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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: ryan37 on Monday 05 February 18 20:32 GMT (UK)
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trying to fill in a family tree and want to ask anyone opinion if i have the right the people
john carr (30) was married to my great grandmother mary eliza simpson (18) marriage 21-9-1915
at buckie farm, peterhead, making johns birth around 1885?
johns parents listed as alexander carr and bridget carr m/s chalmers (deceased) on wedding cert
they had a son william fowlie simpson carr born 1916 died on 27-9-43 - serving in indian theatre of war
birth cert for john carr found , born may 16th 1885, but is this the correct person? as father is william carr and mother is bridget carr m/s carr rather than chalmers mentioned in johns wedding cert date mentioned of parents wedding is 1879 parish of bonhill
i have found a marriage for a william carr (22) and bridget carr (19) dated 7th october 1878
at alexandria parish of bonhill
williams parents noted as Denis Carr deceased and Mary Carr m/s mclafferty
bridgets parents noted as james carr and mary carr m/s mclaughlin
i cant seem to find a record of death for john carr and am a bit confused with the chalmers in bridgets m/s at johns wedding
do you think i have the correct people?
and can anyone go back further or with more detail
many thanks
ryan
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just noticed an error johns father is alexander rather than william this making this even harder to solve
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What information does it give on the marriage for John Carr and Mary Eliza Simpson is the address for both at Buckie farm Peterhead ..Were any of the witnesses a relation ?
What was John's occupation ? I do see a John Carr on the 1901 Census in Bonhill with a William and Bridget Carr occupation for this John is printfield worker
Rosie
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There at several trees online with a John Carr birth date 30 May 1885 Bonhill
Parents William Carr and Bridget Carr ....This John Carr was married to a Margaret Dolan
Rosie
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Hi Rosie will get in contact the tonight my info is not with me at work thanks for your input il send info this evening
Ryan
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What i Know about John Carr so far
marriage to mary eliza simpson was on 21st september 1915 at buckie farm peterhead
john is a merchant seamen age 30 - private 3rd batalion gordon highlanders
usual residence is Henderson's Wynd Dundee previously stationed at Stobs Camp
marys age is 18 - residence is buckie farm peterhead
parents of john are Alexander Carr (bricklayer)
Bridget Carr m/s chalmers (deceased)
witness is william m cowie
and barbara simspon which i believe is an aunt of mary eliza simpson, which is her mother helen's younger sister i think
next info is
a birth cert for a son of john and mary eliza
william fowlie simpson carr
born april 24th 1916 at buckie farm boddam which is a village near peterhead
his father is john carr - seaman - 28766 pte
int carr btm royal scots
mother mary eliza carr
ms simpson
married on 21st september 1915
so i notice mary eliza would have been expecting the baby before marriage
i have a marriage cert for her second marriage to james smith ( my great grandfather )
its fairly quick in relation to first marriage as its august 3rd 1920 just short of 5 years betwwen first and second marriage
only other thing i can add is her son william fowlie simpon carr was killed in september 1943 in burma serving in the indian theatre of war
i have seen a wedding cert for john carrs parents and it seems same people as iisted on first marriage cert
but i would like to find out john carr's exact date of birth and death and if he had any siblings
and possibly info on his mother bridgets birth and death
and same for father
many thanks ryan
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Was this a first marriage for John Carr ?..there is a John Carr born 1877 Dundee a different birth date from yours his father was Alexander Carr occupation bricklayer mother Betsy Chalmers ..
This John was married to a Georgina Glen she died 11 June 1915 and he was also a seaman in the Gordon Highlanders if you send me a PM I will forward you her death certificate .
There is a good chance this is your John
Rosie
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When John married in 1915 he stated he was 30, his bride being just 18. My gut feeling is that he was actually older than 30!
Alexander Carr married Betsy Chalmers in 1870 - In 1891 the family are in Dundee, and Alexander is a bricklayer. However, whilst they did have a son John he was born in Dundee ca.1877/78!!! On other records wife appears as Betsy but in 1891 she is shown as Bridget. As Betsy Carr she died in 1912. Alexander himself died 6/3/1920, bricklayer, widower of Betsy Chalmers.
