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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Wicklow => Topic started by: Seany on Wednesday 31 January 18 03:54 GMT (UK)
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Hi there,
I've got a mysterious GG Grandmother, Annie Clark. She arrived in Australia from Ireland and married an Prussian man.
On her Marriage cert. It says she was born about 1849, from Wicklow, Ireland. Her parents being Charles Clark, a publican, and Catherine Talbot
I found a baptism for Ann Clark in Blackditches, Wicklow, Ireland 12 Aug 1850 with the parents Chas Clark and Cath Talbott
Other things on the cert were Parish Variants: Boystown, Valleymount. and Diocese: Dublin.
I think the might have left London to Melbourne in 1871 on the Malleny. She was a 20 yr old Irish girl. She traveled over as a servant in a group of 6. Robert Clark the eldest at 34, a miner, two male farmers aged 23, Ann, and two other servants with the name Smith. I'm not sure whether Robert Clark is an older bother, young uncle or a cousin. Maybe no relation?
I don't know anything else about her Parents, which would be nice to know more about them. I know there was a place called Talbotstown in County Wicklow back then. I don't have access to them, but there are 1852 land assessments there for a Charles Clark, and another for Richard Talbott. These were of the Parish Boystown.
I've found no marriage or birth certs of either Charles or Catherine, or whether they had any other children, or where they may have died. Does someone with more resources than I know what to do next?
Sean
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"....found a baptism for Ann Clark in Blackditches, Wicklow, Ireland 12 Aug 1850 with the parents Chas Clark and Cath Talbott...."
https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0465
parents being Charles Clark and Catherine Talbot you can Search for their Marriage and scroll through looking for Robert 14 years before Mary, maybe he is a brother...
Death results for Charles Clark 1800s ... http://www.rootschat.com/links/01lg0/
Don't see him in relevant districts for Wicklow
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the baptism for the 12th Aug 1850 is for John Clarke
left hand page
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633353#page/20/mode/1up
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BDM VIC death
1891 / 2961 SMITH Cath parents Clark Chas / Cath (Talbot)
died S Melb
Who did your Annie CLARK marry...when...where.
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Michael Clarke 4th March 1847
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633353#page/11/mode/1up
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the baptism for the 12th Aug 1850 is for John Clarke
left hand page
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633353#page/20/mode/1up
Yes indeed....
Always helps if people post a Link to whatever they are talking about!
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Hi there,
I've found no marriage or birth certs of either Charles or Catherine, or whether they had any other children, or where they may have died.
Sean
Have you looked??
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There are also some baptisms with parents Charles and Catherine Clark/e - no maiden name.
Eliza Clarke 5th Feb 1835
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633351#page/17/mode/1up
Michael Clarke 9th July 1836
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633351#page/20/mode/1up
Catherine Clarke 18th October 1837
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633351#page/26/mode/1up
If these are your family, it might give you a timeframe for the marriage and also looking at the frequency of these births, there would probably be several other children.
However, it is not certain the this Charles and Catherine are yours.
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I think this is the Marriage - names in Latin form
2nd September 1830
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633350#page/67/mode/1up
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Here is Griffiths Valuation list for Boystown which you mentioned.
http://www.failteromhat.com/griffiths/wicklow/boystown.htm
I think there was a witness Richard Talbot to the marriage and if you check the baptism sponsors, I think there was also a Judy Clarke. These names appear in GV but I haven’t checked back over the baptisms.
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Dathai.
12 Aug 1850
It seems you're right. The baptism you gave me was a print out of a transcript for the Ireland, Catholic Parith Register 1655-1915 from someone who used Ancestry unfortuntately. Well intentioned. Though it says Ann Clark here, when looking at the page it appears to be John Clark.
Her boat trip 26 Feb 1871 has her age 20, whereas her marriage cert 19 Aug 1871 has her age 22. So I made a leap of faith with the Baptism when handed to me.
Hallmark.
I've only looked with the resources I have. Which aren't much. familysearch and findmypast. I honestly didn't know about these nli registers? That's amazing.
Charles and Catherine Clark is not exactly a rare names.
The Clarks in the civil records are few and their ages don't quite reflect the age of someone havaing children in the 1850s. I'm not sure how often they ad the E to the end.
Catherine Clark there are a few people who might be. I made a shortlist, but they're all for people born 1820 onward, whereas heywood found a marriage cert for 1830, which destroyed this list.
