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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Sussex => Topic started by: KentishChris on Thursday 01 February 18 10:22 GMT (UK)
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Hello all :)
I have previously attempted to find out some information about my G-Grandfather, George Lamont Horn (born 1903). Unfortunately, I know very little about this side of the family, and when I set up a post a few years back, everyone encouraged me to get the certificates. About 3 years later (and a university degree), I have returned to this brick wall and have now got George's birth and marriage certificate. However, nothing adds up...
Birth Certificate: George Lamont Horn, born 9th December 1903 in Croydon. Father; William Nixon Horn. Mother; Violet Kemp Horn, formerly Thomson. William is listed as a Chemist.
Marriage Certificate: George Lamont Horn married Ellen Linfield on the 23rd December 1933 in East Preston, Sussex. They are both listed as 30 years old. He is a Butler, she a Cook General.
His father; John Horn (deceased), but listed as a Chemist. Her father; William Linfield (deceased) - Labourer.
Everytime I have attemped to go past George Lamont, I have found nothing. This has me more confused than ever when I opened the letter today so find that his father's first name is completely different on both certificates.
I have many questions and I'm hoping Rootschat members will be able to help!
Why is the father's names different? (but his profession appears to be the same)
I have done many searches for Ellen Linfield, but nothing has come up with her being born in 1903 or the years either side. She may have lied, I guess.
Why can't I find anything on the 1911 census for pretty much any of the names above?
I've done many searches to try and find if I have the wrong George Lamont, but there only ever appears to be one around the dates.
A bit more information: Violet Kemp Horn (George's mother), dies in 1946 in Geelong, Australia. I have her death certificate. She is listed as a Widow to William Horn, but with no issue (the staff in the home she appeared to live in may not have known she had children).
Any help would be amazing, and sorry for the bombardment of information!
Thanks in advance,
Chris
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Hi there
Have you already looked for:
George in 1911 to see whether he’s with parents?
George and Ellen in the 1939 Register to confirm her birthdate?
Violet’s emigration to Australia for any details that might contain?
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At his death (Hove, 1976), George Lamont Horn’s birthdate was recorded as 3 November 1903.
His wife seems to have gone by Margaret Ellen, with a birthdate of 15 May 1903, and died as Margaret Ellen Horn in Ashford, Kent, in Jun qtr 1978.
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There seems to have been a daughter who died (1988 Uckfield) as Mary Violet Booth with a birthdate of 29 January 1932 - born before the 1933 marriage.
She married as Violet M Horn to Stanley L Booth, Sep qtr 1954 Hove.
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Hi Chris
Hope you are now settled in Australia ;D
Not helping but there is a newspaper article Worthing Herald 28 August 1937
Lancing Woman charged with bigamy - man with aiding
It mentions George Lamont Horn & Nellie Margaret Maidment (They married June qtr 1938)
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Hello avm228,
Thank you for your reply!
I can't find George in 1911. He must be there somewhere, but I seem to go round and round with this search :(
I haven't looked at the 1939 register. I have Ancestry, do I need something else to access this?
Violet emigrates in 1922, on her own. From what I've worked out with the incoming passenger lists, she docks in Sydney and ends up in Melbourne. On her Victorian Death Certificate, it states that she had been in Victoria for 25 years, which adds up.
In regards to your find of the Margaret Ellen - I also found this and there are a few coincedences.
My family (that side), lived in Ashford, Kent at that time. Whenever I have asked about Ellen, they told me they always thought her name was Margaret (obviously this doesn't match up with certificates I have).
The birthdate also adds up that she would have been 30 when they got married, which it states on their marriage certificate.
Chris
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I have just read further down the very long newspaper article - it would appear that Ellen Linfield was a fictitious name given by Nellie Margaret when she married George Lamont Horn the first time
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Yes it seems Ellen Linfield never existed. She was Nellie Margaret nee Greenfield who had married Hubert Maidment in 1922.
However, she had formed a relationship with their lodger George Lamont Horn and had a daughter with him in 1932, and he knew of her true circumstances when they went through with the bigamous marriage in 1933 (they both pleaded guilty to this).
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Nellie’s father was William James Greenfield of Cootham, Storrington, who gave evidence at the trial.
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Wow! I have just signed up to the British newspaper, and am reading through this.
I never knew anything of this, and this would explain a lot of the mystery!
Would you then say that my grandfather's birth certificate that states his mother as Ellen Linfield, that it is in fact this lady? He was born in 1935, in Worthing,
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FreeBMD shows the mother’s maiden name on the 1935 Worthing birth as Lingfield rather than Linfield, but if you have that birth certificate and it shows the parents as George Lamont Horn and Ellen, then yes it does seem to be this couple - mother was actually Nellie Margaret nee Greenfield.
You can see the 1939 Register on Findmypast, but details of the child born in 1935 will be redacted. Search for George or George L Horn with the birthdate he apparently thought he had (3 November 1903) rather than the 9 December 1903 as you have found on his birth certificate (an odd discrepancy in itself).
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Tree on Anc. gives William Nixon Horn born Glasgow Scotland 15/2/1868
Married Violet in Jun 1896 Taltal Antofagasta Chile.