So, I'm assuming that John had chopped a good few years off his age when he married his 18 year old bride, as he should have been 37/38! This could be why you've had problems finding his death. I suspect he was probably killed in WW1.
Annette
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Annette exactly what I was thinking... I think getting the marriage for John Carr and Georgina Glen
1898 Dundee would be worth while
Rosie
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Wonder if this is him
John Carr Residence Peterhead
Enlisted Dundee
Death 23 August 1918 France and Flanders
Killed in action
Private The Royal Scots Lothian Regiment
7th Battalion
Regiment number 302811
Former S/7540 Gordon Highlanders
Rosie
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Awesome work folks where did you find info on his death ?
I’m very grateful for your efforts
Ryan
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Yes it is him Uk Register of Soldiers effects mentions his widow Mary E
And his daughter Margaret G this is the daughter born to Georgina Glen
Rosie
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Ryan will be in touch tomorrow with certificate
Rosie
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His widow is Mary E from Soldier effects so think he's the right one
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Many thanks hear you tomorrow thanks to everyone for their hard work in solving this - well done
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Hes listed on the memorial at Vis En Artois as he was one of the many soldiers with no known grave
You can download his memorial certificate from commonwealth war graves here https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/1740815/carr,-john/
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There is a good chance this could be the birth record for John Carr 1878 St Clement Dundee might be worth while viewing going by the 1881 census that was the district they were in
1881 Census address 12,Nethergate St Clement Dundee
Alexander Carr age 40 born Errol Perthshire occupation brick layer
Betsy Carr age 33 born Dundee
Alexander Carr age 10
David Carr age 8
Jessie Carr age 7
John Carr age 4
Jane Ann Carr age 1
1891 census address 5,Blinshall Street St Mary Dundee
Alexander Carr age 50 bricklayer
Bridget Carr age 40
David 18,Jessie 16,John 13,Jane Ann11,Charles 9,James 7,Andrew 5,Thomas 3
1901 address 139,Overgate St Mary Dundee
Betsy Carr Chalmers age 49 bricklayers wife
Charles 18,James 17.Thomas 12
This looks like her husband Alexander Carr age 61..bricklayer lodger although his birth place is down as Glasgow
1901 address 87,Overgate Dundee
Rosie
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Forgot to mention this one for John Carr
1901 address 24,Session Street Dundee
John Carr age 23 { jute tenter }
Georgina Carr age 23 ( jute spinner )
Maggie Carr age 2 ( birth for a Margaret Glen Carr 1899 St Andrews Dundee )
This Margaret Glen Vogan
Margaret Glen Carr
Dies on the 21 March 1951 Royal Oakland Michigan
Birth date 28th November 1899 Dundee
Border crossing records mention a brother John Carr in Melbourne Australia
John Gerald Carr birth date 7 September 1910
Death 1976 Victoria Australia
Father John
Mother Georgina Glen
John Carr immigration record departure London 30/9/1926 age 15
He is travelling with his aunt Mrs Jane Ann Anderson and her family address 7,East Henderson Wynd Dundee ...
Think this will keep you busy for a while
Rosie
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hi been looking through all the great info
think i have come upon something i need help with
this is regarding john carrs father alexander
going by 1851 census alexander is 6 years old making his birth around 1845? although i cant find a certificate , but his mother is listed as Janet Carr ,no mention of Father
i have found a marriage cert for alexander in 1870 parents are John Carr - Blacksmith
(deceased) and mother Jessie Ferguson previously Carr M/S Robb
but then im confused as alexanders death certificate 1920
his parents are john carr- Ploughman (deceased) and Margaret Carr m/s Brannon (deceased)
this seems strange being 2 different mothers mentioned?
so who is the real mother ?
