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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: Iain... on Tuesday 06 February 18 15:24 GMT (UK)
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Good afternoon All…
Try as I may, I’m unable to find any children for Ralph Fraser. For well over a year, I think I’ve looked about everywhere, RHQ and Ancestry included so I’ve obviously hit a ‘wall.’
Ralph has the following census:
1841
St George, Hannover Square.
Ralph Fraser, 58, army pensioner.
Ann ‘Fraser,’ 60.
Mary Williams, 18, dress maker
Sarah Bailey, 20, FS
John Marrell, 59, smith
George Marrell, 25, smith
William Marrell, 16, smith
Ann Marrell, 29
1851
West Street, Pimlico
Ralph Fraser, 68, widower, Chelsea pensioner
Mary Ann Williams, 28, dress maker, single
Details:
- Born in Westminster, London abt1780 according to his discharge papers in December 1818.
- Enlisted at the age of 19 in 1799.
- Discharged in London 1818 following 21 years service, having been “worn out.”
- Died on the 4th of February 1862 at West Street, London. (census)
Now…, a friend of mine sent me the following:
“It may be that Ralph married three times.
There is a marriage of a Ralph Fraser to Ann Tayton in Westminster in 1818. (he was a widower)
I can find a marriage between a Ralph Fraser and Mary Ann Martin in Lambeth in 1814. (this Ralph was a widower when he married Mary Ann)”
He was about 42 when he left the Army in 1818…, “worn out” but not that old ! And that seems to tally with the 1818 wedding. (for which I have no references)
Is it possible that he used to call his second wife Ann (1841 census) for easiness sake or ‘in memory’ of his 'second' wife ?
Any information or advice on where I could find his children would be heartily welcomed.
Thank you…, Iain.
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have you looked for a will?
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what evidence do you have that he had any children?
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Maybe the "first marriage".....
Ralph Fraser to Elizabeth Downing 7th January 1807.
St Clement Danes Westminster .
Tazzie
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Lol...
He liked a good drink and a good brawl. I served in the same Regiment and unless he was sterile, (with 3 wives) so he almost certainly had children.
Thanks... :)
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Maybe the "first marriage".....
Ralph Fraser to Elizabeth Downing 7th January 1807.
St Clement Danes Westminster .
Tazzie
Yes Tazzie... I saw that but still no children.
I even 'turned the tables'! Searching for the wife with Ralph as a husband..., and even that didn't work.
Lol..., I suppose he wouldn't be the first to be sterile !
Thanks..., Iain.
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have you looked for a will?
Wow !
- Died... On the 4th of February 1862 at West Street, leaving effects under £800.
I hadn't thought about that !
What's more..., his last wife is dead !
Thanks Dawn...
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maybe he contracted syphillis as a result of his shenanigans and passed it along, any children born might not have survived.
The will most be worth a £10 punt surely.
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I wonder if these are connected....
George Ralph Fraser bp 16 May 1819 Christ church Southwark
Ann Martha Fraser bp1 July 1821. St Mary Lambeth.
Both to Ralph & Ann Fraser a potatoe merchant.
Tazzie
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If those births tally Ann Martha died 1823 aged 2 buried 26 November transcript just states London. A couple of Georges ( no middle name ) appear on various census in London area.
Tazzie
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maybe he contracted syphillis as a result of his shenanigans and passed it along, any children born might not have survived.
The will most be worth a £10 punt surely.
Lol...
Dawn..., you are awful !
My hero certainly couldn’t have had that !
This man with 6 others saved Europe !
Nonetheless…, 3 dead wives !
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I wonder if these are connected....
George Ralph Fraser bp 16 May 1819 Christ church Southwark
Ann Martha Fraser bp1 July 1821. St Mary Lambeth.
Both to Ralph & Ann Fraser a potatoe merchant.
Tazzie
Thanks Tazzie...
Certainly not a potatoe merchant. Ralph was a Queen's Almsman at Westminster Abbey. (Beadsman)
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I'm no expert with wills..., but I did find this.
Unfortunately..., no mention of children.
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Some newspapers on FindMyPast have great write ups on his military history. All call him the bravest man in the british army at the battle of Waterloo.
Tazzie
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Iain
The image you posted is confirmation from the probate calendars that there was/is a will.
You need to get the will for £10 from HMCTS to see where his estate went.
https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Calendar?surname=fraser&yearOfDeath=1862&page=9#calendar
https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Calendar?surname=fray&yearOfDeath=1862&page=9#calendar
and quote folio 213
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Good afternoon Tazzie… Good afternoon Dawn… And thank you !
Tazzie…, quite so !
I suppose I should have explained. (I preferred to remain focused) In fact, I’m writing a film about him…, in the hope that it’ll be a follow-up to the 1970 feature film ‘The Battle of Waterloo.’
When I said to Dawn that “he” saved Europe, I wasn’t joking !
Wellington mentioned in his dispatch on the evening of the Battle that his Guards held Hougoumont farm. (his right flank) Had the farm fallen, it would have been a disaster.
Part of the defence events was the north gate. Thirty-odd French had forced the gates and they were all killed…, but during this commotion, it was Ralph Fraser and others who managed to close them again.
