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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: colmc on Wednesday 31 January 18 04:15 GMT (UK)
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Hi,
I have been having some trouble finding anything on my GG GM Mary Kerr's family. Her sister Grace Kerr was born in Scotland sometime between 1824 and 1831 and if I could get a hold of a record for that it would help a lot towards finding further records.
Their parents were Thomas Kerr (c1790-1864 ,Coast Guard before his death) and Grace McCollagh (c1793-1865)
Mary was born in Antrim around 1838-1841
I suspect there were other siblings that I am unaware of.
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Have you looked on Scotlands People?
www.scotlandsPeople.gov.uk
or Family Search
www.familysearch.org
What religion were the family?
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Hi couldn't find any children to Thomas Kerr and Grace McCollagh the closest I could see was a Margaret b 1823 in Belhelvie Aberdeenshire and Kenneth b 1825 also Belhelvie to parents Thomas Kerr and Grace McCulloch
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That is very close! What makes you think it's not the correct couple?
flst
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Thanks for the help everyone.
I haven't come across ScotlandsPeople before but i must register for it.
The four members i know of lived in county Mayo Ireland from some time before 1861 until their deaths and were Church of Ireland/Anglican in Mary's marriage record and a census in 1901 for Mary and Grace.
I dont know if the family originated in Scotland or Ireland and could have moved around a lot. I had suspected somewhere closer to Northern Ireland but the family in Aberdeenshire could be them.
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Wasn't sure if someone who was later a coastguard would be living in Belhelvie
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looks to be only about 3km from the coast, if I could find an old coast guard station nearby I'd really have something to go off
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if you download the 2 baptism records they may contain his occupation or other info that could help
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There was a Coast Guard station at Belhelvie in the 1820s so this is not impossible.
Thomas Kerr does not appear on the establishment book there :(
However, all is not lost. Where was he a coast guard later, please? If he can be found on the record, his previous postings can also be found by tracing him backwards through the records.
These Coast Guard records can be downloaded free from the National Archives as part of their Digital Microfilm project, but they are huge files.
Nell
Added: the Coast Guard station was near Leyton at Menie Links - now the site of Donald Trump's golf course. The former coast guard houses can be seen here:
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/613183
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Found him in Ireland.
Thomas Kerr was a boatman in the Coast Guard service from 1841. He was posted to Portlooe in Cornwall from the Revenue Cutter Shamrock in October 1841. He went from there to Dunbeg, Ireland, then to Ballywater, then Greenore, then Carlingford in 1844.
Need to do some more digging for the 1830s.
Nell
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I cant get the records for Margaret and Kenneth without upgrading or purchasing new subscriptions, will need to think on what is best to get.
Fantastic Nell!
The only info I had on him being in the coastguard was in his death record and his wife's death record. aside from Grace being born in Scotland and Mary in Antrim form census records, and the info on Mary's marriage, I had nothing - I was even lucky that the death record for Grace senior contained her maiden name and that my GG'GF was the informant on the 2 death records, and lucky that the younger Grace was in her sisters in the 1901 census. Really I had nothing for them before the 1860's and Thomas was around 70 by then.
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So are there any specific details on the places of birth on the census records that you have found? Is this Ireland or Scotland?
Nell
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My GG'GM Mary was born in Ireland in Antrim - different records suggest different ages so born between 1838 and 1841
her sister Grace was born in Scotland (that's all it says on the Irish census) and depending on the census or death record her year of birth is 1824 - 1831
I have no indication of place of birth for my GGG grandparents Thomas and Grace
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This article on the Irish Coast Guard site might interest you, gives a few deatils about the Shamrock.
https://www.coastguardsofyesteryear.org/articles.php?article_id=160
Margaret's baptism record gives no indication of Thomas's occupation. However, the couple lived at Pettens just inland of the dunes near Menie.
Nell
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Nell could you post a link for me to download the files - I almost feel they don't want me to find anything
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You state you need to upgrade or purchase new subscriptions to see the details of Margaret & Kenneth's christenings? Scotlandspeople is a pay per view site, no subscription needed! If these 2 cannot be found in the censuses they may have died before 1841. The old parish records are available to search on scotlandspeople.
regards
flst
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What about this family from Stranraer.
I can only find two kids in the IGI
Name: Thomas Kerr
Spouse: Grace Mcclure
Marriage: 19 Mar 1810, Stranraer, Wigtown, Scotland
Name: Elizabeth Hamilton Kerr
Birth: 10 Feb 1811, Stranraer, Wigtown, Scotland
Father: Thomas Kerr
Mother: Grace Mcclure
Name: Thomas Kerr
Birth: 05 Oct 1812, Stranraer, Wigtown, Scotland
Father: Thomas Kerr
Mother: Grace Mcclure
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I don't think this is the correct couple. The son Kenneth had a middle name recorded in his baptism Mcculloch (same as his Mother's maiden name). It's not Mcclure.
flst
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I don't think this is the correct couple. The son Kenneth had a middle name recorded in his baptism Mcculloch (same as his Mother's maiden name). It's not Mcclure.
flst
Fair enough.