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Who registered Alexander death as death certificates can be notoriously wrong I would reasch Janet/Jessie Carr see who she married in case any of the surnames match
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There's a marriage of a John Carr and Janet Robb 1825 in Kilspindie Perthshire and they have at least 4 children between 1825 and 1832 in Kilspindie no Alexander
Couldn't find a marriage for a John Carr to Margaret Brannon
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I have found the wife of John I Think she died as Janet Ferguson age 58 on June 1st 1866, born around 1808 by looks of it ,
At time of death she is listed as Janet Ferguson ( pauper )
Listed as widow of John Ferguson - farm servant , her parents are John Robb and Elizabeth Robb ,
What I can’t work out she was listed at her sons wedding in 1870 as Jessie Ferguson previously Carr , m/s Robb
Her husband John is deceased but no mention she is although we know she died in 1866
Then at Alexander’s death in 1920 parents are John Carr - deceased and Margaret Carr - deceased
But in 1851 Alexander is living with mother Janet who is a widow ?
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I have found the wife of John I Think she died as Janet Ferguson age 58 on June 1st 1866, born around 1808 by looks of it ,
At time of death she is listed as Janet Ferguson ( pauper )
Listed as widow of John Ferguson - farm servant , her parents are John Robb and Elizabeth Robb ,
What I can’t work out she was listed at her sons wedding in 1870 as Jessie Ferguson previously Carr , m/s Robb
Her husband John is deceased but no mention she is although we know she died in 1866
Then at Alexander’s death in 1920 parents are John Carr - deceased and Margaret Carr - deceased
But in 1851 Alexander is living with mother Janet who is a widow ?
Ryan I don't think this is your Janet I think this Janet and John married in Longforgan in 1832 which would mean Alexander would be Feguson not Carr
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I think it is possibly the right people as her son is listed in 1851 as Alexander age 6 in 1841 her husband John is mentioned living with them , so sometime
Between census he has died , then I think she has married another man John Ferguson who is mentioned at her time
Of death, ? I saw on find my past website that in 1851 she is a widow , but on ancestry census that is not included john the father is not listed , moving on to 1861 census Janet is mentioned to be wife of John Ferguson she was born Perthshire there are 2 children a Janet and a Robert born around 1846 and 1848 respectively ,
Had something happened to her original husband John and she moved onto another man later in life ?
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There's a family tree on Ancestry which has Alexander and Betsy Chalmers with children including John married to Georgina Glen with the 1851 census if you search for the deaths of Carrs with mothers ms Robb one record comes up that of Charles the 8 year old in the census in 1862 in St Martins in Perthshire might be worth getting to check what it has for his mothers name and who registered it
There is a comment on this tree the owner is the grandchild of John and Georgina through their son John
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It may be the person that registered the death for Alexander Carr gave the wrong information which happens a lot ...
Rosie
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so assuming the wrong person is named on alexanders death cert - 1920 (mother recorded as margaret carr)
it must be the right alexanders cert as his late wife is mentioned as betsy chalmers
but his mothers name is different on marriage cert
- his marriage it states in 1870 marriage that parents are john carr -blacksmith deceased and mother being jessie ferguson previously CARR, m/s Robb
in 1851 census alexander is age 6 birth being around 1845 which make sense with death cert of age 78 in 1920 approx birth 1842 his mother is janet carr county of perthshire , no father mentioned in household
but back to 1841 census father john is mentioned birth around 1809 age 32 and wife janet age 30
so between 1841 and 1851 john seems to have disappeared
found some info but in 1861 There is John Ferguson and Janet mentioned county of perthshire janets birth around 1809 age 52 and john age 41 with children janet and robert age 15 and 13 this make dob around 1846 and 1848 respectively
the 1871 census states janet age 60 this makes me realise i think i have the wrong janet as i think i have a death cert for janet and she is listed as 58 years at death and is around 1866
i will post the cert i have
do you think the cert is the right person
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I have just came in so will have a look tomorrow and get back to you
Rosie
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Ok folks going back to basics
We know by the 1841 census there is a john carr and a Janet Carr address Petrodie Village
John age 32 born Perthshire DOB 1809
Janet 30 born Perthshire DOB 1811
Jean 14 DOB 1827
James 6 DOB 1835
John 3. DOB 1838
The Alexander is not born yet
Onto 1851 census
Janet is head age 43 DOB around 1808
No mention of john but same info on find my past website suggests she is a widow
Same address as previous census - Pitrodie village
We now have a son Andrew mentioned
Janet 43 (mother)
Andrew age 25 making DOB 1826 so minus the 10 years in census time was Andrew already out working in last records then moved home
Jean is not mentioned but again with a similar age to Andrew by 1851 she may well be out of household as she is 24
James is 15 - this adds up to last census
John is 13 - this adds up to last census
Charles Carr is 8 making him a new edition as far as census goes making DOB 1843
Alexander Carr is 6 making him another new edition with DOB around 1845
A lodger names charles (chas) Keir is mentioned with age of 22
So what happened to john as his last son is born around 1845 and he is not on the census in 1851
Alexander’s DOB ties in with death cert I have for him death in 1920 he is 78
Making DOB 1842/1843 I cant find birth certificate for him
But is the death the right one as it mentions his widow Betsy chalmers
Parents are john carr - ploughman deceased and mother Margaret Carr m/s grannon
This is the mystery did john Carr the father leave Janet and marry again this lady Margaret?
