the parish I got when I looked up Drummin.
https://www.johngrenham.com/c_parish/c_parish_main.php?civilparishid=2703&county=&civilparish=Preban
See the panel to the side 'A summery for research sources for Preban' click on 5 Church Records and on the next page imaged online for the RC ones, but as hallmark said they probably went to the nearest church. Still might be worth checking Tomacork.
Thanks, I did check it (I have actually checked every Wicklow baptism 1884 +/- a year, for Walsh, father Patrick) and still not found anything for this child:-(
Some things just remain a mystery for a while longer!
On the upside, I have found a snippet in the newspaper about Patrick's (the father) death :-) which helps to confirm my translation of the change of occupation description to 'Tradesman' from previously being recorded as Blacksmith.
3rd July 1909 (his death register entry says he died 28th June and described him as Tradesman)
<quote>
Blacksmith dies suddenly
During the week a blacksmith named Walsh, residing in Ballinglen, died under somewhat sudden circumstances, His relatives, it appears, on Sunday morning left him to look after the house while they attended at Mass at the neighbouring church. On their return it was discovered that the man had entirely collapsed, and priest and doctor were sent for. Both arrived with great promptitude, but the unfortunate man died shortly after their arrival, presumably from heart failure.
</quote>
Every tiny piece of info helps to confirm things :-)
Boo
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I think they were there but the page got missed during the filming, two pages got turned over we've all done it at sometime, or when the film was put online the image was missed, it might be worth asking at Wicklow Heritage, where ever that might be I'm sure we can find it.
I know Kildare Heritage has images missing from 1911 for their area.
I was in Kildare Heritage today getting a 1901 house and building return that is missing from the online census and I asked did they think Wicklow Heritage would have your missing return and they believed they should have it.
They were of the opinion all the locally held census reels are complete but there is a huge amount missing from the online census.
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Only one Pat listed, and he was born in 1854, the date indicated from his age on his gravestone.
I wonder if this is your Pat.....
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https://www.google.ie/maps/@52.8359748,-6.3965533,3a,75y,185.64h,81t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sUAzzIFZxCBBp-UTyYqkvKg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
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http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V2,707704,675878,6,7
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Elizabeth's death
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1921/05091/4405009.pdf
I do have a supplementary question if you can help (I 'always' have supplementary questions as I am incurably nosey)
Here in England, a person can not/could not be buried (in a churchyard or a civil cemetary) without a death cert being produced.So I know that if a death was registered in a particular quarter of a year, then I have a 3 month time frame for the burial. If I have a specific death date, back then it was rareley more than a few days till burial.
I have noticed (and Elizabeth's death registration is a case in point) that civil registration in Ireland often may not occur till a good while after the death,
On that record Elizabeth died on 26th June, but the registration did not take place till 16th July. I really don't imagine that the funeral/burial would have been delayed for 3 weeks. Did the death cert production not apply to burials in Ireland then (or even now)?
Boo
A Death Cert is a Death Cert. Used for Burials!!
Bringing a Death Cert to a Registry Office to have is registered is a different thing.
A death within the State can be registered with any Registrar, irrespective of where it occurs. Deaths must be registered as soon as possible after the death and no later than three months from the date of death.
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A Death Cert is a Death Cert. Used for Burials!!
Bringing a Death Cert to a Registry Office to have is registered is a different thing.
A death within the State can be registered with any Registrar, irrespective of where it occurs. Deaths must be registered as soon as possible after the death and no later than three months from the date of death.
Thanks, it is a different system (and teminology) in the UK.
A 'medical certificate of the cause of death' has to be produced and that must be taken to the registrar so the death can be registered and what we would term a "Death Certificate" would be issued. A burial/cremation can not take place until after registration and the correct paperwork has been issued.
You have 5 days in which to register a death with a civil registrar (in usual circumstances, any death reported to the coroner is exempt from the normal time constraints), though it can be registered in any registry office, if that office is outside the area in which the person died then that can delay the paperwork need for burial.
Boo
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Technically it is a Death Notification Form....signed by Doctor, that suffices for Burials!
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Only one Pat listed, and he was born in 1854, the date indicated from his age on his gravestone.
I wonder if this is your Pat.....
The Patrick I am looking at was baptised at Killaveney on 14th September 1850, parents were Michael Walsh and his wife Ann (nee Doyle). Griffiths has a Michael Walsh with a house and a forge at Drummin, in the parish of Preban.
The family on that tree may well be related (I don't yet know) but the link would be further back than this generation I am looking at.
Boo
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https://www.google.ie/maps/search/drummin+wicklow/@52.8186278,-6.4289548,14z?dcr=0
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thanks hallmark, I'd poked round the web and ascertained that Ballybeg and Drummin were not too far away (about a mile as the crow flies).
I've progressed quite well, and now have the barebones structure for Patrick's family. The 'female' birth registration in 1884 remains a mystery.
The death date is missing for Kate (born1890) and I still have that 'possible, but definitely in query' death register entry for a child of Patrick and Ellen, name of Katie. The death was registered in 1903 and the age at death on the register is 1 yr and 6 months. The one born in 1890 would have been about 12 years and eight months in 1903 and I do wonder if her Dad said she was 12 and a half and the registrar missed the 2 from the end of the 12 when he wrote it down. Odder things have happened :-)
The household return for 1901 would help to clear up the mystery - if she is on there then that can't be her death, but I have had no reply to my queries either from the National Archives of Ireland or Wicklow Heritage. Having been through the National Archives site, it seems that they don't supply copies of documents unless the customer turns up in person, so that is starting to look like a dead end.