Had the gates not been closed, Napoleon’s left flank would have had a party that evening.
http://www.napoleonicwarsforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=3532
Lol…, as such; I ‘need’ to contact his descendents.
Dawn…, thank you ! This is obviously the best method ! Totally new to me so I’ll have to do some research.
But something worries me ! Syphilis !!
Joking to one side; three dead wives !
Had he caught the disease, I get the impression that it would have been after 1815. If so, then one wife died of ‘natural’ causes.
Looks like I’ll need to find his death certificate and see if the causes are mentioned.
I hope nothing is mentioned as this man is a hero in my Regiment !
As can be seen by the annexed painting; he’s here with his halberd trying to kill Colonel Cubières. (next to the farm) This painting is in the Sergeant’s Mess at Wellington Barracks, London.
Thanks everyone for your help.
If I find something new, I’ll keep you updated. ;)
Kind Regards…, Iain.
https://www.dropbox.com/sc/o7dyzzs5ih8niq4/AAC6g4k932bIoFowIJ1RLTwFa
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Fraser received a special Waterloo medal.
The medal was a ‘deformed’ Scots Guards insignia. (elongated) And the plaque by the north gate was sculptured using the medal as a format.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBrVvyJXWeU
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Hi....
Ive been looking at Mary Ann Williams niece in 1841/51 census.
Mary Ann Emma Williams marries John Dearlove in St George Hanover Sq in 1853.
John is a widower a Baker of West Street father John a gentleman.
Mary Ann Emma spinster of West Street father James Williams a carpenter.
The have 2 children Mary Ann Dearlove 1854-1854 and Ralph Fraser Dearlove 1855-1864.
I cannot find Mary Ann and Ralph Dearlove in 1861 census but a possible for the husaband is in Oxford alone.
when Ralph Fraser is buried in Brompton in 1862 a note in remarks states "extra depth to 10 feet".
a note on the head page also states .."Grant to Mary Ann Emma Dearlove same place Widow".
Any way I was looking to go sideways from your Ralph and look for siblings and then their children,
A Mary Ann Emma Williams bpt Lambeth 1823 to James and Jane Williams and I found their marriage and its his wife's side . James Williams to Jane Tayton St George Hanover Sq 1819.
My son loves history and is taking it at A level and also going to study at Uni. Napoleonic is a favourite area for him. Love the bit about pulling Col. Cubieres from his horse and riding it into the farm.
Tazzie
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Hi.
on looking for a 1861 to tie in I can also see a John Dearlove -baker- in Canada listed as widower. A couple of family trees on Ancestry are sparse but state Ralph Fraser Dearlove died in the Croydon poor house.
Tazzie
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Hi lain.
Strange though it may seem I'm back to the potato link.
On marriage Mary Ann Emma Williams states father John is a carpenter. On her baptism he is a potato dealer. Now it maybe Ralph also had something to do with this as per the baptisms found earlier. It may have been a larger business and an extra income.
Tazzie
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Hi lain.
Strange though it may seem I'm back to the potato link.
On marriage Mary Ann Emma Williams states father John is a carpenter. On her baptism he is a potato dealer. Now it maybe Ralph also had something to do with this as per the baptisms found earlier. It may have been a larger business and an extra income.
Tazzie
Good morning Tazzie…
Lol…, all very confusing !
I could go along with potato merchant and the George and Ann births…, but above, you say that ‘Mary Ann’ has a father called John. (not Ralph ?)
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Hi lain...
I think you've missed my longer reply at the end of page 2 that explains the relationship between Ralph and niece Mary Ann Williams.
Tazzie
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Good morning Tazzie…
Sorry for not getting back sooner…, heaps of work !
No, I didn’t miss the post, but I could have missed the second last paragraph which helps explain the situation. Lol…, prior to that there was too much to take in !
So if I understand correctly, Ralph has no children otherwise he and his wife Ann Tayton (sister of Jane) would be mentioned somewhere in relation to baptism records.
So the closest link to him is his ‘niece’ Mary Ann Emma Williams…., daughter of Jane Tayton who is Ralph’s sister-in-law.
Mary Ann Emma Williams then marries John Dearlove and have 2 children who die young.
I like ‘Ralph Fraser’ Dearlove ! She must have appreciated Fraser and known about his past to have given her boy both names.
In the meantime, two children dead…, it looks like the ‘Frasers’ didn’t have much luck family-wise.
I had a look at the map and your Brompton cemetery research has the Royal Chelsea Pensioner’s Hospital as a neighbour. So he didn’t have far to travel !
I hope to visit London soon (I’m in Belgium; near Waterloo) and I’ll try to find the headstone. I’ll also be visiting RHQ and Westminster Abbey where he was a Queen’s Almsman.
Apparently, (with your son) history is all in the genes ! I wish him well with his studies.
If ever I can be of any help in relation to the Hougoumont farm and the Foot Guards on the day, (nothing else) please don’t hesitate to ask.
Kind Regards…, Iain. ;)
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Hi lain......