Because I have a marriage certificate in 1870 for Alexander aged 27 making birth around 1843 and betsy chalmers 22 who is also mentioned in Alexander’s death certificate
Alexander’s parents are at this time john carr deceased and mother Jessie Ferguson. Previously Carr M/s RObb , does this indicate that sometime after Alexander’s birth his mother Janet married another man with name Ferguson
So john the father either died or married another woman called Margaret?
Also need to find the Ferguson family Janet joined ?
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Just been checking a death for a Margaret Brannan other surname Carr using fuzzy matching no records on Scotlands people ......I would say the marriage you have for Alexander Carr in 1870 would have the correct parents names as he would surely know who his mother and father is
I cant seem to find Alexander Carr on the 1861 /1871 census on An....y but there is a record on Scotlands people for an Alexander Carr in Longforgan age 9 which makes him younger ? ..I did download the image but it is very hard to read so I have reported the problem and hopefully will get a reply ...The brother Charles Carr you mentioned is also in that area ...Have you looked for Alexander Carr on the 1911 census to see who he was living with ? ..Also the death of the Mother Betsy Chalmers to see who registered the death ...As maybe they were separated when they are both at different addresses on the 1901 census or Alexander
Rosie
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I see in 1891 Alexander is aged 50 estimated birth of 1841
Spouse Bridget
Alexander born in Perth with 8 children
I think we have the right Alexander but we need to work out what happened that his fathers wife’s name is Margaret rather than Janet in the death of Alexander because marriage his mother is Janet which makes sense with census
The census records in my previous message suggests that between 1846 and 1851 John leaves the household
As he is not listed come 1851
Could this be when Janet becomes the Ferguson and John married the lady Margaret Brannon ,John was recorded as deceased by 1870 and again mentioned deceased in 1920 Margaret also being deceased in 1920
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Yes it would appear this is the right Alexander Carr and his birth year does change in various census records ..As I said I don't see anything that matches up with Margaret Brannan /Carr ..or anything for Janet /Jessie Ferguson/Carr...Who were the witnesses on the marriage record for Alexander and Betsy ? ...I think it might be a case of trailing through records for other members of family to see if anything crops up ???
Rosie
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Who registered Alexander death ?
Probably the reason you can't find a birth for him is he was born before 1855 when registering became compulsory before then it is baptism records not all children were recorded in the church books for one reason or another and also I believe only 1/3 of the pre 1855 records survive.
You may never know what happened to his fathers John but it looks like he died somewhere between Alexander's birth and 1851 census Have you checked the orginal census from Scotland's People to check Janet's widow status
Have you checked for a marriage between a Janet Robb to ?Ferguson after 1851 in her village or close by
Have you checked the death or marriage certificates of Alexander's siblings to see what they have as their parents
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There is death for a Charles Carr age 20 1862 registration district St Martin mother's maiden name Robb might be worth looking at
Rosie
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thanks i will get going with this soon , thanks for all you help
i have found an ancestry tree with john and janet having
ann sutherland carr birth 1826 and catherine carr 1832
neither are mentioned in the census 1841 and 1851
this is a big family and theres alot to work out
i will continue to work on this
any help you can give is much appreciated
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Yes I seen that tree on Anc....y have not been able to match up anything for the rest of the family ...Getting the death for Charles will answer a lot of questions of its the right one ???
