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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Laois (Queens) => Topic started by: NicolaasMars on Thursday 08 February 18 13:44 GMT (UK)

Title: Offspring of John Dempsey and Elizabeth Reilly, 1878-1893 Laois/Wexford
Post by: NicolaasMars on Thursday 08 February 18 13:44 GMT (UK)
John Dempsey [Jr] (RC bapt. 3 Dec 1848 Graiguecullen, Co. Carlow; parents John Dempsey [Sr] and Mary Whelen)
marries on 9 March 1886 in the RC Chapel of Mayo, Ballickmoyler, Co. Laois, with
Elizabeth Reilly (RC bapt. 16 Jan 1853 Parish Mayo; parents Thomas Reilly and Margaret Brennan.

I am at a loss to interpret the offspring I find of John [Jr] and Elizabeth. I found the following children, in the birth certificates or the census 1901:

Mary  21 May 1878
Mary  17 Oct 1881
Patrick  10 Dec 1884
Nicholas circa 1887 (census; birth certificate not found)
Anne  4 Jul 1887
Thomas  24 Dec 1891
Kate circa 1894 (census; birth certificate not found)
Joseph 18 Dec 1893, died 26 Feb 1894.

In all the birth certificates, the name of the mother is given as Elizabeth (or Eliza) BRENNAN, rather than Reilly. Brennan is the maiden name of Elizabeth's mother.

I noticed also that the date of marriage falls in the middle of the period of birth of the children above. I do not understand what all this means. Any help will be greatly appreciated.

 
Title: Re: Offspring of John Dempsey and Elizabeth Reilly, 1878-1893 Laois/Wexford
Post by: hallmark on Thursday 08 February 18 14:23 GMT (UK)
If you post Links to the Certs you found then people might spot some discrepencies.
Title: Re: Offspring of John Dempsey and Elizabeth Reilly, 1878-1893 Laois/Wexford
Post by: Sinann on Thursday 08 February 18 14:38 GMT (UK)
You haven't given any links to the certs or Census so it's difficult to attempt an answer.

Marriage of John Dempsey to Eliza Reiley in Queens County/Laois 1886
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1886/10829/5949754.pdf
Trying to find them in the Census
Title: Re: Offspring of John Dempsey and Elizabeth Reilly, 1878-1893 Laois/Wexford
Post by: Sinann on Thursday 08 February 18 14:45 GMT (UK)
As you also have Wexford in the title, are you mixing up to different couples
John Dempsey and Elizabeth Brennan marriage in Wexford 1873
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1873/11290/8142126.pdf

I can't see any Dempsey from Queens County living in Wexford in either Census
and of the Dempseys from Carlow none of them are John.
Title: Re: Offspring of John Dempsey and Elizabeth Reilly, 1878-1893 Laois/Wexford
Post by: Sinann on Thursday 08 February 18 15:11 GMT (UK)
This is the birth of Thomas Dempsey 24 Dec 1891, scratch that his birth is 24 Oct 1891
so his sister Anne 4 July 1887
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1887/02546/1942453.pdf
address is Ballydoyle which appears to be this family
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Wexford/Mayglass/Ballydoyle/1801449/
both parents are from Wexford.
Title: Re: Offspring of John Dempsey and Elizabeth Reilly, 1878-1893 Laois/Wexford
Post by: NicolaasMars on Thursday 08 February 18 17:03 GMT (UK)
First, thank you for your kind and quick help! (I am a Dutchman, trying to piece together the ancestry of my British daughter-in-law; not easy.)

I now understand that I attributed the children I mentioned to the wrong John Dempsey. Thank you for finding the real parents of those poor children. I got confused because this couple was/is the only John Dempsey married to an Eliza(beth) I could find in the census of 1901 and 1911. I was fortified in my wrong path because I had found the death of an Elizabeth Dempsey in 1908, and the 1901 census had the couple while the 1911 census shows John Dempsey a widower.

Now knowing that I was on the wrong path, I looked again and found in the 1901 census
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Queen_s_Co_/Mountmellick_Rural/Avoley/1650174/ an Elizabeth Dempsey as a widow with two children. However, I so far failed to find the birth certificates of the two children mentioned there, so I do not yet know of this is "my" Elizabeth Dempsey née Reilly. And although the John Dempsey on the last line of https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1898/05820/4647953.pdf seems a possible candidate for his death, the name of his widow is not given, so I cannot be certain that this is "my" John Dempsey. (You see that I am more careful now, thanks to your advice.)