It was worth a try.
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Also the 1811 birth seems a bit too far apart to be a sibling of Mary born around 1838-1841
I was just holding off on purchasing anything as a month subscription/upgrade elsewhere might be more efficient for roughly the same price - I'm cheap ;D
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buckhyne, that's the spirit :)
regards,flst
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colmc, that's okay. Just to let you know that scotlandspeople is the only place you'll get the original records. You can read more about researching Scottish records in the help topics here on rootschat. i did a quick search but couldn't spot any obvious Kerr family members in the births, marriages & deaths. It does not cost anything to do a search, only to view the full details.
Regards,
flst
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only other place I could find them was ancestry so just got the minimum credits - now to go see if I can find out anything more on Kenneth and Margaret
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Found a Kenneth Kerr in 1893 aged 68 (1825) in Mullaghmore Sligo (bordering county to Mayo) pensioner coastguard officer, and his son Thomas was present at death
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Sounds very promising! Well done :)
flst
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Nell could you post a link for me to download the files -
National Archives Digital Microfilm page:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/free-online-records-digital-microfilm/
Scroll down to the list of records available. Coastguard records are in ADM 175.
These are the references that I found:
ADM 175/006 p 477
N 7633 13 Oct 1841
Thomas Kerr nominated from Shamrock RC
Removed 17 Mar 1842 to Dunbeg 129 R3310
ADM 175/100
Thomas Kerr - Boatman at Portlooe
Removed 18 Mar 42 to Dunbeg
ADM 175/017 129 p208 (Dunbeg)
R3310 17 Mar 1842 ex Portlooe 229 Thomas Kerr Boatman Removed 29 Sept 1842 Ballywater 270 R 3974
ADM 175/017 p 411 (Ballywater)
R3972 29 Sep 1842 ex Doonbeg 129 Thomas Kerr Removed 29 Jan 1844 to Greenore 286 R 1316
ADM 175/017 286 p 446 (Greenore)
Removed 20 Nov 1844 r 1917 to Carlingford 305
They are only one line in the record of each establishment (files can be 300 - 700 pages long). I have not managed to trace him when he served on the Shamrock. The ship's records are not online, but at Kew. From this:
http://www.pbenyon.plus.com/18-1900/S/04228.html
it seems that the Shamrock was stationed in Ireland and the muster lists date from Jan 1825 - Jun 1845.
Thomas was pensioned 7 Sep 1857. I have found some more records from 1836 onwards this, but there seems to be some conflict with the other records (maybe I misread/misrecorded something last night):
ADM 175/18 p 203 Kilcorgan
1 Mar 1836 CGS Ballyvaughan?? Thomas Kerr Chief Boatman removed 4 Jan 1843 N I Aran
ADM 175/19 p 209 North Isle of Aran
R4181 4 Jan 1843 ex Kilcorgan Chief Boatman removed 9 Sep 1845 to Casleh bay
(Kenneth there as Commissioned Boatman 1850 removed 1851 to Lettermore)
ADM 175/18 p 197 Casleh Bay
If you are interested, Kenneth Kerr's naval record is here:
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D6611066
If you have a sub for ancestry it can be seen there, or you can download it from TNA for a fee. Many coastguards in the later 19th century can be found in the Naval records.
Nell
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Yes!! Found an entry in ADM 175/16 when he was appointed to Mellisle on 1 July 1826 from Belhevie, although I can't find him on the record there.
So I think that record for Grace is the one you are looking for.
Nell
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Well done Nell didn't think we would be able to connect the dots when I found the 2 baptisim records in Belhelvie
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That is fantastic Nell, it will all tie up.
I had some luck myself finding something for Kenneth born 8/2/1825 that says he deserted from Wellington NZ in 1860. He married Bridget Karney in Galway in 1844.
It seems Kenneth's son Thomas was born in Galway in 1849 and was also in the coast guard and there's something on this Thomas's family I found before. His son Kenneth was born around 1852 and was a lighthouse keeper, he also had 2 daughters that never married. Kenneth jnr married Emily Stevens-Sole - daughter of a lighthouse keeper - in 1880
I am hoping that when I order the marriage cert for Kenneth and Bridget there'll be no doubt left that they are the same family
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So I think that record for Grace is the one you are looking for.
I thought that would be the easy bit to get a lead on the rest, got so much now since asking I don't know where to turn ;D
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Found Thomas Kerr born 24/4/1819 to Thomas Kerr and Grace McCulloch. Baptised 27/4/1819...
....in Portpatrick..wow they got around.
Haven't been able to locate a picture of a Bold (or modified Confounder) class gun-brig but the Shamrock was one of 18 in that class. also briefly rated as brig-sloops. 2 × 6-pounder bow guns
10 × 18-pounder carronades, a crew of 60, and a 70 ft keel/84 ft gun deck. My pirate ancestors can't have liked that ;D
managed to download ADM_175/18 /19 & /100 some issue with downloading the others at the moment
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Found it! Problem was her name wasn't really Grace, tbh I can't blame her for changing it. :-X
Grizzal Kerr 25/6/1821 Portpatrick to Thomas Kerr and Grizzal McCulloch
Also found John Kerr born 1817 Portpatrick.