Rosie
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Ryan check out this marriage old parish register 17/7/1854 Kilspindie
Janet Robb
Peter Fraser
Rosie
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That sounds about right ! Where would the Ferguson name on the death of son Alexander come in ? Strange the Ferguson is mentioned could that have been a mistaken ? And Janet Fraser is the one previously Carr we have been looking for ?
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Looking at the image on the marriage the mothers name could well be mistaken for Ferguson
Rosie
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posted by wendy yeserday
You mentioned a child Robert born 1848 in the 1861 census or have I got the wrong one is the census for 1861 in Balquhidder that you think you have found Janet
Here's a long shot in 1861 in Dundee there is a Alexander Cary (that is how its spelled on Ancestry could be mistranscription) living with a Peter Fraser and his wife Janet Robb noted down as nephew to John Fraser in those days nephew could mean step son Both Alexander and janet are the right age and both born Perthshire didn't Alexander live in Dundee in later life Janet Fraser other name Robb died in the St Peters area of Dundee in 1871
Janet Robb and Peter Fraser married in Kilspinde in 1854
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posted by wendy yesterday
On Ancestry if you search Alex Cary b1846 b Perthshire it should come up the address is 1 Union Court Thorter Rose in Dundee Second District Janet has been recorded under her maiden name which not unusual is rare it was more commonally seen in the 1841 census Wendy
thanks wendy i will look into this
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don't know if you have this but think I've found Andrew Alexander's older brother in 1841
At Errol Perthshire living with a Frances Anton occupation Tailor
Andrew is a Tailor J according to Ancestry transcription guessing this is where he learned his trade
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Think I have traced Peter Fraser in the census
1851 in the parish of Abdie in Fife occupation Stone cutter
1861 in Dundee with Janet Robb (wife) and Alexander occupation Labrour
1871 Hawkhill Dundee (same address as Janet's death cert occupation General Contractor Foreman ? ) occupation Stone cutter
1881 Mains Loan Dundee with wife Christian occupation Stone Quarrier
There's a death of a Peter Fraser in the St Andrews area (where Mains Loan is ) in 1888 age 69 Age is way out but if its him it may mention Janet as his first wife
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Great info thanks so much will have a look at that tomorrow
Very thankful of your Efforts
Ryan
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good morning folks
have sent rosie and wendy an email with certificates i have found
i found an ancestry tree with an ann carr
from here i found info on mothers death - janet robb
also i found that ann had been married 3 times before death ,
this gives us a death cert and 2 marriage certs as cant find her first one but got the 3 ,
because ann was born in 1826 this gives us a few years of certs
i think i have found the death of peter fraser appears he married another woman after janets death
i have found the birth cert of ann in old parish records
also i searched for alexanders and have found something i need help with
the birth date of 1842 adds up to alexander parents are john carr and mary haddon
is this the the key to why on alexanders death it has a different name
also with all these certs we have for charles and ann is it safe to say the name ferguson on alexanders wedding cert is a mistake
will send all certs including the 2 old parish births
hopefully i can get some help as its very hard for me to read this old writing
thanks ryan
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Hi Ryan don't get to hung up on the different name on Alexander's death cert his son was only a young boy when Janet died so may not have known anything about her and death certificates are the worst for mistakes as the person giving the information may not know it all or upset or in shock to give the correct answers
Also remember approximately one third of BMD's pre 1855 weren't recorded or have survived so I would go by the info given on the marriage cert as given by Alexander himself apart from the Ferguson name which we now believe to be Fraser
Have found Ann's first marriage to John Taylor in Kilspindie 1849
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thanks wendy its maybe time to forget about the mistake and
just havent found a birth or death for father john carr ,birth 1809? to death ? going by census
also cant find birth for alexander - i thought i had found a birth for him in 1842 to john and marry haddon but going by census john is born 1816 in montrose
is it time to move on from trying to find john ?
ryan
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Hi Ryan , If you check the birth for Alexander Carr born 3 February 1842 Montrose Angus
Father John Carr Mother Mary Haddon ..This Alexander I would say appears in the census returns in Craig Forfarshire occupation sea man ...I think this Alexander married a Elizabeth Pettigrew Glasgow 1866 maybe check this out ..