It's unclear whether they stayed in Ireland, and left like their daughter did.
Wivenhoe.
That's a very interesting dead record..
It could be a coincidence. A Catherine Smith having a mother who is a Catherine Talbot. I don't see any Clark+Smith Marriages in Victoria.
Annie Clark married a Herman Schauer 1871 in Bendigo, Victoria. She later married another man in 1890 named John Davey Whose marriage cert I haven't seen yet. Ann passed away 1925 in NZ, whose death cert I haven't seen either. But I'm certain of this lady with other facts involving newspapers and children locations.
There was another Annie Clark living close Bendigo at the time too. I'll need to double check with those records.
On the boat which I've assumed Ann Clark aged 20 came out on, the writing is small but I think I make out Kate Smith 22 and Jane Smith 23. All three were servents. She's 10 years younger than the Catherine Clarke heywood mentioned in reply7.
heywood
I can't believe you found a marriage like that! Thank you so much. I feel as if this is the most likely marriage, even if it was hidden in latin. I had a shortlist of Catherine Clark deaths I was making using the Site Hallmark sent. but I assumed she was born no later than the 1820's
If Catherine married age 20 in 1830. She would have been nearly 40 by the the time she had Ann Clark. Which probably makes her one of the last children.
Your Valuation listing of boystown shows two Charles Clarkes. If I had to assume, It would be the one with Valleymount/cross as it matches the Parish Varient Valleymount that appears on Ann Clarks Baptism.
Back to the marriage. I'm interested in this Richard Talbot that appears in the Marriage register and valuations. He seems to be in the same area as Charles Clarke. Valleymount/cross.
With Judith Clarke. Though she's in Blackditches, so is a Mary. You mentioned you saw her name elsewhere on a Baptism sponsor?
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BDM VIC marriage
1858 / 1840 CLARK Catherine m. SMITH William
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With Judith Clarke. Though she's in Blackditches, so is a Mary. You mentioned you saw her name elsewhere on a Baptism sponsor?
Michael Clarke (1836) has Godparents Michael and Judith Clarke
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Dathai.
12 Aug 1850
It seems you're right. The baptism you gave me was a print out of a transcript for the Ireland, Catholic Parith Register 1655-1915 from someone who used Ancestry unfortuntately.
Yes, always be wary of stuff people use on their "trees"
Hallmark.
I've only looked with the resources I have. Which aren't much. familysearch and findmypast. I honestly didn't know about these nli registers?
No worries, saves other people's time if people have already looked.
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There's a lot to unpack here.
For starters. This Charles Clark and Catherine Talbot looks solid. But since my connection to Blackditches came from mistaken baptism of John instead of Ann. Which could unravel my connection to them.
That said. The Catherine Clark, daughter of a William and Cath Talbot living in the same part of Australia as Ann Clark is pretty compelling.
Thanks Wivenhoe for pointing that out. I looked up what I could on her. I couldn't find exactly where she married William, but I do know where her children where born. from public records
William Hopper Clark marries Catherine Clark in 1858 Like Wivenhoe said.
Catherine Smith dies 1891 in Melbourne suspiciously. There was an inquest. Her age was 54 (54 on the inquest, 55 in the paper) When she died. Making her birthdate about 1837. Same as the one in Blackditches. Though I won't be sure without looking at the birth cert.
I also found a Catherine Clark coming off a ship to Melbourne in March 1857. A single Irish girl aged 19. Who travelled with a Mary Clark, age 18. Assied by two single men whose names, different, I can barely make out, both age 20. There's a little chance. That makes this Catherine born about 1838
So these were the children I found.
- Robert b. 1863 Inglewood - d. 1863 Reed? (Cert 4358)
Jane b. No cert? - d. 1863 McIv (Cert 4356)
Jane b. 1865 Inglewood - m 1891 Robert Lockhart - d. 1934 (Parents William Smith & Cath Clarke)
Jacobinia - b. 1867 Sandhurst - m. 1887 John Smith 1886 - d. 1891 Caulfield (Age 23. Parents named William Hopper and Catherine Talbot) Said to be the 2nd Daughter.
Catherine - b. 1870 Emerald Hill - d. 1871 Emerald Hill
William - b. 1871 Emerald Hill
Albert - b. 1875 Emerald Hill
Alfred - b. 1877 Emerald Hill - M. 1901 Lousia Scott. - d. 1928 (Parents William Hopper Smith & Catherine Clark) Meant to be the 5th son? but He's the 4th I have?