Jennifer
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William appears with his parents in Scotland census up until 1891.
Jennifer
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Tree on Anc. gives William Nixon Horn born Glasgow Scotland 15/2/1868
Married Violet in Jun 1896 Taltal Antofagasta Chile.
Jennifer
The marriage certificate is here, you may need to register for familysearch but it's free
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q2HM-QZT9
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So William was a son of George Horn and Mary nee Nixon.
Violet was a daughter of Robert Thomson and Agnes nee Aitchison.
Both bride and groom were Scottish.
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Violet K. Thomson, 25, nationality Scotch, sailed Liverpool-Valparaiso on the SS Gulf of Trinidad, departing 27 April 1896.
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I've just read through the article! Unbelievable. Bit blown away at the moment!
That would be my tree. Although I have done research on a few generations up, I have only the birth certificate to link the two together (yes, not fantastic research and no proof whatsoever, but I was hoping to find more information from doing it, but failed!).
I am still confused with the name difference of William Horn on birth certificate and John Horn on marriage certificate. His birth date is the 3rd November (not the 9th December, my mistake!).
Thanks
Chris
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Violet appeared to travel to Taltal, Chile to meet up with William Horn, who was there for work. She appeared to return to Scotland, and then travelled to Australia, but there is no mention of him after the marriage.
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I've just read through the article! Unbelievable. Bit blown away at the moment!
That would be my tree. Although I have done research on a few generations up, I have only the birth certificate to link the two together (yes, not fantastic research and no proof whatsoever, but I was hoping to find more information from doing it, but failed!).
I am still confused with the name difference of William Horn on birth certificate and John Horn on marriage certificate. His birth date is the 3rd November (not the 9th December, my mistake!).
We now know that they told plain lies at the 1933 “marriage” ceremony (which in fact was void for bigamy).
However it will be worth following up the Horns after his 1903 birth to see whether he grew up with his father. Sometimes discrepancies as to paternal details are genuine errors where the person did not know their father for long (due to bereavement or estrangement at an early stage).
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Very true avm228!
Also, I have found a marriage on freebmd, for a Nellie M Maidment and a Horn, in July 1938. Does this mean that this was them getting married legally?
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Very true avm228!
Also, I have found a marriage on freebmd, for a Nellie M Maidment and a Horn, in July 1938. Does this mean that this was them getting married legally?
Looks like it. There must have been a divorce, as Hubert Maidment also remarried (1940, Worthing). However many divorce files as late as the 1930s don’t survive, and I didn’t find a relevant one in the National Archives catalogue.
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Very true avm228!
Also, I have found a marriage on freebmd, for a Nellie M Maidment and a Horn, in July 1938. Does this mean that this was them getting married legally?
Not sure whether you know that on FreeBMD if you click on the page number (which is highlighted) you get the full list of names on the page, including the corresponding spouse. :)
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Mrs Violet K Horn (29) sailed Valparaiso-Liverpool on the Oropesa, arrivng 16 March 1902.
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Thank you all for your help!
A few updates...
William Nixon Horn, got his job in Chile as a chemist. He was originally from Greenock, Scotland. Violet joined him in to get married. After 2 and half years, she returned to see her mother in Scotland. Nearly 2 years later, she returned to William to find he had turned to alcohol. In 1901, he had "lost his situation" (I'm not quite sure exactly what this means). They sailed home, where he left Violet in Valparaiso, Chile. Once she had sailed home (1-2 months), she discovered he had already left and was apparently in Fremantle, Australia. Divorce granted in 1906.
The dates don't appear to add up. He apparently sailed in October 1901, she sailed in December 1901. She then discovered that he had sailed again in 1902 to Fremantle Australia, meaning that it would be unlikely for William to be George's father (he was born 3rd November 1903), even though he is listed on the birth certificate.
She could have lied to get the divorce granted, but that seems strange as there doesn't appear to be any other marriage or children.
I still can't find George in 1911.
I looked up the 1939 register, and George is listed with Margaret Ellen (how many times did she need to change her name!!!), alongside Violet Mary Booth (born 1932) and one that I cannot see. I assume this is my deceased Grandad, born 1935.
He has W.C next to his name (I do not know what this is?), and on his notes it says, Merchant Navy, although I have found no other records to go along with this.
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I think the W.C is part of name of the record above.
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There must have been a divorce
The Times, 8 Feb 1938
Law Report Feb. 7
Probate, Divorce and Admiralty Division
Before Mr.Justice Henn Collins
The decrees nisi in the following 167 Matrimonial Causes were made absolute...
Maidment v. Maidment and Horn
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In 1901, he had "lost his situation" (I'm not quite sure exactly what this means).
It means he'd lost his job, fired probably.
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There is a tree on line with a child born 1935 is this your tree?
Jennifer
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The daughter of the Maidment marriage seems to marry in Hove in 1945 (Irene M. A Maidment)
Jennifer
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Hello,
Thank you for the responses!
Something bad must have happened out in Chile for him! I still haven't found any real evidence for him after this time period.
Jennifer - I would assume that is my tree.
Thanks
Chris