No problems. I thought we could move it forwards by going with Mary Ann but looks like no children who lived to adult hood.
We've been to Napoleons birth place in Ajaccio Corsica twice. The first time we visited was a Monday the only day of the week it closes. We went again last year on a med cruise and he was first in the queue lol no chance to miss out.
Many thanks for the offer with Hougoumont and the guards. One of his uni's of choice is offering Napoleonic history as an option choice.
I may keep checking back in on Ralph. Fresh eyes every so often. Hope you get to Brompton.
Best wishes
Tazzie
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;)
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Hello: I just happened upon this chat about Ralph Fraser. I find it fascinating as my GGGrandfather was John Dearlove B 1817 Baker. He was married once to Cordelia Sidey who died 1851- then married Mary Ann Emma Williams 1853. They had a daughter Mary Ann Dearlove B 1854 D 1854. then son Ralph Fraser Dearlove b1854-d 1865 died measles Croydon Industrial Childrens Home. ( parents unknown). My GGGrandfather came to Stratford Ontario Canada with his only remaining child from his first marriage John Dearlove JR B 1848. There was some thought that he left his wife Mary Ann and Ralph Fraser behind because of possible paternity situation with Ralph. He came to Canada sometime after 1854, I'm thinking 1857. I hope this might advance the discussion a bit
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Hi Paul
Welcome to Rootschat ;D
According to his profile, Iain was online here a couple of weeks ago so should receive an email notification that you have posted and hopefully come back soon.
Dawn
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Hi Paul
Welcome to Rootschat !
You posted "they had a daughter Mary Ann Dearlove B 1854 D 1854. then son Ralph Fraser Dearlove b1854-d 1865 died measles Croydon Industrial Childrens Home. ( parents unknown)."
What do you mean by "Parents unknown" ? Would you expand?
Ray
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Hello Ray: I have a copy of Ralph Fraser Dearlove death certificate. On it the box for parents is marked "unknown" By 1864 Frasers death, John Dearlove my GGGrandfather was already in Canada, with his son John from his first marriage. I don't know what happened to Mary Emma Williams for her not to be recorded on his death certificate. Paul
Moderator comment: full certificate removed, small portions only are allowed for deciphering purposes
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It seems that Ralph Frasers mother died in April of 1864, and therefore his
parents were "unknown" John in Canada, Mary Williams- deceased. Poor Ralph Fraser.
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Good Morning Paul…
Lol…, it’s been a long time since I read this post and I’m pleased to get back to it. Just as a matter of interest, (don’t remember if I already mentioned it) but I am writing a book about Ralph. Or I should say, about his Light Company at Waterloo. I served in the same Company. (Scots Guards) My last year’s Vol-1 was a disaster, simply because I am discovering new things on a near-monthly basis, despite the 200-years of research. Vol-1 was out-of-date even before it arrived in Belgium. The 500 books are now gathering dust in my workshop. Vol-2 is programmed for summer next year.
A few years back, I created a family tree for Ralph, and using the ‘hint’ system, your name popped up. Please may I ask what Ancestry has you down as, as a family member in relation to Ralph ?
Thanks…, Iain.
PS For your interest. The painting I used as an Ancestry avatar is all wrong.
This painting used to be in my old Sgt’s Mess at Wellington Barracks. (that's RHQ for five Regiments of Foot Guards) It has since been transferred to the Officer’s Mess 1st Battalion Scots Guards. Among my many discoveries, Col. Cubières was riding a white horse, not chestnut brown. Cubières was captured in the evening and he spent about a year in a Bruxelles prison. Unlike the traditional French prisoners who were transported to Dartmoor…,
https://ageofrevolution.org/200-object/dartmoor-prison-and-english-barracks/
Officers were usually allowed to remain in Belgium…, making it easier for their families to pay ransom money.
During his stay, he wrote many letters home and in one letter, he mentioned that his horse was shot. (not stabbed by Fraser’s halberd as depicted in the painting) As such, this eliminates the fantasy stories written by some historians, saying that Ralph rode the horse back into the Hougoumont farm. (some of these celebrity-historians should have known better)
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Hi Paul...
I've just been looking through some of the links to Ralph and realized that I hadn't turned the page concerning his will.
Now I'm really confused.
I also see you did the same thing as your Ancestry entry doesn't have the second page indicated with the name Dearlove.
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Hello- Good to see you ( and me) back on the research. Ralph Fraser is " husband of aunt of wife of 3rd Great Grandfather" and Ralph Fraser Dearlove is my 2nd Great Grand Uncle. I do have the back page of the probate listing Mary Williams Dearlove ( her husband John Dearlove left her about 1857 and immigrated to Canada with a son John from a 1st marriage), leaving Ralph and Mary alone.
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Hi Paul… Very interesting.
Concerning Mary Ann Emma Williams, I believe her death in 1864 was not “West London,” but West Street, London. This was the same building where Ralph died.
Years ago I had a look, but the old building had been replaced.
It’s amazing the photo you have of John Dearlove b1848. When I think about it, when he was 10-years old, he had obviously spoken with Ralph. Ralph died 5-years after.
Stay safe…, Iain.