George - b. 1880 - d. 1881
William Hopper Clark's Eldest Daughter Jane Hopper Smith "Jeanie" marries in 1891 to a Robert Lockhart. So it has in the local paper.
I'm confused as to this Jane, the eldest daughter? Robert and Jane Clark with the same parents died the same year, almost the same day if the Certs numbers are to be believed.
It could be that Robert and Jane were twins, and Jane was stillborn, so no Birth cert for her and Robert lived only a day, which gave time for there to be one more death between him and her. Maybe the 2nd Jane counted as his First Daughter.
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Hallmark
I did put a bit too much trust in the document I was given. It wasn't actually from a persons tree, but the transcribed text of the same document you showed me on Ancestry. At least, what Ancestry believed that document to say. A professional or computer would have made that mistake. Had you not shown me the document. I may have accepted it. Her birthday should fit between Michael 1847 and John 1850. Her marriage cert did put her birthdate about 1849. (Aug 1871. minus 22 years)
I want to contribute as much as I can, and no way take advantage all this great help you've given me so far.
I noticed the marriage cert had the names a John and Bridget Kelly as well as Richard Talbot on it.
I then saw a Thomas Kelly on Michael Clark's Baptism. I see Thomas is on the Griffiths Valuations too at Boystown or Baltyboys, Lower.
Heywood,
You said, Michael Clarke (1836) has Godparents Michael and Judith Clarke.
The 1836 Clark doesn't have Catherine's maiden name, whereas the 1847 one does. A reason to be 2 Michaels in the family. Perhaps this one passed away or from a different branch?
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Hi Seany,
It is difficult. I have only given you names from the records and I did write ‘if these are yours’.
With regard to two Michaels, it is a common occurrence that a later child is named after an earlier deceased child so that could be the case here - if they are the same family.
Lots of ‘ifs’ ;)
Heywood
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I am a bit confused now.
Are you still looking for Ann Clark with parents Clark/Talbot?
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Hi Seany,
It is difficult. I have only given you names from the records and I did write ‘if these are yours’.
With regard to two Michaels, it is a common occurrence that a later child is named after an earlier deceased child so that could be the case here - if they are the same family.
Lots of ‘ifs’ ;)
Heywood
Very common practice!!
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Hi there,
I've got a mysterious GG Grandmother, Annie Clark. She arrived in Australia from Ireland and married an Prussian man.
On her Marriage cert. It says she was born about 1849, from Wicklow, Ireland. Her parents being Charles Clark, a publican, and Catherine Talbot
I found a baptism for Ann Clark in Blackditches, Wicklow, Ireland 12 Aug 1850 with the parents Chas Clark and Cath Talbott
Sean
Sean... like others I'm getting confused!!
You did not find a baptism for Ann Clark in Blackditches, Wicklow, Ireland 12 Aug 1850 with the parents Chas Clark and Cath Talbott
So, has Ann Clark been found??
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I think it'll remain an ifuntil I take out Catherine's Marriage cert in Australia.
The information I began with came from her Birth Cert, looking for Charles Clark and Catherine Talbot from Wicklow that had an Annie Clark about 1849. That lead to a finding a certificate of an 1850 certificate for her with the same parents which upon reading the original turns out to be for a John, not a an Ann.
If Annie Clark isn't the 1850 child born in Blackditches. Maybe She's still their child, but hiding on the faded pages of the church papers? but I cant find her. Or maybe she's of another Charles Clark and Catherine Talbot out there in another Wicklow County. It's all so frustrating ???
It doesn't help that on page 18, there's a chunk missing where I think I can see the Someone born on the 25th or so. Completely faded. I think I read the words Kelly and Clark on that page? Am I seeing things? There are so many Clarkes in that town.
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633353#page/18/mode/1up
I don't know how I can narrow down which part of Ireland she if from if the Marriage cert is my best idea. Wicklow isn't exactly small.
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https://www.findmypast.ie/ is free until Feb 8th.....
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As per above - "Annie Clark married a Herman Schauer 1871 in Bendigo, Victoria. She later married another man in 1890 named John Davey Whose marriage cert I haven't seen yet. Ann passed away 1925 in NZ."
Ann Catherine Davey (formerly Schaeur and nee Clark) died in NZ 1925 record 1925/10598