And the marriage of Thomas Kerr and Grizzel McCulloch - which I think might yet require a new topic to find someone that can read it :-\
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Portpatrick 27. February 1816
Thomas Kerr Mariner? and Grizzel McCulloch
of this parish - having had the benefit of -----
of banns in this church? upon --------------------
------------------------------ twenty seventh
day of December one February one
thousand eight hundred and sixteen years -------------------
John McKenzie DD minister of this place
extra sample from same records below
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Found it! Problem was her name wasn't really Grace
Grizel is an older form of Grace.
Ruth
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If you contact Scotlands People they will enhance the scan and send it to you in an email at no extra charge
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Thanks, when I've increased darkness and contrast I just end up with a smudged ink effect so I've messaged a request now, fingers crossed.
Had never heard the name Grizzel before, guess it is the equivalent of the Irish name Gráinne. I have also since found a baptism record for Grace McCulloch in Portpatrick 1793 (matching her age at death and place of marriage) - very likely to be my GGG'GM. Daughter of John McCulloch and Grizzel McCubbin
Still no joy downloading the other TNA files
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Found it! Problem was her name wasn't really Grace
Grizel is an older form of Grace.
Not quite.
Grizel/Grizzel/Grissell etc is a name in its own right, a form of Griselda, a name of Germanic origin and uncertain meaning - possibly 'grey war' or 'Christ war'.
Grace is an entirely separate name, from French, and means what it says.
Grizel and variants occur commonly in earlier years, but declined in popularity while Grace rose in popularity. In 1513-1799 there was one Grace for every 31 Gris/zel*s. From 1800-1899 there were 15 Graces for each Gris/zel*s and from 1900-2017 104 Graces for every Gris/zel*s.
However from around the late 18th century onwards it's quite common to find a person baptised as Gris/zel* being subsequently recorded as Grace. It seldom happens the other way round.
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It also looks like Thomas and Grace followed the naming pattern for their children so possibly Thomas parents were Thomas and Margaret
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It also looks like Thomas and Grace followed the naming pattern for their children so possibly Thomas parents were Thomas and Margaret
Could you explain the Scottish naming pattern please, I've heard of it before but don't know it.
They were born in order:
John, Thomas, Grizzel, Margaret, Kenneth, Mary.
Thanks Forfarian
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It also looks like Thomas and Grace followed the naming pattern for their children so possibly Thomas parents were Thomas and Margaret
Could you explain the Scottish naming pattern please, I've heard of it before but don't know it.
They were born in order:
John, Thomas, Grizzel, Margaret, Kenneth, Mary.
Thanks Forfarian
The Scottish naming pattern was
1st son named after parental grandfather (John)
2nd son maternal grandfather (Thomas)
3rd son father (Kenneth could be a brother of Grace Snr but couldn't see a baptisim to the parents mentioned)
1st daughter named after maternal grandmother (Grace)
2nd daughter paternal grandmother (Margaret)
3rd daughter mother (Mary ? maybe a sister of Thomas Snr )
not every one followed it and can be misleading if there are missing baptisims or parents chose not to follow it completely but it can offer clues to the parenage of the parents as you can see not strictly in the right order
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Thanks. It looks like Kenneths children and grandchildren all followed the same pattern but i'd need to confirm their maternal family names and all birth dates to be sure.
The third son had to be something other than Thomas anyway, Its possible there was an Isabelle before Mary --- There was an Isabelle Kerr born in Ireland on a Gedmatch DNA match's pedigree page that seemed the most likely connection, might not have been the connection, may have been a cousin rather than a sibling, and the assumed birth date for Mary could have me placing them in the wrong order - the match never replied to my email either.
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It is not unknown for siblings to have the sames name :) If their paternal & maternal grandfathers, for example, had the same Christian name!
flst
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Scotlandspeople done a brilliant job on that marriage image for me
National archives were also very helpful with the files I was having trouble with. I think the Thomas Kerr on the Shamrock and stationed at Portlooe-Dunbeg-Ballwalter-Greenore-Carlingford is another Thomas Kerr.
These files I have now add up, with records from 1832 to 1857 all around Galway Bay
(image for laziness)
It strongly suggests that my GG GM's baptism record will be found in the Donaghadee Co Down area between 1826 and 1832 - rather than Co Antrim as on census forms and earlier than she claimed
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I think the Thomas Kerr on the Shamrock and stationed at Portlooe-Dunbeg-Ballwalter-Greenore-Carlingford is another Thomas Kerr.
I think so too. I was coming to that conclusion as well when I started to put all my scribblings in the right order. Which makes it even more surprising that I found the right one in Belvelvie in 1826 by chance!
Nell
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Could turn out to be my great great granduncle yet