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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: ianocon on Friday 09 February 18 03:35 GMT (UK)
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I have a birth cert for Mary Ann Connell Liverpool 1849 J 20 330. Father was John Connell.
Mary Ann was born 21/4/1849 at 58 Gascoyne St. Liverpool with mother Mary Connell formerly xxxxxx? The mothers name is something like Curree or Currie, whereas I had expected it to be Dempsy or Connors.
Is there any way of tracking down the mother's name? Presumably the GRO certificate is a copy of an entry - is it possible to get a view of the original entry for instance?
Would appreciate any ideas
Ian
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The GRO indexes give the mother's maiden surname as CURRIE. There are none with the maiden name DEMPSEY or CONNORS.
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/indexes_search.asp
Debra :)
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Thanks Debra - didn't realise I could get mothers name from the index - useful!
Ian
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There is a big gap between Children Bridget born 1839 Ireland and Mary Ann 1849 Lancashire.
Could John have married more than 1 Mary?
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Yes Trish I am working on that as a possibility. But having trouble finding who that could be.
It seemed to fit that Mary Ann could have been a Connell /Dempsey child (followed by Jeremiah in 1854 in Hackney) while Bridget was from a previous marriage. There is another tree which suggests Mary Connors but I can’t find support for that.However Currie is a new name and I can’t find any obvious links. I also don’t have a good birth reference for Bridget Connell in Ireland about 1838.
Any help unscrambling this would be much appreciated
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There is another child Michael b 1853 with mmn Curry.
Mary Ann and Michael both baptised St Mary’s but mother’s name not shown. Sometimes the mother’s name is in the register too.
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There is an 1854 birth for Jeremiah O’Connell in Hackney with mmn Dinse.
Would that be the Dempsey you have?
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Other children in the Hackney family have mmn Demsea or Dimpsey so it looks as though Mary Ann might not be of the same family.
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The online trees I've looked at seem to be totally up the pole.
Cannot find the family on census after 1851? Have you?
Annette
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Yes the same registrar for first three Hackney children wrote what he heard 3 different ways,
I think interpreting an Irish accent must have been difficult - John and Mary couldn’t write their names. Dempsey seems most likely and was common in Irish English language records particularly in Cork.
Had thought Liverpool family might have moved to Hackney for 1861 with Bridget leaving home and Mary Ann possibly deceased. Hence interest in Mary Ann birth mother. Now don’t think that likely.
Have also found difficulty with other trees. Still think Connell Dempsey marriage in Ballinhassig 1845 with possible children Margaret and Ellen born Innishannon (next door parish) is most likely. With parents moving to England at height of potato famine - that means children’s deaths too,
However have been looking for explanations for the long gaps. John 8 to 9 years older than Mary so he could have had first marriage befor Dempsey marriage but can’t get anything definite
Thanks for help. Ian
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I should have said Jeremiah's birth in Hackney was 10/3/1854 - too close to Michael (mother Curry in 1853 J qtr) found by Heywood, to be likely same family. It seems clear this was a different family in Liverpool and can't find logical 1861 reference for them in Liverpool so will reject that option.
Question remains - where were Hackney family in 1851. Answering that could give the needed link back to origins in ireland.
Can't see them in England 1851 or 1841 and John and that Mary (Dempsy) both born Ireland (Cork) so probably still in Ireland - which is why there is some logic to the idea they are the Ballinhassig Cork couple with Margaret born 28 Jan 1846 and Ellen born 12 Aug 1848. 6 years between 1848 and 1854 is quite a gap so looked for more births but couldn't see any.
If they emigrated after 1851 they wouldn't have appeared in the England census - is there 1851 census info from Ireland?
Also, if it's the same family both these children had gone from the family by 1861 census in Hackney and I've thought it's possible they died what with the famine and poverty
Am I right there is no way to get death info from Ireland in the years 1848 to 1854?
This search is trying to develop the link between the Connell/Dempsey in Innishannon Ireland and the one in Hackney but it's possible there is no connection in which case I need to find another Connell/Dempsey marriage (that is assuming they did marry!) in Ireland or England. Haven't had much luck with that.
Ian
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As Michael was born 1st April 1853 ie 11 months before Jeremiah, in that era it is possible for them to be brothers so perhaps don't dismiss it for that reason
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Excuse delay in reply to Annette7's question.
I have not been able to find the Liverpool family in 1861 or in 1871.
In 1861 would be John Connell 43, Mary Connell 40, Bridget 22, Mary Ann 12, Michael 7/8
or some of these, since Bridget would quite likely have left home.
Any help to find them would be appreciated since if i could find them it would confirm they must have been a different family from my Hackney Connells.
What would be most help of all would be to find a plausible John and Mary in 1841 with Bridget age 2 either in England (Liverpool?) or Ireland.
Is there census info from Ireland?
Ian
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I am trying to tune in again but failing to find your Hackney family in 1861 at the moment ::)
Please will you give the reference.
Is your aim to prove the Connell/Dempsey family in Hackney are the ones in Ballinhassig.
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Births Hackney
June 1852 1b/ 271 Jeremiah Conall mmn Dimsey
March 1854 1b/317 Jeremiah O’ Connell mmn Dinse
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Found them now in 1861 158/46/16
The children there Jeremiah, John and James fit with GRO mmn Dempsey (variations) but I wonder now about the two Jeremiah births as I cannot see a death between the two birth records :-\
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Yes, I am trying to prove the O'Connells in Hackney are the ones in Ballinhassig.
The second Jeremiah 1852 reference (thanks for that) is a surprise and I have sent for the PDF certificate from the GRO. I have the other birth cert for Jeremiah 1854 which is consistent with location and his brothers and is first clear date for Hackney family so far.
I am trying to fill in the large gap between Ballinhassig dates m. 1845 and Hackney 1854 and thought the info in other trees might help. But not sure of that anymore.
John and Mary possibly had children Margaret b.1846 and Ellen b.1848 in Innishannon (next door parish to Ballinhassig) but can't find what happened to them and they are not in 1851 Hackney census.
If the children died - not so unreasonable given the 1840s conditions in Cork - then it could make sense J&M then moved to England with no children in the early 1850s but don't know how to evaluate that.
In addition, John Connell b. abt 1816 was about 10 years older than Mary - so had time for a first marriage and possibly a family in Ireland before marrying Dempsey in 1845. That's why I've been considering the other tree suggestions and particularly the one with Bridget b,abt 1839 who had John and Mary parents in Liverpool in 1851. However, I think I have shown that was Mary Curry and another family.
Now feeling a bit stumped and not sure where to go next!
Thanks for help
Ian
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Hi Heywood
I followed up your finding of another Jeremiah's birth - so I have the 2 certificates.
J 1852 1b 271 - Jeremiah b 24 April 1852 at 4 Jerusalem Gdns Hackney to John Conall labourer and Mary Conall formerly Dimsey
M 1854 1b 317 - Jeremiah b 4 March 1854 at 1 Bells Yard, Church St Hackney to John O'Connell Labourer and Mary Dinse
Jerusalem Gdns and Bells Yard were adjacent and John and Mary lived there in censuses and for other births so am sure this will be the same family.
So best guess would be 1852 Jeremiah is an earlier birth and child died but there should be a death record - I can't see it either. There can't be another explanation can there?.
This at least tells me they were together and in London (and not Liverpool) 2 years earlier than I knew before so narrows the gap in their history.