I am pleased with the progress and very grateful for all the help I have received in here.
Boo
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I was in Kildare Heritage today getting a 1901 house and building return that is missing from the online census and I asked did they think Wicklow Heritage would have your missing return and they believed they should have it.
They were of the opinion all the locally held census reels are complete but there is a huge amount missing from the online census.
Thanks for enquiring Sinann, I did email Wicklow Heritage last week but so far no reply. Hopefully someone will reply when they have time. I am quite willing to pay for a scan/print/transcription if they can provide one.
Boo
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The household return for 1901 would help to clear up the mystery
Boo
I did the following search... gets all James 8 (+/- 5 yrs) only 2Walsh and both not yours.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01lgi/
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Yes, thanks hallmark, Sinann has established that Patrick is listed on the house and buildings return (along with a forge, which as he was a blacksmith is the clincher!) but that the household return has not been uploaded to the database.
If you search with no name specified, townland, Drummin and DED Ballinglen, no Walsh listed but click on any name in the results and view the house and building return you can see him on the last line.
Plus, I do believe that the unoccupied house on line 5, landowner Edward Walsh was his brother, who at the time was living in Liverpool and just about to retire and spend the next 5 years back in Drummin at his currently unoccupied house:-)
Boo
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Yes, thanks hallmark, Sinann has established that Patrick is listed on the house and buildings return (along with a forge, which as he was a blacksmith is the clincher!) but that the household return has not been uploaded to the database.
If you search with no name specified, townland, Drummin and DED Ballinglen, no Walsh listed but click on any name in the results and view the house and building return you can see him on the last line.
Plus, I do believe that the unoccupied house on line 5, landowner Edward Walsh was his brother, who at the time was living in Liverpool and just about to retire and spend the next 5 years back in Drummin at his currently unoccupied house:-)
Boo
Oops..... ;D ;D
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okay, I have just found another email address - this one for Wicklow Archives. Have tried emailing that one to ask if its possible to order a copy of the missing household return , if they have the relevant reels.
Fingers crossed :-)
Boo
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I was having a look as well, is this the one you used before
http://www.wicklow.ie/heritage-contacts
In Kildare there are rooms attached to the Library in Newbridge called Local Studies(part of that is Kildare Heritage) and you can go in there to see the Census but I can't find any thing like that in Wicklow.
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Thanks again Sinann, that isn't the one I used before, I found it on the Wicklow Heritage site (but now can't!) and it was a gmail address, which I thought was odd but what do I know?
and I did see the one you found earlier, but was unsure of the format of the email address (the coco.ie at the end just didn't look right for some reason)
I'll wait and see if the latest email generates a response. If not, I'll try that one but don't want to swamp them with duplicate requests.
I still may not get what I am after, they may not have the reels, but its worth a shot:-)
Boo
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Wicklow County Council Library Service Headquarters
http://www.wicklow.ie/library-contacts
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I had had a reply to my email to Wicklow Archives about the missing FormA for the 1901 census return.
The lady says they do hold copy films and she has checked them for me - but this return isn't on the film so it would seem it was missed from the filming rather than the upload to the census website.
So, it looks like a dead end. The National Archives have not replied to my enquiry and the information on their website says they will only supply copies of documents if I turn up in person. That's quite a journey for me so its not likely to happen.
Boo
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Oh that is a shame, at least they looked for you.
I'm never in Dublin so can't help out that way.
Only other thing I can think of is the possibility that when he's finished making corrections John Grenham may be kept on to add missing parts.
https://www.johngrenham.com/blog/2017/11/20/census-correcting/
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I feel like Alice, as this is getting curiouser and curiouser
Elizabeth declared on the 1911 census that she'd had 9 children, 4 of whom were still living. I have found birth register entries for 9 with matching details for parents.
Thanks to Sinann sharing the knowledge about firkling in the other forms than the missing household return, I looked at Form N, the enumerator's abstract.
That says there were 4 males -likely to be Dad, Patrick, and the three boys listed in 1911 - Michael, Edward and Patrick and 3 females - likely to be Mum, Elizabeth and Ellen listed on the 1911 plus one other not yet identified, possibly one of the three known girls born to this family who had died by 1911.
I am still looking for deaths for Female born Feb 1884, Marianne/Mary Ann born Dec 1884 and Catherine/Kate born August 1890 (not 1892 as I posted in error earlier, sorry)
So I searched for Walsh deaths in Shillelagh 1901 -1911
and came up with Katie, died 22 April 1903, at Drummin, informant Patrick Walsh, father, Tradesman, present at death, Drummin.
looked good for being the child born in 1890 till I saw that this child was aged 1 year and 6 months when she died!
Can't find a matching birth registration 1901-1903 to match the parent's names/district I'd expect it to be registered in.
???
and though its a long time after this thread was active I thought I would add in that I now believe that
the death register entry I found for Katie Walsh was copied incorrectly from the original book.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1903/05663/4594910.pdf
Though it clearly says she was 1 year and 6 months at death, I now have seen a photo of a gravestone which mentions her and says she died on 22nd April 1903 aged 12
http://www.igp-web.com/IGPArchives/ire/wicklow/photos/tombstones/annacurra-east/target41.html
SO though the death register entry online is signed as a true copy of the Registrar's Book of Deaths in the district of Tinahely (the original record) I reckon that the original may well have said 11 years and 6 months.
I won't hold it against Albert E Griffith, mistakes happen. I am just pleased that I have eventually been able to suss it out.
I may be slow but I am tenacious and hopefully adding this in to thread may save someone else having to tear their hair out over her :-)
Boo