If anyone is able to help me further to find the correct couple, I would be very glad.

Two minor remarks:
-I did not know how to add the links to the census or birth records, and had to ask someone more knowledgeable to explain this (hope the links above work!).
-I do not understand Sinann's remark: "This is the birth of Thomas Dempsey 24 Dec 1891, scratch that his birth is 24 Oct 1891 so his sister Anne 4 July 1887"

Thanks again,

Nicolaas
Title: Re: Offspring of John Dempsey and Elizabeth Reilly, 1878-1893 Laois/Wexford
Post by: Sinann on Thursday 08 February 18 17:29 GMT (UK)
On your list you have a Thomas Born 24 Dec 1891, I could only find a Thomas on the 24 Oct 1891 to John Dempsey and Elizabeth Brennan. Not sure if you made an error on the month or if I didn't find the correct Thomas.

We will do our best to help if you give us the detail of the person you are looking for that was born in Ireland.
I'm guessing your daughter in laws grandfather?
Title: Re: Offspring of John Dempsey and Elizabeth Reilly, 1878-1893 Laois/Wexford
Post by: hallmark on Thursday 08 February 18 17:48 GMT (UK)
 Birth results for Dempsey of Carlow Registration District from 1886 to 1899

Displaying results 1 - 13 of 13.    http://www.rootschat.com/links/01liw/
Title: Re: Offspring of John Dempsey and Elizabeth Reilly, 1878-1893 Laois/Wexford
Post by: Sinann on Thursday 08 February 18 18:06 GMT (UK)
I did look earlier for children of Dempsey/Reilly but could not see any in Carlow reg district.

Edited, forgot the 'not'  :P
Title: Re: Offspring of John Dempsey and Elizabeth Reilly, 1878-1893 Laois/Wexford
Post by: hallmark on Thursday 08 February 18 18:16 GMT (UK)
I did look earlier for children of Dempsey/Reilly but could see any in Carlow reg district.

Maybe they lived elsewhere after they married.

Without a fact for one particular child, name, birth year it is very difficult!
Title: Re: Offspring of John Dempsey and Elizabeth Reilly, 1878-1893 Laois/Wexford
Post by: NicolaasMars on Thursday 08 February 18 18:49 GMT (UK)
Some background, as requested: I try to compile an ancestry tree, with all (well, not all, obviously) ancestors of my daughter-in-law Jill O'Reilly. Around 1910, her great-grandfather, James Reilly (born 19 Oct 1886 in Carlow) migrated to England. The earliest ancestor in the male line I have so far is Thomas Reilly, RC baptized in Doonane Parish on 1 January 1822. He married 30 Sep 1846 to Margaret Brennan (bapt. 1 Sep 1824).
This couple had four children, of whom James Reilly (bapt. 26 Dec 1849 Killeshin Parish, Co. Carlow) was my d-i-l's great-great-great-grandfather. One of the other three children was Elizabeth Reilly, bapt. 16 Jan 1853. I try to document not only the direct ancestors, but also their siblings (and the spouses of these siblings). That is why I am interested in the details of Elizabeth. As I could not find the death of Elizabeth Reilly without knowing her husband's name, I tried to find her husband and children.

What is certain about Eliza(beth) Reilly (spelled Reiley on the marriage certificate) https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1886/10829/5949754.pdf is her baptism and her marriage on 9 March 1886 in the RC Chapel of Mayo, Reg.District Ballickmoyler in Co. Laois, with a John Dempsey, farmer, whose father, also John Dempsey, was also a farmer. Elizabeth's father was Thomas Reilly. Elizabeth and father Thomas lived in townland Dromagh.

Thus, help in finding
--the death of Elizabeth Dempsey, née Reilly
--the birth and death of her husband John Dempsey
--the children of John and Elizabeth
is very welcome.

Thank you.

