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Some Special Interests => Heraldry Crests and Coats of Arms => Topic started by: Taylor94 on Thursday 01 February 18 19:31 GMT (UK)
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Hi
What would be the best way to get a coat of arms coloured from visitation?
I've tried using drawshield and putting the arms separately but it doesn't quite work.
As far as I have researched, my Mountfort family's last full CoA is listed on the visitation of Warwickshire without colour and I cant find it anywhere else coloured or of the full CoA.
The Anglo/Norman 'Mountford/Mountfort/de Montfort family of Montfort sur Risle' came across during the Conquest and traditionally the arms of the family have been a varying amount of Bendy Or and Azure. It seems somewhere along the lines it was changed to Argent and Azure Bendy.
Some people sometimes get mixed up and list the French 'de Montfort of Montfort L'Amaury' coat of arms for this family but this is incorrect as this family entered England fully by way of Sir Simon de Montfort 6th Earl of Leicester and appear to be an unrelated family.
Interestingly my Ancestor Sir Peter de Montfort of the House of Montfort sur Risle was slain alongside Sir Simon de Montfort of the House of Montfort L'Amaury at Evesham 1265.
I feel if I do colour it I might not get the colours correct.
I will attach the visitation page.
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Here is a colored version of the arms from the image you uploaded, colored in according to the blazon given there.
I hope that this is helpful.
David
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Thank you very much for this David, Nice to see if finally in colour.
My 10th grt grandmother was Susanna Mountfort, Daughter of William Mountfort Esq who was the younger son of William Mountfort Esq Lord of Bescot.
Susanna married George Clarkson in the 1630s and since then the Mountford name has been passed down as a First name and as Middle name, My 8th grt grandfather was Mountfort Clarkson and I currently have it as my middle name.
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Here's a go from me I did yesterday - pracitising with a new piece of software I've just got! Not sure you'd want it, but thought I'd post it anyway.
Not awfully clear from the visitation if the fleur de lis on the 3rd quarter are black (sable), along with the crosslets fitchee. It also doesn't give a colour for the fess on the 4th quarter.
You don't have any other image do you? Sometimes even a black and white image can have 'hatching' on it from which you can infer the colours.
As far as any exact information, you could contact the College of Arms.
www.college-of-arms.gov.uk
They will do research etc. Very expensive and don't hold your breath! I've been waiting over a months now for a reply to a query I asked. :(
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Not awfully clear from the visitation if the fleur de lis on the 3rd quarter are black (sable), along with the crosslets fitchee. It also doesn't give a colour for the fess on the 4th quarter.
"In blazoning a Coat of Arms in which two or more Charges of the same Tincture immediately follow each other in the Blazon, it is not necessary to mention the tincture until all the Charges of such Tincture have been specified." (John E. Cussans, Handbook of Heraldry, 1882, p. 161)
In this case, yes, both the fleurs-de-lis and the crosses crosslet fitchy in the third quarter are "sable," and the fess in the fourth quarter is the same "argent" as the crosses crosslet by which it is surrounded.
David
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Thank you very much for your version aswell, What software are you using?
I have heard about contacting the College of Arms but I know they can be quite expensive.
As far as I know this is only featured on the visitation and I think is the last coat of arms used by the Mountforts of Bescot as the male heir line dies out in 1672 I believe.
Im not sure when this CoA was adopted. I think I'm correct in thinking the other 3 arms which are featured are ancestral families linked to Mountforts?
Off the top of my head The 1st arms Bendy are the Mountfort arms, The amount of Bendy vary and colours change from Or and Azure to Argent and Azure over time. I'm not sure of the 2nd arms. I think the 3rd arms are representing the De Clinton family which the Mountforts descend from twice. I think the 4th arms are representing the Hillary family which is how the Mountforts acquired Bescot through descent.
Im sure to be corrected here but I think I read somewhere that 3 lions were only on a Coat of Arms if the family laid claim to Royal descent? I'm not sure if that is correct though but through the de Clinton family the Mountforts descend from King Henry II and through the Willington family they descend from King John.
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Thanks for the clarification of the colours david.
As for the 'escocheon of pretence', as it's written on the visitation - ie the 'sheild' in the middle, this is from wikitionary
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/escutcheon_of_pretence
Used when the wife was an heiress it seems.
Software is an old version of Photoshop (but new to me) - but then I have a very old computer! :)
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An updated version with black fleur de lis in the 3rd quarter, and more silvery lions in the escutcheon of pretence.
Gosh this is fun!