Rosie
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Ryan you will maybe never find a death for John Carr if he died before 1855 that's the problem we all have I'm afraid ...I have had a look on deceased online and nothing pops up there ???
Rosie
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thanks maybe its going to be impossible
looking at son alexanders marriage in 1870 john father is deceased
but his daughter ann in 1875 he is not mentioned deceased
strange because 1851 census suggests janet is a widow
would be very interesting if we could get the birth of alexander
ryan
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thanks maybe its going to be impossible
looking at son alexanders marriage in 1870 john father is deceased
but his daughter ann in 1875 he is not mentioned deceased
strange because 1851 census suggests janet is a widow
would be very interesting if we could get the birth of alexander
ryan
A lot of certificates I have came across did not always have the death for parents recorded or some had the wrong parent recorded as deceased ..
I think you will need to forget about the mother name on the death certificate for Alexander all Other certificates lists his father as ploughman or labourer the other John Carr married to Margaret Haddon his occupation was shoemaker ...
So back to the orginal post Alexander Carr and Betsy Chalmers were the parents of John Carr :)
Rosie
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that is perfect we can accept we have made a great achievement on the john carr mystery but seems going back to grandfather john isnt easy as we have experienced
huge thanks to rosie and wendy
just before we finish the subject why wouldnt there be a birth for alexander ?
ryan
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Looking to Ann Carr death cert looks like the informant is John Carr brother
There is a death of a john Carr in the St Andrews area of Dundee 1908 age 68 could be him
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Again not all births were recorded before 1855 I have never been able to find births for some of my Ancestors it's just one of these things ..And it gets much harder trying to trace family back also as you say you have made a great achievement ...Don't always rely on family trees without checking information yourself good luck
Rosie
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Again not all births were recorded before 1855 I have never been able to find births for some of my Ancestors it's just one of these things ..And it gets much harder trying to trace family back also as you say you have made a great achievement ...Don't always rely on family trees without checking information yourself good luck
Rosie
To add to this I have Ancestors where none of their children's births can be found where half can be found and only 1 can be found all these in the 1830's and 40's so it is very hit and miss
As for deaths pre 1855 the best place would be the Monumental inscription either on deceased online or in the books published although with a young family and John a labourer they probably couldn't afford a headstone or a plot and he was more than likely buried in the local paupers grave
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Yes Wendy Monumental Inscriptions is another great source I have gathered quite a few books over the years which has gave me a lot of information ..
Before we go Ryan not much help on the fathers side John Carr
But better luck with Janet Robb
Marriage for her parents 25 December 1803
Kinnaird By Erroll Perthshire
Andrew Robb
Ann Will ..
1851 census address Pitrodie Village Kilspindie Perthshire
Andrew Robb age 66 born about 1783 Kinfauns Perthshire occupation meal miller employing 1man
Ann Robb age 66 born about 1785 Cargill
Jame Robb age 20 born about 1831 Pitrodie Perthshire
Janet Robb age 10 born about 1841 Dundee granddaughter
Death for Andrew Robb age 75 Kilspindie 1855 mothers maiden name Ireland
Death for Ann Robb age 83 Kilspindie 1864 mothers maiden name Brown
Both on Scotlands People
Rosie
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thank you wendy and rosie
are you willing to help me with another family puzzle?
i will start a new topic if you have time?
ryan
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Hi Ryan only start a new topic if it's a different family as you don't want people wasting a lot of time on information you already have
Rosie
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Don't know if you want this but here's Janet's siblings all born Kilspindie
Ann Sutherland 1806
Rebecca 1816
Alexander 1817
Helen Scott 1819
Andrew 1821
John Spence 1823
Jean 1827
James 1830
Notice there are gaps where other children were probably born but their entries haven't survived and notice the name of the first daughter