Nicolaas
Title: Re: Offspring of John Dempsey and Elizabeth Reilly, 1878-1893 Laois/Wexford
Post by: Sinann on Thursday 08 February 18 19:15 GMT (UK)
We just have to catch up with you by getting our heads around the records.
James Reilly born 19 Oct 1886, father James mother Ellen Dugan
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1886/02580/1953768.pdf
is this your James?
Title: Re: Offspring of John Dempsey and Elizabeth Reilly, 1878-1893 Laois/Wexford
Post by: Sinann on Thursday 08 February 18 19:20 GMT (UK)
deleted
sorry getting mixed up
Title: Re: Offspring of John Dempsey and Elizabeth Reilly, 1878-1893 Laois/Wexford
Post by: hallmark on Thursday 08 February 18 19:39 GMT (UK)
deleted
sorry getting mixed up

 ;D ;D
Title: Re: Offspring of John Dempsey and Elizabeth Reilly, 1878-1893 Laois/Wexford
Post by: hallmark on Thursday 08 February 18 19:48 GMT (UK)
Some background, as requested: I try to compile an ancestry tree, with all (well, not all, obviously) ancestors of my daughter-in-law Jill O'Reilly. Around 1910, her great-grandfather, James Reilly (born 19 Oct 1886 in Carlow) migrated to England. The earliest ancestor in the male line I have so far is Thomas Reilly, RC baptized in Doonane Parish on 1 January 1822. He married 30 Sep 1846 to Margaret Brennan (bapt. 1 Sep 1824).
This couple had four children, of whom James Reilly (bapt. 26 Dec 1849 Killeshin Parish, Co. Carlow) was my d-i-l's great-great-great-grandfather. One of the other three children was Elizabeth Reilly, bapt. 16 Jan 1853. I try to document not only the direct ancestors, but also their siblings (and the spouses of these siblings). That is why I am interested in the details of Elizabeth. As I could not find the death of Elizabeth Reilly without knowing her husband's name, I tried to find her husband and children.

What is certain about Eliza(beth) Reilly (spelled Reiley on the marriage certificate) https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1886/10829/5949754.pdf is her baptism and her marriage on 9 March 1886 in the RC Chapel of Mayo, Reg.District Ballickmoyler in Co. Laois, with a John Dempsey, farmer, whose father, also John Dempsey, was also a farmer. Elizabeth's father was Thomas Reilly. Elizabeth and father Thomas lived in townland Dromagh.

Thus, help in finding
--the death of Elizabeth Dempsey, née Reilly
--the birth and death of her husband John Dempsey
--the children of John and Elizabeth
is very welcome.

Thank you.

Nicolaas

OK...searching for James, 14 or 15 in 1901 Census using the search below, gets you 3 results

http://www.rootschat.com/links/01liz/

Title: Re: Offspring of John Dempsey and Elizabeth Reilly, 1878-1893 Laois/Wexford
Post by: hallmark on Thursday 08 February 18 20:02 GMT (UK)
Shrink link not working.... this gets you ALL Dempseys in Queen's Co 1901


http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/search/results.jsp?census_year=1901&surname=Dempsey&exact=&firstname=&county19011911=Queen%27s+Co.&county1821=&county1831=&county1841=&county1851=&townland=&ded=&age=&sex=&relationToHead=&religion=Roman+Catholic&education=&occupation=&marriageStatus=&marriageYears=&childrenBorn=&childrenLiving=&birthplace=&language=&deafdumb=&search=Search&sort=age&pageSize=100&houseNumber=&familiesNumber=&malesNumber=&femalesNumber=&maleServNumber=&femaleServNumber=&estChurchNumber=&romanCatNumber=&presbNumberDiv=&protNumber=&parish=&barony=&yearsMarried=&causeOfDeath=&yearOfDeath=&familyId=&ageInMonths=&pager.offset=300
Title: Re: Offspring of John Dempsey and Elizabeth Reilly, 1878-1893 Laois/Wexford
Post by: Sinann on Thursday 08 February 18 20:45 GMT (UK)
It may be the case that James and Elizabeth didn't have any children.
Title: Re: Offspring of John Dempsey and Elizabeth Reilly, 1878-1893 Laois/Wexford
Post by: Sinann on Friday 09 February 18 00:13 GMT (UK)
The marriage cert had Coorlane for John Dempsey address, using the OSI mapviewer there is a Coolane (not marked) in the townland of Coolaghan with this couple
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Queen_s_Co_/Ardough/Coorlaghan/787017/
but in each census she is 10 years too young, not married quite long enough either

If I'm correct and the other Dempsey living near by is his brother, than this John's father is William.
Dead end.
Title: Re: Offspring of John Dempsey and Elizabeth Reilly, 1878-1893 Laois/Wexford
Post by: NicolaasMars on Friday 09 February 18 08:37 GMT (UK)
We just have to catch up with you by getting our heads around the records.
James Reilly born 19 Oct 1886, father James mother Ellen Dugan
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1886/02580/1953768.pdf
is this your James?