Do you know if the tongue of the lion's head Crest would have been red David? It doesn't say 'langued gules' in the description? Perhaps it should be blue really, as no other colour is mentioned apart from the azure?
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Thank you for clearing that up goldie.
I've found that the visitation lists the armourings
1.Mountfort
2.De Clinton of Coleshill (I thought this would be 3 given the crosslets)
3.Bereford
4.Haversham?
'Escutcheon of Pretence, Fowler?'
This is interesting as Ive not come across the Bereford or Haversham families yet prior to 1619 the year visitation was recorded.
Whats also interesting is that whoever supplied the visitation in 1619 started the pedigree at my 12th grt grandfather William Mountford Esq Lord of Aldridge and Bescot B.1555 D.1610 who married Anne Fowler Dau of Brian Fowler of St Thomas, Staff (She isn't given as an Heiress but escutcheon is wrote for Fowler?)
Whoever supplied the pedigree in 1619 didn't list the current lord Mountfort of Bescot or list the Children of William and Ann. My 11th grt grandfather William Mountfort was alive and so was his older brother Sir Edward Mountfort the current lord of Aldridge and Bescot in 1619 I believe. Edward marries an Elizabeth Brown so no sign of Bereford or Haversham unless these names are further back on the Mountfort line but not that I know of. My William marries an unknown Margaret but I doubt his marriage would affect the CoA given as he was the younger son.
So seeing as the pedigree stops at William and Anne, the CoA would have been used by him and the escutcheon seems to have been added when he married Anne Fowler
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Do you know if the tongue of the lion's head Crest would have been red David? It doesn't say 'langued gules' in the description? Perhaps it should be blue really, as no other colour is mentioned apart from the azure?
The general rule of thumb is that unless specifically blazoned otherwise, the tongue (and eyes and claws) are red, except when the lion (or other animal) or the background it is on is red, in which case the tongue and eyes are blue.
You can see an example of this latter in the Royal Arms of Great Britain, where the golden lions on the red quarter and the red lion in the golden quarter generally have their tongues, eyes, and claws in blue.
David
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I'm sure to be corrected here but I think I read somewhere that 3 lions were only on a Coat of Arms if the family laid claim to Royal descent?
That is only true if the field is red and the three lions passant gardant are gold (that is, if it is the Royal Arms of England). Here, we have a black shield with three lions passant (but not gardant), and they are crowned. It's not the same arms as England, and is not a claim of royal descent.
David
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Thank you very much for clearing that up David.
A look at the Norfolk visitation gives Roger Fowler's (Anne Fowlers grandfather) family arms as 'Azure, on a chevron argent, between three lions passant-guardant or, as many crosses moline gules'
So the Fowler arms to an extent seem to have been added to the Mountfort arms and Anne herself as an Heraldic Heiress.
It also seems that when William dies, the older son inherits both his fathers and Mothers fathers arms and quarters them so I'm thinking a quartering of Bendy Argent and Azure then Three lions passant-guardant.
I can add the Red tongue at some point I'm sure, Unless Goldie wanted to put up an edited version of theirs :)
Thank you all for your help.
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Thanks for clearing up the colours for tongues, claws etc David.
Here is a red-tongued lion! :)
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I've managed to find the Children to William Mountfort Esq and Ann. My 11th grt grandfather William and his brother Sir Edward are listed on the Visitation of Staffordshire. It seems Edward being the Heir didn't Quarter the arms listed in the Warwickshire Visitation. Who ever supplied to the heralds (I'm assuming Edward did as he was the Current Lord of Bescot) is using the standard arms of Mountfort/Montfort which is a varying amount of Bendy. He also seems to have supplied a different crest. I assume to denote his branch?
My 10th grt grandmother is also listed on visitation Susanna Mountfort who marries my 10th grt grandfather George Clarkson.
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Hi MrDudley. I see that we are both descendants of George and Susannah Clarkson. George being my 8th Great GF.
I would love to be able to chat to someone about the Mountfords and Clarksons so would be pleased if we could chat direct in some way.
Regards, Allan
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Hi Thomas.
For some reason I can't reply to your message so have to post here.
I am directly descended from George Clarkson and Susannah Mountford and I am still a Clarkson some 11 generations later.
If John the convict is the one that went to Australia, no I haven't proved a connection yet but there must be one.
I would love to chat more.
Regards
Allan
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Allan your email address has been removed because it is never safe for you to publish your private details on the internet.
Now that you have made 2 post you can now access the private message function.
Regards
Sarah :)