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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: marcmcintyre on Tuesday 06 February 18 13:57 GMT (UK)
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My partners mum has died and we needed to get a birth certificate for her, so we went on to get the reference code and we looked her up and found on the page her mother maiden name is different. She was born Lilian L Mcintyre in 1947 and it says mother maiden name is Campbell. Then there is a * next to it and at the bottom the *say the grandmothers surname (she had 2 surnames moreton and ranaldi - due to a name change in the war to get work she hid her Italian name apparently)
Now no one knew who this campbell was until this weekend when we seen the marriage cert of her dad joseph to lavnia and it said he was divorced to a mary campbell. Shocking so there is the campbell name.
What we dont know is when they got divorced.
So Lilian Lavinia was born 1947 and then re-registered in 1948. Her dad remarried in 1951 to a Lavinia Moreton/Ranaldi.
What we cant work out is why she would have birth mum maiden name as Campbell - was she then adopted by Lavinia Moreton/Ranaldi? But whats more strange is why has she got her mothers name Lilian lavinia if her dad did have her with campbell. He obviously knew this lavinia at the time of lilians birth to call her lilian lavinia. It cant be coinicidence that you would know these names that makes me think she definately was lavninas daughter.
As Lavinia moreton was italian i am guessing she was the Catholic, (we dont know if the father was) but lilian was raised a catholic too.
Nothing makes sense, could it just be he named the ex wife campbell by mistake and they had to change it? Did he have an affair with lavinia which ended the marriage to mary?
Can anyone shed any light of what happened here?
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. . .
Nothing makes sense, could it just be he named the ex wife campbell by mistake and they had to change it? Did he have an affair with lavinia which ended the marriage to mary?
Can anyone shed any light of what happened here?
I think that is the likelihood. Assuming it was the father who registered the birth, the registrar probably asked "What is your wife's maiden name?" rather than "What is the mother's maiden name?"
Have you seen the '48 entry? What exactly does that say?
To re-register the birth both parents would have to be present and the Superintendent Registrar would also have to sign the amended entry. At that time if the parents were not married the father's name could only be entered in the register if he was present at the time of registration.
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The 1948 entry looks like a normal entry (except she was born in 1947 not 48) and has the moreton/ranaldi for mothers surname. That year they also had twins and they are on the same page - this is in jun/jul/aug quarter register.
Thanks for your help.
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Hi Marc
Welcome to Rootschat ;D
Please take a moment to read our guidelines for posting
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We have a 'no living people' policy here so if anyone is still alive (the twins?) please can you use the modify button to edit your post and removes their names.
Thanks
Dawn
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It's also easy to speculate on what has happened, the only way to know is to buy a copy of the birth certificate.
If you apply for the 1947 birth entry and it has been superceded by a re-registration, then the GRO will only send you the later one from 1948.
If she had been adopted, then there will be a separate entry in the GRO adopted children's index which is not publicly available online.
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I have a similar situation. I have one relative whose birth has three index entries.
He was first registered in Q2 1932 as the son of an unmarried mother. He was re-registered two years later Q3 1934 using his 'father's' name after his mother married. A handwritten entry then appears in Q1 1932 under the new name with a note refering to the Q3 1934 entry.
From this I deduce that he was born in March '32 rather than in one of the following quarter's months where he was first registered.
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I have a similar situation. I have one relative whose birth has three index entries.
He was first registered in Q2 1932 as the son of an unmarried mother. He was re-registered two years later Q3 1934 using his 'father's' name after his mother married. A handwritten entry then appears in Q1 1932 under the new name with a note refering to the Q3 1934 entry.
From this I deduce that he was born in March '32 rather than in one of the following quarter's months where he was first registered.
Re-registrations are quite common - either to add an unmarried father when he wasn't named on the original entry, or to legitimise a birth after the subsequent marriage of the parents. In both cases the father has to confirm he is the father of the child, not just the mother's new partner or husband. You can work out a likely timeline from the indexes, but you really need to get certificates for both entries to be certain of the chain of events.
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There are 4 entries on the index for her
McIntyre Lilian L Campbell Coventry 9c 1586
McIntyre Lilian L Morton Coventry 9c see J'48
McIntyre Lilian L Ranaldi Coventry 9c see J'48
Morton Lilian L Ranaldi Coventry 9c 1586a
To me that says she was born of the unmarried Ms Morton (previously Ranaldi) but that Mr McIntyre attended the registration and declared himself to be the father (no clue as to the Campbell unless as someone suggested it was a mix up as to which wife's maiden name he was meant to be giving)
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What you have is a first entry in Jun 1947 as McIntyre, with a mothers maiden name of Campbell. This has then been corrected to be Morton/Ranaldi. From the index alone, you can't be certain whether a father is named (if he is they are claiming to be married).
In Jun 1948 the birth is re-registered. This time it is clear that it is to an unmarried couple, and the father's details will be on there.
Comparing both certificates will be interesting - the details/reasons for the correction in 1947 particularly. There may be marginal notes on both entries.
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The only problem in this instance with ordering online from the GRO is that they will automatically send you the 1948 entry as the 1947 has been supeseded even if you order the 1947 entry.
If you want the 1947, you will be better off ordering by phone and insisting you want the earlier entry as well as the later one.
Buying both certs will cost £18.50
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Joseph McIntyre married Mary Campbell in Blackburn in 1934. Joseph was aged 20 and Mary 23. Both were single.
I can't see any birth registered of a McIntyre child with mother's maiden name Campbell during the years between that marriage and the birth of Lilian Lavinia.
Joseph and Mary, appearing in Willesden, Middlesex in the 1939 register have no children with them.
So if, as it seems, Joseph was the informant at the registration of Lilian Lavinia's birth, he was doing something he had probably never done before. If he had not expected the question, "Your wife's maiden name?" he might easily have answered with the truth before realising why that was the wrong answer in this situation.
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So if, as it seems, Joseph was the informant at the registration of Lilian Lavinia's birth, he was doing something he had probably never done before. If he had not expected the question, "Your wife's maiden name?" he might easily have answered with the truth before realising why that was the wrong answer in this situation.
Without seeing the certificate, we don't know who the informant was, whether a father is even named (he probably is, but there are scenarios that would generate the same index entry without) , or what they said. There are a number of scenarios that would fit - from simple mistake or misunderstanding through to fraud/perjury.
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It is true that it is best to see a copy of the registration, but to get the birth registered with the father's name (we know that it's there because it is indexed under McIntyre, and originally not under any other name), and with the mother's maiden name as Campbell, the most likely scenario is as I described. I was simply offering a possible explanation as to how that might have come about.