Yes, this is the correct James. And he is in the third of the three 1901 census records posted by Hallmark (and that records includes his father James and mother Ellen [Deegan]. This latter James is the brother of Ellen Reilly, whose death, husband and children I am trying to find.

Hope this helps.

Nicolaas
Title: Re: Offspring of John Dempsey and Elizabeth Reilly, 1878-1893 Laois/Wexford
Post by: hallmark on Friday 09 February 18 09:48 GMT (UK)
If they are in Coorlaghan they'd be registered in Carlow..
.
.
Title: Re: Offspring of John Dempsey and Elizabeth Reilly, 1878-1893 Laois/Wexford
Post by: hallmark on Friday 09 February 18 09:56 GMT (UK)
First, thank you for your kind and quick help! (I am a Dutchman, trying to piece together the 

Now knowing that I was on the wrong path, I looked again and found in the 1901 census
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Queen_s_Co_/Mountmellick_Rural/Avoley/1650174/ an Elizabeth Dempsey as a widow with two children.

Thanks again,

Nicolaas

Elizabeth...Widow, 8 children, 7 alive, 16 yrs married....

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Queen_s_Co_/Mountmellick_Rural/Avoley/793631/
Title: Re: Offspring of John Dempsey and Elizabeth Reilly, 1878-1893 Laois/Wexford
Post by: hallmark on Friday 09 February 18 10:09 GMT (UK)
Civil Reg Marriage results for Elizabeth Reilly from 1890 to 1898
1890s

Displaying results 1 - 72 of 72. http://www.rootschat.com/links/01lj5/

Not there!!
Title: Re: Offspring of John Dempsey and Elizabeth Reilly, 1878-1893 Laois/Wexford
Post by: Sinann on Friday 09 February 18 10:28 GMT (UK)
We have her marriage on page one, 1886 so that widow Elizabeth's children are too old.

They might have emigrated, I was looking at a couple in America but again the children were too old.

Title: Re: Offspring of John Dempsey and Elizabeth Reilly, 1878-1893 Laois/Wexford
Post by: Sinann on Friday 09 February 18 11:10 GMT (UK)
Than again can we be sure that is the correct marriage!
Title: Re: Offspring of John Dempsey and Elizabeth Reilly, 1878-1893 Laois/Wexford
Post by: hallmark on Friday 09 February 18 11:19 GMT (UK)
We have her marriage on page one, 1886 so that widow Elizabeth's children are too old.

They might have emigrated, I was looking at a couple in America but again the children were too old.

yes... I was just looking for that one, but not on Civil Reg!

With Census Links, Marriages, Births etc it's confusing as to who has been found, who has not!!

What is certain about Eliza(beth) Reilly (spelled Reiley on the marriage certificate) https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1886/10829/5949754.pdf is her baptism and her marriage on 9 March 1886 in the RC Chapel of Mayo, Reg.District Ballickmoyler in Co. Laois, with a John Dempsey, farmer, whose father, also John Dempsey, was also a farmer. Elizabeth's father was Thomas Reilly. Elizabeth and father Thomas lived in townland Dromagh.

What children have been found for this couple? only??
Title: Re: Offspring of John Dempsey and Elizabeth Reilly, 1878-1893 Laois/Wexford
Post by: NicolaasMars on Friday 09 February 18 11:28 GMT (UK)
Than again can we be sure that is the correct marriage!

I am reasonably convinced that the Eliza Reilly who married John Dempsey on 9 March 1886 in the RC Chapel of Mayo, Reg.District Ballickmoyler, Co. Laois, is the correct Elizabeth born 1853. The name and occupation of her father, and especially her townland at the time of the marriage, all fit.

That means that the widow Elizabeth Dempsey in the 1901 and 1911 census, Avoley, Mountmellick Rural, who had been married for 16 years in 1911, cannot be the correct Elizabeth.

The townland given in the baptism record for John Dempsey 1848 "Coorlane" fits the townland in his marriage record.


Nicolaas